[...] By the way, how can you gain additional uses of bonus actions? in 2014 Action Surge had wording that granted additional action and bonus action if you didn’t have the ability to take a BA, but that wording was removed for various reasons. So how can you use a bonus action to TWF and a bonus action in Dual Wielding Feat? ( The rules for Bouns Actions still apply, for none of the aforementioned features actually alter the BA rules, and Nick only changes the TWF economy not the actual BA rules. )
Let me take Advantage of something that was originally said by jl8e in the previous quoted text:
[...] Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack. [...]
Okay so I think I'm seeing what's throwing me off.
I was under the impression that making an attack with the Nick weapon enabled the offhand attack, but it's actually the reverse, apparently.
The sequence for Nick apparently works as follows,
Attack Action, swing with (insert light weapon here) in main hand, the Nick weapon mastery activates on your Offhand, allowing you to make your "offhand attack" within your Attack Action instead of your bonus action. And if you have an Extra attack feature in your Attacks action, any additional attacks can be with whatever weapon on you.
Apart form Jounichi's explanation, if it's useful for you, in one of the DDB threads about Nick (Dual wield, Nick and light weapons), there's a good example combining Light, Nick and Dual Wielder Feat:
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
Look at the nested post and follow the number sequence. Ether you’re using a bonus action for # 2 and # 4 ( double bonus use, illegal by RAW) and/or your double dipping the Nick Mastery.
RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.
DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
Shadow blade doesn't necessarily let you create a weapon to particular stats of your choice outside of how you flavor it's appearance. It creates a 2d8+Dex weapon with the light, thrown, and finesse properties. The only part of that which makes it relevant to discussion is that it has the Light property, meaning for the purpose of the Nick Mastery weapon, it qualifies as a "separate Light weapon".
Text from Shadow Blade( XGtE ):
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you a re proficient. … and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).
The list of RAW Simple Melee Weapons that have the same relative weapon properties are the aforementioned Dagger, Light Mace, and Sickle ( that according to 2024 also has the Nick Mastery )
[ Note: A Scimitar is considered a Martial Melee Weapon not a Simple Melee Weapon, but because Shadow Blade auto grants proficiency with the conjuring weapon, one could debate the spell turns a Scimitar into a Simple Melee Weapon for purposes of allowing the greater damage.]
Let's break this down.
Shadow Blade is a 2014 spell and needs to be evaluated with those rules in mind.
"You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand." This is not a weapon of your choice. It is a shadow sword.
"It counts as a simple melee weapon..." for any weapon effects, it counts as a simple weapon.
"... with which you are proficient." Wizards and Sorcerers in 2014 were only proficient with Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows so they did not automatically have proficiency in simple weapons. It was necessary in the 2014 rule set to say that the caster has proficiency in the weapon or they would not be able to add their proficiency bonus on the attack rolls.
"[it] has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60)." This shadow sword simple weapon has the finesse, light, and thrown weapon properties.
You never get a choice in the weapon. It is always a magic shadow sword and you can't pick what properties it has, they are specified in the spell. When it is updated for 2024, it will probably lose the clause about proficiency because it is no longer necessary. It might get a Weapon Mastery, but it is unlikely to be unlocked simply by casting the spell.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
The Article aforementioned and cited actually does state that using Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action. If you can’t use bonus actions, then nick can’t be triggered to Multi-attack. That means you have to choose to ether multi-attack single action or single attack and bonus action dual wield nick granting 3 attacks before any class or creature ability grants extra attacks.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Nowhere does the article say that you need to be able to take a bonus action to make the extra attack from the Light weapon if you are using a Nick weapon for one of those attacks. It says that if you are making an additional attack due to a Light Weapon, you need a Bonus Action, if you aren't benefiting from the Nick Weapon Mastery. If Nick Mastery applies, the extra attack no longer uses a Bonus Action and, in fact, benefits from being part of the Attack action, allowing you to move between attacks and draw/drop/stow weapons before or after each attack. If some effect prevents you from using Bonus Actions, you are still eligible to use the extra attack from Light if you can benefit from the Nick Mastery (you have a Nick weapon and currently know the Nick Mastery).
Nick does not specify that you need to attack with the Nick weapon first nor that you need to attack with it as part of the extra attack from the Light weapon Property. RAW is that you need to make one of the attacks with the Nick weapon, but which one doesn't matter. Whichever weapon you use as the addition Light attack needs to be after the attack that enables the secondary attack; Nick doesn't change that.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.
DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.
If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.
I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.
If the Nick Mastery doesn't apply, you need to use a Bonus Action to make this attack and your Bonus Action is not available for other activities, such as the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielding.
If you are benefitting from Nick, this extra attack does not use a Bonus Action and it is available to use.
The once per round limit from Nick only applies to the extra attack from the Light Property and only that source of extra attacks.
Effectively the Light property with Nick reads like this:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Actionpart of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you an extra attack.
this extra attack always requires that you use a Bonus Action to make the attack.
In order to make this extra attack, you must use the Attack and attack with a Light weapon, but it does not use or change the extra attack from the Light weapon property. Notice how Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." and Enhanced Dual Wielding says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property...", Nick changes the behavior of the Light property, but Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a separate source of an extra attack.
Because Nick removes the Bonus Action requirement of the extra attack from the Light property, they can be combined.
A level 20 Fighter has 4 attacks per turn.
With a level 20 Fighter and the Nick Weapon Mastery, that becomes 5 attacks with an Attack action.
With a level 20 Fighter that has the Nick Mastery and using a Bonus Action for Enhanced Dual Wielding, that becomes 6 attacks per turn.
If the same Fighter uses an Action Surge, they can use an additional Attack action to get 4 more attacks (a total of 10) because Nick limited the extra attack from the Light weapon property to once per turn.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are. You have your order of operations wrong if you think a first attack with a weapon with the Nick mastery grants permission to shift an attack with a different weapon which lacks the Nick mastery from the Bonus Action to the Attack action.
