So, rather than spend 250 gp on, say, 5 potions of healing, could a character hire a hireling to make a Potion of Healing each day for 5 days, for 125 GP in materials and 10 gp in Hireling Fees, for a grand total cost of 135 GP, vs 250 gp if purchased outright?
Why would a hireling work for 2 gp a day, when they can make the potions themselves and sell them for 25 gp a day?
Well, first, because Joe Hireling needs 25gp worth of raw materials to make his healing potion, and if he buys those himself, he's not making a profit.
If he instead sells the potions for 50gp, Joe Hireling has to find someone who
Pays the market rate for healing potions?
Yes, and that may not be as easy as it sounds. Your average person probably can't scrape up 25 GP ($4,000-8,000), and even if they can, the question is if they want to spend that much for something that can be used once to accomplish something that would happen anyway with a couple of good night's sleep.
So that's your starting subset. Now remove the people who can make it themselves.
Remove the people who are worried that Joe Hireling might be selling them water with dye (or worse) in it.
So now the group of potential clients is a pretty small group.
Joe Hireling needs to let these people know he has a supply of items that weigh about half a pound and sell for $4,000-$8,000 each. He will have to work hard to avoid being robbed.
Once he has done all that, Joe Hireling needs to meet with people who have relatively large amounts of money and tend to get injured often enough in situations to require healing potions (i.e., they don't get injured because of accidents, those people could wait for their injuries to heal. These people get injured because of violence.)
Joe Hirelinjg has to meet with these people who he quite likely doesn't know and hope they don't rob or murder since he is carrying $20.000 in potions.
If Joe Hireling is willing to do all that, why is he selling potions and not going out on adventures?
Or, he could just take the 2 GP a day, not have to worry about finding clients, not have to worry about the outlay for the ingredients, not have to worry about being killed by a bunch of murder-hoboes, and he can sleep relatively well at night since his house isn't filled with extremely valuable and portable goods.
So what you're saying is, basic healing potions shouldn't be priced at 50 gp, because there's no one who would sell them for that amount
Then feel free to change that in your world
I didn't say that at all. I said that there's a good reason Joe might not want to do that. The majority of NPCs probably won't, but that doesn't mean none of them will. There will almost certainly be someone with the money to risk willing to hire some guards, install an iron door and bars on their windows, etc.
As I was writing my earlier reply I was struck by the similarities between someone making and selling healing potions and someone making and selling illegal drugs (the money, the distribution problems, and the types of dangerous people involved).
Most people with chemistry degrees work 9 to 5 jobs with regular pay, but there's always going to be someone willing to put up with the above problems (as well as the legal problems) and make illegal drugs.
Most people with chemistry degrees work 9 to 5 jobs with regular pay, but there's always going to be someone willing to put up with the above problems (as well as the legal problems) and make illegal drugs.
You understand what a terrible analogy this is, right? Because the "9 to 5 job" is still making the exact same product
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Most people with chemistry degrees work 9 to 5 jobs with regular pay, but there's always going to be someone willing to put up with the above problems (as well as the legal problems) and make illegal drugs.
You understand what a terrible analogy this is, right? Because the "9 to 5 job" is still making the exact same product
I agree that it is flawed because of the addition of illegal elements, but all analogies are flawed in some way. I was pointing out the similarities (goods with a very high value relative to their size and questionable clientele).
I could also use the analogy of chemists who work 9 to 5 jobs rather than being self-employed, making legitimate medications, but that would leave out the aspect of dealing with some somewhat risky individuals.
The fact is that most people prefer steadier jobs with less risk, but plenty are still willing to take on financial and physical risks in exchange for greater rewards.
So it seems pretty likely that the party would be able to find a hireling who falls into the former group rather than the latter, especially if they are looking to have the NPC grind out half a dozen of these potions. Does it mean that no NPCs exist in the latter category? Of course not. Like I said, there are plenty of those people as well.