And as far as I can tell, the Dual Wielder feat hasn't actually been mentioned. It's superfluous to this discussion.
RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.
DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.
If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.
I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.
If the Nick Mastery doesn't apply, you need to use a Bonus Action to make this attack and your Bonus Action is not available for other activities, such as the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielding.
If you are benefitting from Nick, this extra attack does not use a Bonus Action and it is available to use.
The once per round limit from Nick only applies to the extra attack from the Light Property and only that source of extra attacks.
Effectively the Light property with Nick reads like this:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Actionpart of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you an extra attack.
this extra attack always requires that you use a Bonus Action to make the attack.
In order to make this extra attack, you must use the Attack and attack with a Light weapon, but it does not use or change the extra attack from the Light weapon property. Notice how Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." and Enhanced Dual Wielding says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property...", Nick changes the behavior of the Light property, but Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a separate source of an extra attack.
Because Nick removes the Bonus Action requirement of the extra attack from the Light property, they can be combined.
A level 20 Fighter has 4 attacks per turn.
With a level 20 Fighter and the Nick Weapon Mastery, that becomes 5 attacks with an Attack action.
With a level 20 Fighter that has the Nick Mastery and using a Bonus Action for Enhanced Dual Wielding, that becomes 6 attacks per turn.
If the same Fighter uses an Action Surge, they can use an additional Attack action to get 4 more attacks (a total of 10) because Nick limited the extra attack from the Light weapon property to once per turn.
Does that help?
You left out the DW section that states the extra attack uses the bonus action.
so if you don’t attack with the nick weapon first, by TWF you have to use your Bonus Action to attack with the Nick Weapon and can’t take the extra bonus action attack nick can transfer.
Same with DW, if the initial attack isn’t a nick weapon, then you have to use your bonus action to attack with the nick weapon but still can’t take the extra bonus action attack transfer because you can’t take a second bonus action.
Ether your double dipping nick, or double dipping the bonus action if you attempt to use nick second.
Easy example: 1st level fighter. One weapon is a Scimitar and the second is a ShortSword.
Both are light correct, so that allows the Light Property of TWF correct, then the question is which weapon to use first?
Nick is the mastery property of some light weapons, because not all light weapons have the nick mastery, right?
So in order to use the nick weapon mastery, the weapon that has the nick mastery must be used to enable the ability, right?
is just holding the weapon enough to enable the mastery? No, because of the fact that Nick uses as it’s first sentence the Light Property to effectively create a workable effect like the other mastery effects that state “ when you attack with the weapon, “
meaning to use the nick ability you have to use that weapon with nick first to transfer the bonus action to the main action leaving the bonus action free. 2 attacks for 1 action but only if nick is used first.
If you have to use the bonus action to make an attack, using a nick weapon is pointless, because you are using the bonus action to attack and can’t make “ … a bonus action extra attack…” a second time. That only means you can make a single attack as a bonus action, and Nick can’t be used.
Nick weapon first, double attack ( 2 for 1 Action) then bonus action ( ether TWF or DWe bonus action to make 3rd attack. )
And thats just a 1st level fighter, by 2nd level that jumps to 4, because Action Surge only resets the attack action and the bonus action reset was dropped, so no double dipping bonus actions.( which would complicate matters, but by making nick a number of proficiency uses per short rest, and fun times for all. )
by level 5 with extra attack feature, the math gets wonky because of how Bonus Action economy works, but it would be at least 5 attacks. ( attack ( 1 attack down), 5th level extra attack nick first 2:1( 3 attacks so far), bonus action attack ( 4 attacks so far), surge ( two more regular attacks for a total of 6 attacks. ) and thats by 5th level.
[ it’s better to use the nick ability in the very last regular attack than to burn it early for fighters because of surge, everyone else has to decide which bonus action is better served; casting a spell that allows an attack that nick might enhance, leaving the BA for something else, or burn the BA before the main action and not being able to use any feature that grants a bonus action Whatsoever afterwards. ( even the 24 rules stick to the one and only one BA rules, even if nick transfers a bonus action to main action, and can only be done once.) ]
So that is how IMHO it’s intended to work, otherwise the ability to ether be double dipping BA’s or Nick is occurring and getting the math wrong.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The problem is Nick turns two weapon fighting into a Multi-Attack action, and basically removes the Light Weapon bonus action choice of an extra attack.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
Considering that Shadow Blade has to be a Simple Melee Weapon, and only three simple melee weapons are considered light and have nick as a mastery, a dagger being the closest match to the weapon Shadow Blade creates given the weapon properties granted, then wouldn’t someone who can use weapon mastery use a Shadow Blade Dagger weapon and still use the Nick mastery?
Shadow blade doesn't necessarily let you create a weapon to particular stats of your choice outside of how you flavor it's appearance. It creates a 2d8+Dex weapon with the light, thrown, and finesse properties. The only part of that which makes it relevant to discussion is that it has the Light property, meaning for the purpose of the Nick Mastery weapon, it qualifies as a "separate Light weapon".
Text from Shadow Blade( XGtE ):
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you a re proficient. … and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).
The list of RAW Simple Melee Weapons that have the same relative weapon properties are the aforementioned Dagger, Light Mace, and Sickle ( that according to 2024 also has the Nick Mastery )
[ Note: A Scimitar is considered a Martial Melee Weapon not a Simple Melee Weapon, but because Shadow Blade auto grants proficiency with the conjuring weapon, one could debate the spell turns a Scimitar into a Simple Melee Weapon for purposes of allowing the greater damage.]
Let's break this down.
Shadow Blade is a 2014 spell and needs to be evaluated with those rules in mind.
"You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand." This is not a weapon of your choice. It is a shadow sword.
"It counts as a simple melee weapon..." for any weapon effects, it counts as a simple weapon.
"... with which you are proficient." Wizards and Sorcerers in 2014 were only proficient with Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows so they did not automatically have proficiency in simple weapons. It was necessary in the 2014 rule set to say that the caster has proficiency in the weapon or they would not be able to add their proficiency bonus on the attack rolls.
"[it] has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60)." This shadow sword simple weapon has the finesse, light, and thrown weapon properties.
You never get a choice in the weapon. It is always a magic shadow sword and you can't pick what properties it has, they are specified in the spell. When it is updated for 2024, it will probably lose the clause about proficiency because it is no longer necessary. It might get a Weapon Mastery, but it is unlikely to be unlocked simply by casting the spell.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
The Article aforementioned and cited actually does state that using Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action. If you can’t use bonus actions, then nick can’t be triggered to Multi-attack. That means you have to choose to ether multi-attack single action or single attack and bonus action dual wield nick granting 3 attacks before any class or creature ability grants extra attacks.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Nowhere does the article say that you need to be able to take a bonus action to make the extra attack from the Light weapon if you are using a Nick weapon for one of those attacks. It says that if you are making an additional attack due to a Light Weapon, you need a Bonus Action, if you aren't benefiting from the Nick Weapon Mastery. If Nick Mastery applies, the extra attack no longer uses a Bonus Action and, in fact, benefits from being part of the Attack action, allowing you to move between attacks and draw/drop/stow weapons before or after each attack. If some effect prevents you from using Bonus Actions, you are still eligible to use the extra attack from Light if you can benefit from the Nick Mastery (you have a Nick weapon and currently know the Nick Mastery).
Nick does not specify that you need to attack with the Nick weapon first nor that you need to attack with it as part of the extra attack from the Light weapon Property. RAW is that you need to make one of the attacks with the Nick weapon, but which one doesn't matter. Whichever weapon you use as the addition Light attack needs to be after the attack that enables the secondary attack; Nick doesn't change that.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
Improvised Weapons ( 2014, couldn’t find 2024 ):
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This means that Shadow Blade by DM fiat can be considered a weapon beyond the normal class provided weapon proficiencies, and because of the specific spell description, could by fiat be considered as a weapon like a Scimitar.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are. You have your order of operations wrong if you think a first attack with a weapon with the Nick mastery grants permission to shift an attack with a different weapon which lacks the Nick mastery from the Bonus Action to the Attack action.
It should not need to be stated that a rule has to be written for it to be Rules As Written, but here we are.
Cleave: If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, ...
Graze: If your attack roll with this weapon misses a creature, you can deal damage to that creature equal to the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll. This damage is the same type dealt by the weapon, and the damage can be increased only by increasing the ability modifier.
Nick: We'll come back to this one.
Push: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Sap: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Slow: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Topple: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Vex: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Nick does not say "with this weapon".
There are three possible interpretations of that omission.
Nick must be used in the initial attack in order to change the extra attack from the Light property to part of the Attack Action. If the Nick weapon is not used during the Attack action, the Attack action completes, and it is too late for Nick to change the extra attack from a Bonus Action.
Nick must be used as the extra attack in order to change the extra attack from the Light property to part of the Attack Action.
Nick allows the extra attack from Light to be included as part of the Attack action as long as the Nick weapon is used as either the initial attack or the extra attack; it doesn't matter which.
The Nick rules do not state a required sequence so there is no RAW required sequence, there is no evidence that RAI it should be a set sequence, and I don't see any glaring exploit to be had allowing one sequence over another or allowing for interchangeable sequence.
If a character has X attacks as part of a normal Attack action, then:
If they don't have the two-weapon fighting style, if all attacks hit, they will add X times their weapon damage rolls plus their attribute modifier plus one more weapon damage roll.
If they do have the two-weapon fighting style, if all attacks hit, they will add their attribute modifier one more time.
Changing the sequence doesn't cause the amount of damage to spike suddenly. It may allow the character to keep Advantage on nearly every other attack, but even that's not guaranteed. In order to have advantage via weapon mastery, you need to hit with a Vex weapon and if you are alternating with Nick, the Vex attack will never be with advantage.
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This means that Shadow Blade by DM fiat can be considered a weapon beyond the normal class provided weapon proficiencies, and because of the specific spell description, could by fiat be considered as a weapon like a Scimitar.
I wouldn't count a spell effect as an object, but even if you did, that would mean that the Shadow Blade would deal 1d6 Slashing damage instead of 2d8 psychic damage. You don't get to only apply part of the rule.
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This means that Shadow Blade by DM fiat can be considered a weapon beyond the normal class provided weapon proficiencies, and because of the specific spell description, could by fiat be considered as a weapon like a Scimitar.
I wouldn't count a spell effect as an object, but even if you did, that would mean that the Shadow Blade would deal 1d6 Slashing damage instead of 2d8 psychic damage. You don't get to only apply part of the rule.
I really do hate they moved things to the glossary, it just janks things up, should be in the weapons section clear as day. But as far as the weapon damage, the spell overrides the general rule of improvised weapons, by changing both the die count and damage type. ( the improv rule could by DM fiat also allow the weapon to gain a mastery, per 2024 rules. )
this is the post that contains the Article link that talks about nick. It uses the phrase Dual wielding but it is actually referring to the Light Weapon Property of Two Weapon Fighting ( and because Dual Wielding Feat enhanced uses the same wording, it confuses the situation.)
But in a nutshell, TWF and DWFe both say that the additional attack is a bonus action, meaning the nick weapon has to be used first for the nick ability to move the additional attack to the main attack so a bonus action can be used later for something else.
It functions this way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action, That additional attack must be made with a different Light weapon.
Edit: DWFe changes the second different weapon from light to anything other than two-handed weapons. ( and again spelling checks. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
this is the post that contains the Article link that talks about nick. It uses the phrase Dual wielding but it is actually referring to the Light Weapon Property of Two Weapon Fighting ( and because Dual Wielding Feat enhanced uses the same wording, it confuses the situation.)
I don't think it's that confusing. The extra attack from the Light property can be made with a single hand because of the free weapon interaction rules as part of the attack action, but it is intended to represent fighting with a weapon in each hand. The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat and Dual Wielder feat enhance fighting with two weapons. The Light property is where the rules for fighting with two weapons live now.