From a game balance perspective, allowing potions that are normally 50 gp to be routinely acquired for 27 gp is a bad idea
From an in-world storytelling perspective, acquiring potions for 27 gp that normally cost 50 gp should come with some sort of risk or downside
Hand-waving all that away with "sure, there's some NPC willing to work for cheap" just isn't a satisfying answer to either issue
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
50 gp is the completely abstracted price for some random adventurer going to some random place where healing potions are for sale, without any prior relationship or negotiations, and using whatever is normal interaction for a regular purchase. That's why that's the price in the PHB, so you can just handwave all that interaction away if you don't want to deal with any minutiae of the transaction during character creation, or on the way to doing something else in the game.
If a player or a group is setting up a production house to supply themselves with healing potions at an outlay of less than 50gp per potion, or cutting agreements with a source to get those potions at less than the PHB Retail Price, that's a good thing. That's the players interacting with the world. That's the players dealing with employees and hirelings and guilds and putting down roots in the setting. That's player buy-in.
But if that's not promoting the particular kind of game you or your players want to be in, that's also perfectly fine.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
From a game balance perspective, allowing potions that are normally 50 gp to be routinely acquired for 27 gp is a bad idea
From an in-world storytelling perspective, acquiring potions for 27 gp that normally cost 50 gp should come with some sort of risk or downside
Hand-waving all that away with "sure, there's some NPC willing to work for cheap" just isn't a satisfying answer to either issue
I don't see that as a storytelling problem at all because that's exactly how the world works. It isn't a question of someone willing to work for cheap, it's a question of companies making money. If the party decides that they wants to forgo the profit margin they could have from selling the potions by instead using them themselves then that's a valid choice, just as it would be a valid choice to start up a business as a potions sellers and use that profit margin for something else.
From a game balance perspective, allowing potions that are normally 50 gp to be routinely acquired for 27 gp is a bad idea
From an in-world storytelling perspective, acquiring potions for 27 gp that normally cost 50 gp should come with some sort of risk or downside
Hand-waving all that away with "sure, there's some NPC willing to work for cheap" just isn't a satisfying answer to either issue
I guess it would be 27 GP plus the daily living expenses of the entire party for the day.
One downside is that for 500 GP, the party can buy 10 potions and be on its way. For 270 GP the party now has to wait for 2 weeks (the NPC isn't going to work 7 days a week without extra incentive).
I completely agree that hiring the NPC should come with other complications.
There's the danger of fraud.
People hearing about the adventurers who are spending 2 weeks staying at some inn might seek them out because they need help.
It provides an opportunity for enemies to catch up to them.
Unrelated events could occur, such as a band of kobolds attacking the peaceful farmers' village where the adventurers are staying, requiring them to rescue the kobolds.
And, of course, some people may try to help themselves to the party's gold.
Just finding the hireling could be a small adventure in its own right. "Sure, I know someone who can probably help you with that, and if you kill the rats in my cellar, I will gladly tell you where to find him."
There should never be 'free money,' but the DM must decide what a suitable replacement for the gold is. That's what crafting does, already. The player saves 25 GP, but now it takes a day, requires proficiency, and they have to get the supplies (which is not automatic, though that is often handwaved).
Honestly, many of the earlier complications, or similar complications, could and probably should occur even when the characters are crafting themselves.
Using a hireling isn't slashing the cost of a potion; it is spending gold to get around the proficiency requirement.
My only disagreement was when you seemed to imply that it would be impossible to find Hirelings willing to do this.
From a game balance perspective, allowing potions that are normally 50 gp to be routinely acquired for 27 gp is a bad idea
From an in-world storytelling perspective, acquiring potions for 27 gp that normally cost 50 gp should come with some sort of risk or downside
Hand-waving all that away with "sure, there's some NPC willing to work for cheap" just isn't a satisfying answer to either issue
I don't see that as a storytelling problem at all because that's exactly how the world works. It isn't a question of someone willing to work for cheap, it's a question of companies making money. If the party decides that they wants to forgo the profit margin they could have from selling the potions by instead using them themselves then that's a valid choice, just as it would be a valid choice to start up a business as a potions sellers and use that profit margin for something else.