2014 Two-Weapon Fighting. Dual Wielder lets you use Two-Weapon Fighting when the one-handed melee weapon is not light. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
2024 Light Weapon Property. Dual Wielder lets you use make an extra attack with a weapon that does not have the two-handed property. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
The Dual Wielder feat has changed slightly but otherwise the Two-weapon Fighting rules are the same from 2014 with the Nick Weapon Mastery being added as a new addition. The Light weapon property is an odd place to put the basic two-weapon fighting rules, but maybe it will get more visibility than it did before.
this is the post that contains the Article link that talks about nick. It uses the phrase Dual wielding but it is actually referring to the Light Weapon Property of Two Weapon Fighting ( and because Dual Wielding Feat enhanced uses the same wording, it confuses the situation.)
I don't think it's that confusing. The extra attack from the Light property can be made with a single hand because of the free weapon interaction rules as part of the attack action, but it is intended to represent fighting with a weapon in each hand. The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat and Dual Wielder feat enhance fighting with two weapons. The Light property is where the rules for fighting with two weapons live now.
2014 Two-Weapon Fighting. Dual Wielder lets you use Two-Weapon Fighting when the one-handed melee weapon is not light. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
2024 Light Weapon Property. Dual Wielder lets you use make an extra attack with a weapon that does not have the two-handed property. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
The Dual Wielder feat has changed slightly but otherwise the Two-weapon Fighting rules are the same from 2014 with the Nick Weapon Mastery being added as a new addition. The Light weapon property is an odd place to put the basic two-weapon fighting rules, but maybe it will get more visibility than it did before.
Well in 2024 weapon mastery is introduced, and most masteries are tied to weapon properties, in 2014 Light doesn’t really have a property.
Backdoor solution, give Light Property TWF and tie Nick to that. Ok but problem, how to design it so you don’t get a situation where the player can twist the rules to effectively make unintended extra attacks indefinitely against a single opponent and tie nick to a weapon use at the same time like the other masteries?
Force nicking weapon to have to be used first, that way you have to have the ability to use a bonus action to utilize the weapon mastery, otherwise anything else can cause a case where some other rule or rules are being violated, potentially causing unintended affects.
Because they moved TWF to the Light Property, and because 2014 Dual Wielding allowed both weapons to not longer be both light weapons, then for 2024 DWF you had to basically copy the now moved TWF general ability into the DW feat to still enable some ability to attack with two weapons that are not light weapons. The enhancement just allows for a light nick weapon to move the additional second non light weapon attack to the main attack action and freeing the bonus action to be used to make one additional weapon attack.
So overall it’s a situation where different parts of rules placed in different areas, are brought together to form a unique rule that is somewhat similar to other common rules, aka the weapon used to make the attack that other masteries have, they just tied it to first attack that is made.
It’s confusing because of how the words “extra attack” were used, instead if “additional attack” were used, IMHO it would make the ability sound more like the intended effect.
( try it, just replace. “Extra attack” in Light prop, Nick Prop, and DWFe and see if the ability sounds better. )
If you attempt to use Nick after using a bonus action, then the additional attack can’t be made, because nick requires the ability to use a bonus action to make an additional attack. ( this is known in game design as circular referencing, and without constraints can be easily abused, thus the requirement of needing to be able to make a bonus action to use nick. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
And if you’re not Dual wielding, then unless you have a class/creature feature that grants an extra bonus action ability to attack, then the Nick Weapon is the one that would need to be used in the initial action to grant the Weapon Mastery feature.
That is not stated anywhere. If it is clarified later, I would expect that Nick needs to be used in the extra attack.
The Article aforementioned and cited actually does state that using Nick requires the ability to use a bonus action. If you can’t use bonus actions, then nick can’t be triggered to Multi-attack. That means you have to choose to ether multi-attack single action or single attack and bonus action dual wield nick granting 3 attacks before any class or creature ability grants extra attacks.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Nowhere does the article say that you need to be able to take a bonus action to make the extra attack from the Light weapon if you are using a Nick weapon for one of those attacks. It says that if you are making an additional attack due to a Light Weapon, you need a Bonus Action, if you aren't benefiting from the Nick Weapon Mastery. If Nick Mastery applies, the extra attack no longer uses a Bonus Action and, in fact, benefits from being part of the Attack action, allowing you to move between attacks and draw/drop/stow weapons before or after each attack. If some effect prevents you from using Bonus Actions, you are still eligible to use the extra attack from Light if you can benefit from the Nick Mastery (you have a Nick weapon and currently know the Nick Mastery). [...]
If you attempt to use Nick after using a bonus action, then the additional attack can’t be made, because nick requires the ability to use a bonus action to make an additional attack. ( this is known in game design as circular referencing, and without constraints can be easily abused, thus the requirement of needing to be able to make a bonus action to use nick. )
Well that certainly isn't how the rule works currently (and I'm not sure I see anything positive about creating a rule that says so).
It’s confusing because of how the words “extra attack” were used, instead if “additional attack” were used, IMHO it would make the ability sound more like the intended effect.
( try it, just replace. “Extra attack” in Light prop, Nick Prop, and DWFe and see if the ability sounds better. )
As much as I agree that they should have used "additional attack" I see this only being an issue for newer players. As soon as you understand the rules well enough to realise that they should have used "additional attack" instead or "extra attack" to differentiate it from "Extra Attack" then you also know the rules well enough that you should be able to not be tripped up by the issue.
So just making sure I am interpreting a Nick example correctly.
Attack action (with Extra Attack)
Main hand attack (light weapon)
Follow-up Nick offhand
Second Attack within Extra Attack, either weapon
And NOT
Nick main hand
Misc. Light offhand
Second attack either weapon
Bonus action: literally anything else available to you besides the offhand (unless a feat or feature provides otherwise)
As you're reading through the thread, it depends on whether limits are imposed on the Nick order. I already gave my opinion in post 3 so I think your first option is the right one.
There are also some recent threads on this topic if you'd like to read other opinions:
If you attempt to use Nick after using a bonus action, then the additional attack can’t be made, because nick requires the ability to use a bonus action to make an additional attack. ( this is known in game design as circular referencing, and without constraints can be easily abused, thus the requirement of needing to be able to make a bonus action to use nick. )
Well that certainly isn't how the rule works currently (and I'm not sure I see anything positive about creating a rule that says so).
It’s confusing because of how the words “extra attack” were used, instead if “additional attack” were used, IMHO it would make the ability sound more like the intended effect.
( try it, just replace. “Extra attack” in Light prop, Nick Prop, and DWFe and see if the ability sounds better. )
As much as I agree that they should have used "additional attack" I see this only being an issue for newer players. As soon as you understand the rules well enough to realise that they should have used "additional attack" instead or "extra attack" to differentiate it from "Extra Attack" then you also know the rules well enough that you should be able to not be tripped up by the issue.
And therein lies the confusion, the ability to two weapon fight was placed in the Light Prop so Nick can have an attack to use it’s feature, and Light prop was available.
But both the Light Prop and Nick relies on a character having the ability to use a bonus action, it’s referred to in both, and if you use a Bonus Action before you are granted the ability to make an additional/extra attack, then how can you use a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack? Remember the general rules still say you get only one bonus action, choose wisely. If you use the bonus action to do anything else before using two weapon fighting, the ability as a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack is impossible. [ you wouldn’t have a bonus action to make the second attack, and the Light prop and Dual Wielding feat only grant an additional/extra attack as an action that can be taken as a bonus. ] That doesn’t mean others are wrong, just confused about why Nick doesn’t explicitly state like other Masteries why an attack is not referred to. But, an attack is referenced. It’s in the very first sentence of Nick up to the first comma, the first attack from Light prop, then nick explains how the second attack by different weapon can be used in the main action instead of using a bonus action instead. That leaves the bonus action available for use by other features.
And technically, both of the mentioned bonus attacks from Light TWF and Dual Wielding Feat could still be used, but the weapon in those attacks are made with the second different weapon.
Weapon swapping can happen, but then you’re changing your action economy and might forget about what actions you previously used. I get players want more attacks and more damage, but attempting to get that by circumventing other rules just leads to future design flaws that will eventually become further problematic issues.
[ That’s why IMO, Dual Wielding Feat enhanced has the wording like it does. one light weapon in one hand ( possible nick weapon) and a second different weapon ( non two-handed, say a longSword ) so that by using the nick weapon first, invoking the mastery you get both the nick and longsword attacks in the first action followed by a bonus action additional / extra attack with the longsword, IMO. ]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
But both the Light Prop and Nick relies on a character having the ability to use a bonus action, it’s referred to in both, and if you use a Bonus Action before you are granted the ability to make an additional/extra attack, then how can you use a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack? Remember the general rules still say you get only one bonus action, choose wisely. If you use the bonus action to do anything else before using two weapon fighting, the ability as a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack is impossible. [ you wouldn’t have a bonus action to make the second attack, and the Light prop and Dual Wielding feat only grant an additional/extra attack as an action that can be taken as a bonus. ]
Nah this is just wrong. Having several features that grants you a possible Bonus Action is not a problem, they do not compete with each other. And having taken a Bonus Action on your turn does not stop you from still having features that grant you a possible Bonus Action nor does it disable those features or anything similar, you simply cannot take another Bonus Action that turn. Nick however doesn't use a Bonus Action, it uses the Attack Action.
But both the Light Prop and Nick relies on a character having the ability to use a bonus action, it’s referred to in both, and if you use a Bonus Action before you are granted the ability to make an additional/extra attack, then how can you use a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack? Remember the general rules still say you get only one bonus action, choose wisely. If you use the bonus action to do anything else before using two weapon fighting, the ability as a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack is impossible. [ you wouldn’t have a bonus action to make the second attack, and the Light prop and Dual Wielding feat only grant an additional/extra attack as an action that can be taken as a bonus. ]
Nah this is just wrong. Having several features that grants you a possible Bonus Action is not a problem, they do not compete with each other. And having taken a Bonus Action on your turn does not stop you from still having features that grant you a possible Bonus Action nor does it disable those features or anything similar, you simply cannot take another Bonus Action that turn. Nick however doesn't use a Bonus Action, it uses the Attack Action.
If you can’t make a bonus action attack, then how can Nick move that attack to the Attack Action? Never said Nick itself uses a bonus action, just that it requires the ability to take a bonus actions so you have the ability to as a bonus action make an additional/extra attack that can be used by the Nick weapon in the main attack action.
Without the ability to make any type of bonus action, the Nick ability can’t move a bonus attack you can’t take to the main attack action.
And if you don’t mind, I’d prefer if whole post are quoted not just portions that attempt to misrepresent the context of the post, please.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Nick uses the Light Property. The Light Property is the former Tow-Weapon Fighting Mechanic of 2014 5e, and the wording of the Nick Weapon Mastery most definitely needs to be addressed.
Btw, find it funny that Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back of the 2024 PHB and nowhere in the Free Rules except if you know what you're looking for.
And yet I can find Bonus Action in the FreeRules, that points to Actions that has more detail. ( glossary is minimal, and has a person jumping around trying to figure it out. Just [ very Sarcastic] wow. )
Nick: ( remastered); Prerequisites: use of Bonus Actions
When you make the attack of the Light Property, you can make the additional bonus action attack as an extra attack on the initial attack action. This can be done only once per turn and it does not use your bonus action.
There fixed it for ya.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
If you can’t make a bonus action attack, then how can Nick move that attack to the Attack Action? Never said Nick itself uses a bonus action, just that it requires the ability to take a bonus actions so you have the ability to as a bonus action make an additional/extra attack that can be used by the Nick weapon in the main attack action.