As gets mentioned often in a lot of different contexts, D&D is not set up to be a viable economics engine
If you want to go down that route, I doubt either the 27 gp or the 50 gp numbers would end up being accurate
Circling back to the storytelling aspect, "party industrializes healing potion manufacturing" could be grist for something, I suppose. Do their hirelings eventually unionize? Does an alchemists guild happy with the status quo try to wreck the party's sweatshop?
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But if they’re harvesting the item, does that mean the 25 gp expenditure for base components does not apply?
It does not.
"The work takes 7 days and costs no money." "A special facility comes with one or more hirelings who work in the facility, maintain it, and execute Bastion orders there, as described"
"Each special facility in a Bastion generates enough income to pay the salary of its hirelings."
There is a lot more to just, I'm building a bastion in the rules. And there are other costs associated with Bastions, like the can be attacked, damaged and have costs associated with that.
This sounds exactly like how employer/employee relationships work in real life. Idk what's weird about it here.
The hireling gets his payment for his labor.
The investor/owner takes the capital risks for investing in supplies and carries the risks of theft, unable to sell, etc. But owns the goods and thus makes the lion's share of potential profits.
This is very normal.
If you're not liking it just introduce risks. Like what happens when you come back and your new hireling isn't there nor is any of your supplies.
Or the hireling gets injured and sues you.
Etc.
As for the idea of selling them for profit we're not looking at 27g each. It is much higher when you factor in needing facility/space to both make them in, store them at, and sell them from. Plus any hireling shopkeep wages. Local taxes. Bribes to local syndicate for protection. Your profit margin is going to be a whole lot less than you expected.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Circling back to the storytelling aspect, "party industrializes healing potion manufacturing" could be grist for something, I suppose. Do their hirelings eventually unionize? Does an alchemists guild happy with the status quo try to wreck the party's sweatshop?
I guess this is where our POW's differ. If the going rate for skilled labourer is 2 GP per day then paying your skilled labourers 2 GP per day would not be seen as running a sweatshop.
Don't get me wrong, I would not argue with a DM that decides to say "no" due to game balance but saying "no" for storytelling reasons just seems stupid to me. There is a wealth of reasoning for why someone would rather be a hireling than a shop owner just in this thread, it really shouldn't be hard to come up with even more just by looking at the world around us for a few minutes. Most of our real world concepts of motivation works just as well in a fantasy world.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I didn't say that at all. I said that there's a good reason Joe might not want to do that. The majority of NPCs probably won't, but that doesn't mean none of them will. There will almost certainly be someone with the money to risk willing to hire some guards, install an iron door and bars on their windows, etc.
As I was writing my earlier reply I was struck by the similarities between someone making and selling healing potions and someone making and selling illegal drugs (the money, the distribution problems, and the types of dangerous people involved).
Most people with chemistry degrees work 9 to 5 jobs with regular pay, but there's always going to be someone willing to put up with the above problems (as well as the legal problems) and make illegal drugs.
You understand what a terrible analogy this is, right? Because the "9 to 5 job" is still making the exact same product
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I agree that it is flawed because of the addition of illegal elements, but all analogies are flawed in some way. I was pointing out the similarities (goods with a very high value relative to their size and questionable clientele).
I could also use the analogy of chemists who work 9 to 5 jobs rather than being self-employed, making legitimate medications, but that would leave out the aspect of dealing with some somewhat risky individuals.
The fact is that most people prefer steadier jobs with less risk, but plenty are still willing to take on financial and physical risks in exchange for greater rewards.
So it seems pretty likely that the party would be able to find a hireling who falls into the former group rather than the latter, especially if they are looking to have the NPC grind out half a dozen of these potions. Does it mean that no NPCs exist in the latter category? Of course not. Like I said, there are plenty of those people as well.
From a game balance perspective, allowing potions that are normally 50 gp to be routinely acquired for 27 gp is a bad idea
From an in-world storytelling perspective, acquiring potions for 27 gp that normally cost 50 gp should come with some sort of risk or downside
Hand-waving all that away with "sure, there's some NPC willing to work for cheap" just isn't a satisfying answer to either issue
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
50 gp is the completely abstracted price for some random adventurer going to some random place where healing potions are for sale, without any prior relationship or negotiations, and using whatever is normal interaction for a regular purchase. That's why that's the price in the PHB, so you can just handwave all that interaction away if you don't want to deal with any minutiae of the transaction during character creation, or on the way to doing something else in the game.