You don't need to be able to use a Bonus Action until you do something that actual uses the Bonus Action. If you make an attack with a Light weapon and the Nick Mastery applies to either the initial weapon or the weapon you are making the extra attack, you do not need to expend a Bonus Action and whether you have a Bonus Action or not doesn't matter.
Btw, find it funny that Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back of the 2024 PHB and nowhere in the Free Rules except if you know what you're looking for.
I don't see Two-weapon Fighting anywhere in the back of the 2024 PHB except for the Two-weapon Fighting [Fighting Style] Feat. I think this was the part of the reason for moving around the rules. In 2014, Two-Weapon Fighting could refer to the generic rule or to the Fighting Style.
Nick: ( remastered); Prerequisites: use of Bonus Actions
When you make the attack of the Light Property, you can make the additional bonus action attack as an extra attack on the initial attack action. This can be done only once per turn and it does not use your bonus action.
There fixed it for ya.
This is incorrect because Nick does not require the use of Bonus Action. Independent of that "Prerequisites: use of Bonus Action" would mean that you would have to use a Bonus Action to activate Nick (which again, you don't) and that conflicts with "and it does not use your bonus action." There is no such thing as a bonus action attack. The Light property gives you an attack and to use that attack, you have to expend a Bonus Action. If the Nick Mastery applies, the Light property gives you an extra attack once per turn and if you already expended your bonus action or some effect prevented you from using Bonus Actions, it would not prevent the extra attack from the Light property with the Nick Mastery.
You haven't fixed the wording. You have changed the wording to say something multiple people have tried to explain that it does not say.
If you are making the extra attack from the Light property with the [wprop]Nick[/wrprop], the combined rules become:
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action part of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Actionextra attack unless that modifier is negative.
That is all there is to it. Nothing ever requires the character to be able to potentially take a certain action, bonus action, or reaction. The only requirements are to actually take those actions, bonus actions, or reactions. Once something removes the action, bonus action, or reaction requirement, the requirement to potentially take actions, bonus actions, or reactions is removed because that requirement never existed independently of the actual action requirements.
Look at the nested post and follow the number sequence. Ether you’re using a bonus action for # 2 and # 4 ( double bonus use, illegal by RAW) and/or your double dipping the Nick Mastery.
RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.
DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Let's break this down.
You never get a choice in the weapon. It is always a magic shadow sword and you can't pick what properties it has, they are specified in the spell. When it is updated for 2024, it will probably lose the clause about proficiency because it is no longer necessary. It might get a Weapon Mastery, but it is unlikely to be unlocked simply by casting the spell.
Nowhere does the article say that you need to be able to take a bonus action to make the extra attack from the Light weapon if you are using a Nick weapon for one of those attacks. It says that if you are making an additional attack due to a Light Weapon, you need a Bonus Action, if you aren't benefiting from the Nick Weapon Mastery. If Nick Mastery applies, the extra attack no longer uses a Bonus Action and, in fact, benefits from being part of the Attack action, allowing you to move between attacks and draw/drop/stow weapons before or after each attack. If some effect prevents you from using Bonus Actions, you are still eligible to use the extra attack from Light if you can benefit from the Nick Mastery (you have a Nick weapon and currently know the Nick Mastery).
Nick does not specify that you need to attack with the Nick weapon first nor that you need to attack with it as part of the extra attack from the Light weapon Property. RAW is that you need to make one of the attacks with the Nick weapon, but which one doesn't matter. Whichever weapon you use as the addition Light attack needs to be after the attack that enables the secondary attack; Nick doesn't change that.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
How to add Tooltips.
If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.
I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.
a Bonus Actionpart of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."Does that help?
How to add Tooltips.
So just making sure I am interpreting a Nick example correctly.
Attack action (with Extra Attack)
Main hand attack (light weapon)
Follow-up Nick offhand
Second Attack within Extra Attack, either weapon
And NOT
Nick main hand
Misc. Light offhand
Second attack either weapon
Bonus action: literally anything else available to you besides the offhand (unless a feat or feature provides otherwise)
It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are. You have your order of operations wrong if you think a first attack with a weapon with the Nick mastery grants permission to shift an attack with a different weapon which lacks the Nick mastery from the Bonus Action to the Attack action.
And as far as I can tell, the Dual Wielder feat hasn't actually been mentioned. It's superfluous to this discussion.
You left out the DW section that states the extra attack uses the bonus action.
so if you don’t attack with the nick weapon first, by TWF you have to use your Bonus Action to attack with the Nick Weapon and can’t take the extra bonus action attack nick can transfer.
Same with DW, if the initial attack isn’t a nick weapon, then you have to use your bonus action to attack with the nick weapon but still can’t take the extra bonus action attack transfer because you can’t take a second bonus action.
Ether your double dipping nick, or double dipping the bonus action if you attempt to use nick second.
Easy example: 1st level fighter.
One weapon is a Scimitar and the second is a ShortSword.
Both are light correct, so that allows the Light Property of TWF correct, then the question is which weapon to use first?
Nick is the mastery property of some light weapons, because not all light weapons have the nick mastery, right?
So in order to use the nick weapon mastery, the weapon that has the nick mastery must be used to enable the ability, right?
is just holding the weapon enough to enable the mastery?
No, because of the fact that Nick uses as it’s first sentence the Light Property to effectively create a workable effect like the other mastery effects that state “ when you attack with the weapon, “
meaning to use the nick ability you have to use that weapon with nick first to transfer the bonus action to the main action leaving the bonus action free. 2 attacks for 1 action but only if nick is used first.
If you have to use the bonus action to make an attack, using a nick weapon is pointless, because you are using the bonus action to attack and can’t make “ … a bonus action extra attack…” a second time. That only means you can make a single attack as a bonus action, and Nick can’t be used.
Nick weapon first, double attack ( 2 for 1 Action) then bonus action ( ether TWF or DWe bonus action to make 3rd attack. )
And thats just a 1st level fighter, by 2nd level that jumps to 4, because Action Surge only resets the attack action and the bonus action reset was dropped, so no double dipping bonus actions.( which would complicate matters, but by making nick a number of proficiency uses per short rest, and fun times for all. )
by level 5 with extra attack feature, the math gets wonky because of how Bonus Action economy works, but it would be at least 5 attacks. ( attack ( 1 attack down), 5th level extra attack nick first 2:1( 3 attacks so far), bonus action attack ( 4 attacks so far), surge ( two more regular attacks for a total of 6 attacks. ) and thats by 5th level.
[ it’s better to use the nick ability in the very last regular attack than to burn it early for fighters because of surge, everyone else has to decide which bonus action is better served; casting a spell that allows an attack that nick might enhance, leaving the BA for something else, or burn the BA before the main action and not being able to use any feature that grants a bonus action Whatsoever afterwards. ( even the 24 rules stick to the one and only one BA rules, even if nick transfers a bonus action to main action, and can only be done once.) ]
So that is how IMHO it’s intended to work, otherwise the ability to ether be double dipping BA’s or Nick is occurring and getting the math wrong.
Edit: cleaned up misspelling, and context.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Improvised Weapons ( 2014, couldn’t find 2024 ):
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This means that Shadow Blade by DM fiat can be considered a weapon beyond the normal class provided weapon proficiencies, and because of the specific spell description, could by fiat be considered as a weapon like a Scimitar.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It should not need to be stated that a rule has to be written for it to be Rules As Written, but here we are.
Vex: If you hit a creature with this weapon...
Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Nick does not say "with this weapon".
There are three possible interpretations of that omission.
The Nick rules do not state a required sequence so there is no RAW required sequence, there is no evidence that RAI it should be a set sequence, and I don't see any glaring exploit to be had allowing one sequence over another or allowing for interchangeable sequence.
If a character has X attacks as part of a normal Attack action, then:
Changing the sequence doesn't cause the amount of damage to spike suddenly. It may allow the character to keep Advantage on nearly every other attack, but even that's not guaranteed. In order to have advantage via weapon mastery, you need to hit with a Vex weapon and if you are alternating with Nick, the Vex attack will never be with advantage.
"TWF as a bonus action" was mentioned in the original post. That bonus action can only currently come from the Dual Wielder feat.
Edit: D&D Beyond formatting is weird.
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I wouldn't count a spell effect as an object, but even if you did, that would mean that the Shadow Blade would deal 1d6 Slashing damage instead of 2d8 psychic damage. You don't get to only apply part of the rule.
Edit: 2024 Improvised Weapons is in the Rules Glossary.
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I really do hate they moved things to the glossary, it just janks things up, should be in the weapons section clear as day.
But as far as the weapon damage, the spell overrides the general rule of improvised weapons, by changing both the die count and damage type. ( the improv rule could by DM fiat also allow the weapon to gain a mastery, per 2024 rules. )
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/214612-5e-2024-nick-weapon-shadow-blade-combo?comment=3
this is the post that contains the Article link that talks about nick. It uses the phrase Dual wielding but it is actually referring to the Light Weapon Property of Two Weapon Fighting ( and because Dual Wielding Feat enhanced uses the same wording, it confuses the situation.)
But in a nutshell, TWF and DWFe both say that the additional attack is a bonus action, meaning the nick weapon has to be used first for the nick ability to move the additional attack to the main attack so a bonus action can be used later for something else.
It functions this way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action, That additional attack must be made with a different Light weapon.
Edit: DWFe changes the second different weapon from light to anything other than two-handed weapons. ( and again spelling checks. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yes, I know. I quoted the article in post 22.
I don't think it's that confusing. The extra attack from the Light property can be made with a single hand because of the free weapon interaction rules as part of the attack action, but it is intended to represent fighting with a weapon in each hand. The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat and Dual Wielder feat enhance fighting with two weapons. The Light property is where the rules for fighting with two weapons live now.
2014 Two-Weapon Fighting. Dual Wielder lets you use Two-Weapon Fighting when the one-handed melee weapon is not light. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
2024 Light Weapon Property. Dual Wielder lets you use make an extra attack with a weapon that does not have the two-handed property. Two-weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to add your ability modifier to the extra attack.
The Dual Wielder feat has changed slightly but otherwise the Two-weapon Fighting rules are the same from 2014 with the Nick Weapon Mastery being added as a new addition. The Light weapon property is an odd place to put the basic two-weapon fighting rules, but maybe it will get more visibility than it did before.
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Well in 2024 weapon mastery is introduced, and most masteries are tied to weapon properties, in 2014 Light doesn’t really have a property.
Backdoor solution, give Light Property TWF and tie Nick to that. Ok but problem, how to design it so you don’t get a situation where the player can twist the rules to effectively make unintended extra attacks indefinitely against a single opponent and tie nick to a weapon use at the same time like the other masteries?
Force nicking weapon to have to be used first, that way you have to have the ability to use a bonus action to utilize the weapon mastery, otherwise anything else can cause a case where some other rule or rules are being violated, potentially causing unintended affects.
Because they moved TWF to the Light Property, and because 2014 Dual Wielding allowed both weapons to not longer be both light weapons, then for 2024 DWF you had to basically copy the now moved TWF general ability into the DW feat to still enable some ability to attack with two weapons that are not light weapons. The enhancement just allows for a light nick weapon to move the additional second non light weapon attack to the main attack action and freeing the bonus action to be used to make one additional weapon attack.
So overall it’s a situation where different parts of rules placed in different areas, are brought together to form a unique rule that is somewhat similar to other common rules, aka the weapon used to make the attack that other masteries have, they just tied it to first attack that is made.
It’s confusing because of how the words “extra attack” were used, instead if “additional attack” were used, IMHO it would make the ability sound more like the intended effect.