If a player or a group is setting up a production house to supply themselves with healing potions at an outlay of less than 50gp per potion, or cutting agreements with a source to get those potions at less than the PHB Retail Price, that's a good thing. That's the players interacting with the world. That's the players dealing with employees and hirelings and guilds and putting down roots in the setting. That's player buy-in.
But if that's not promoting the particular kind of game you or your players want to be in, that's also perfectly fine.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I don't see that as a storytelling problem at all because that's exactly how the world works. It isn't a question of someone willing to work for cheap, it's a question of companies making money.
If the party decides that they wants to forgo the profit margin they could have from selling the potions by instead using them themselves then that's a valid choice, just as it would be a valid choice to start up a business as a potions sellers and use that profit margin for something else.
I guess it would be 27 GP plus the daily living expenses of the entire party for the day.
One downside is that for 500 GP, the party can buy 10 potions and be on its way. For 270 GP the party now has to wait for 2 weeks (the NPC isn't going to work 7 days a week without extra incentive).
I completely agree that hiring the NPC should come with other complications.
Just finding the hireling could be a small adventure in its own right. "Sure, I know someone who can probably help you with that, and if you kill the rats in my cellar, I will gladly tell you where to find him."
There should never be 'free money,' but the DM must decide what a suitable replacement for the gold is. That's what crafting does, already. The player saves 25 GP, but now it takes a day, requires proficiency, and they have to get the supplies (which is not automatic, though that is often handwaved).
Honestly, many of the earlier complications, or similar complications, could and probably should occur even when the characters are crafting themselves.
Using a hireling isn't slashing the cost of a potion; it is spending gold to get around the proficiency requirement.
My only disagreement was when you seemed to imply that it would be impossible to find Hirelings willing to do this.
As gets mentioned often in a lot of different contexts, D&D is not set up to be a viable economics engine
If you want to go down that route, I doubt either the 27 gp or the 50 gp numbers would end up being accurate
Circling back to the storytelling aspect, "party industrializes healing potion manufacturing" could be grist for something, I suppose. Do their hirelings eventually unionize? Does an alchemists guild happy with the status quo try to wreck the party's sweatshop?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It does not.
"The work takes 7 days and costs no money."
"A special facility comes with one or more hirelings who work in the facility, maintain it, and execute Bastion orders there, as described"
"Each special facility in a Bastion generates enough income to pay the salary of its hirelings."
There is a lot more to just, I'm building a bastion in the rules. And there are other costs associated with Bastions, like the can be attacked, damaged and have costs associated with that.
This sounds exactly like how employer/employee relationships work in real life. Idk what's weird about it here.
The hireling gets his payment for his labor.
The investor/owner takes the capital risks for investing in supplies and carries the risks of theft, unable to sell, etc. But owns the goods and thus makes the lion's share of potential profits.
This is very normal.
If you're not liking it just introduce risks. Like what happens when you come back and your new hireling isn't there nor is any of your supplies.
Or the hireling gets injured and sues you.
Etc.
As for the idea of selling them for profit we're not looking at 27g each. It is much higher when you factor in needing facility/space to both make them in, store them at, and sell them from. Plus any hireling shopkeep wages. Local taxes. Bribes to local syndicate for protection. Your profit margin is going to be a whole lot less than you expected.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I guess this is where our POW's differ. If the going rate for skilled labourer is 2 GP per day then paying your skilled labourers 2 GP per day would not be seen as running a sweatshop.
Don't get me wrong, I would not argue with a DM that decides to say "no" due to game balance but saying "no" for storytelling reasons just seems stupid to me. There is a wealth of reasoning for why someone would rather be a hireling than a shop owner just in this thread, it really shouldn't be hard to come up with even more just by looking at the world around us for a few minutes. Most of our real world concepts of motivation works just as well in a fantasy world.