( try it, just replace. “Extra attack” in Light prop, Nick Prop, and DWFe and see if the ability sounds better. )
If you attempt to use Nick after using a bonus action, then the additional attack can’t be made, because nick requires the ability to use a bonus action to make an additional attack. ( this is known in game design as circular referencing, and without constraints can be easily abused, thus the requirement of needing to be able to make a bonus action to use nick. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I agree with this.
The same confusion about Bonus Actions and Nick was debated in this thread, beginning with this specific comment: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/213010-someone-explain-nick?comment=63
In any case, it works as @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 said.
Well that certainly isn't how the rule works currently (and I'm not sure I see anything positive about creating a rule that says so).
As much as I agree that they should have used "additional attack" I see this only being an issue for newer players. As soon as you understand the rules well enough to realise that they should have used "additional attack" instead or "extra attack" to differentiate it from "Extra Attack" then you also know the rules well enough that you should be able to not be tripped up by the issue.
As you're reading through the thread, it depends on whether limits are imposed on the Nick order. I already gave my opinion in post 3 so I think your first option is the right one.
There are also some recent threads on this topic if you'd like to read other opinions:
And therein lies the confusion, the ability to two weapon fight was placed in the Light Prop so Nick can have an attack to use it’s feature, and Light prop was available.
But both the Light Prop and Nick relies on a character having the ability to use a bonus action, it’s referred to in both, and if you use a Bonus Action before you are granted the ability to make an additional/extra attack, then how can you use a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack?
Remember the general rules still say you get only one bonus action, choose wisely. If you use the bonus action to do anything else before using two weapon fighting, the ability as a bonus action to make an additional/extra attack is impossible. [ you wouldn’t have a bonus action to make the second attack, and the Light prop and Dual Wielding feat only grant an additional/extra attack as an action that can be taken as a bonus. ]
That doesn’t mean others are wrong, just confused about why Nick doesn’t explicitly state like other Masteries why an attack is not referred to. But, an attack is referenced. It’s in the very first sentence of Nick up to the first comma, the first attack from Light prop, then nick explains how the second attack by different weapon can be used in the main action instead of using a bonus action instead. That leaves the bonus action available for use by other features.
And technically, both of the mentioned bonus attacks from Light TWF and Dual Wielding Feat could still be used, but the weapon in those attacks are made with the second different weapon.
Weapon swapping can happen, but then you’re changing your action economy and might forget about what actions you previously used.
I get players want more attacks and more damage, but attempting to get that by circumventing other rules just leads to future design flaws that will eventually become further problematic issues.
[ That’s why IMO, Dual Wielding Feat enhanced has the wording like it does. one light weapon in one hand ( possible nick weapon) and a second different weapon ( non two-handed, say a longSword ) so that by using the nick weapon first, invoking the mastery you get both the nick and longsword attacks in the first action followed by a bonus action additional / extra attack with the longsword, IMO. ]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Nah this is just wrong. Having several features that grants you a possible Bonus Action is not a problem, they do not compete with each other. And having taken a Bonus Action on your turn does not stop you from still having features that grant you a possible Bonus Action nor does it disable those features or anything similar, you simply cannot take another Bonus Action that turn. Nick however doesn't use a Bonus Action, it uses the Attack Action.
If you can’t make a bonus action attack, then how can Nick move that attack to the Attack Action? Never said Nick itself uses a bonus action, just that it requires the ability to take a bonus actions so you have the ability to as a bonus action make an additional/extra attack that can be used by the Nick weapon in the main attack action.
Without the ability to make any type of bonus action, the Nick ability can’t move a bonus attack you can’t take to the main attack action.
And if you don’t mind, I’d prefer if whole post are quoted not just portions that attempt to misrepresent the context of the post, please.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Nick uses the Light Property. The Light Property is the former Tow-Weapon Fighting Mechanic of 2014 5e, and the wording of the Nick Weapon Mastery most definitely needs to be addressed.
Btw, find it funny that Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back of the 2024 PHB and nowhere in the Free Rules except if you know what you're looking for.
And yet I can find Bonus Action in the FreeRules, that points to Actions that has more detail. ( glossary is minimal, and has a person jumping around trying to figure it out. Just [ very Sarcastic] wow. )
Nick: ( remastered); Prerequisites: use of Bonus Actions
When you make the attack of the Light Property, you can make the additional bonus action attack as an extra attack on the initial attack action. This can be done only once per turn and it does not use your bonus action.
There fixed it for ya.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You don't need to be able to use a Bonus Action until you do something that actual uses the Bonus Action. If you make an attack with a Light weapon and the Nick Mastery applies to either the initial weapon or the weapon you are making the extra attack, you do not need to expend a Bonus Action and whether you have a Bonus Action or not doesn't matter.
This is not a rule.
I don't see Two-weapon Fighting anywhere in the back of the 2024 PHB except for the Two-weapon Fighting [Fighting Style] Feat. I think this was the part of the reason for moving around the rules. In 2014, Two-Weapon Fighting could refer to the generic rule or to the Fighting Style.
This is incorrect because Nick does not require the use of Bonus Action. Independent of that "Prerequisites: use of Bonus Action" would mean that you would have to use a Bonus Action to activate Nick (which again, you don't) and that conflicts with "and it does not use your bonus action." There is no such thing as a bonus action attack. The Light property gives you an attack and to use that attack, you have to expend a Bonus Action. If the Nick Mastery applies, the Light property gives you an extra attack once per turn and if you already expended your bonus action or some effect prevented you from using Bonus Actions, it would not prevent the extra attack from the Light property with the Nick Mastery.
You haven't fixed the wording. You have changed the wording to say something multiple people have tried to explain that it does not say.
If you are making the extra attack from the Light property with the [wprop]Nick[/wrprop], the combined rules become:
That is all there is to it. Nothing ever requires the character to be able to potentially take a certain action, bonus action, or reaction. The only requirements are to actually take those actions, bonus actions, or reactions. Once something removes the action, bonus action, or reaction requirement, the requirement to potentially take actions, bonus actions, or reactions is removed because that requirement never existed independently of the actual action requirements.
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