After reading the latest posts, I've changed my mind and I agree with @HarmAssassin. I misunderstood the interaction, sorry.
Sacred Weapon only adds a bonus to the attack roll (using Charisma to determine the bonus value). It doesn't add a second ability modifier to the attack roll.
The issue here is "equal to the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll". "The ability modifier". Definite and singular. You could use both if the description said "attack roll bonus" or "any ability modifiers", but it doesn't say that. I'd say a nice DM would allow you to use whichever is higher, though.
But if you follow that line of thoughts, then you were ruling you cannot stack Charisma with your Strength? And that is not correct.
No, my point was regarding the definition of Graze, which clearly showed that the intent of Mastery property was to not allow stacking. It's clearly meant to be 1 ability modifier, and not the total attack roll's bonus, or even the sum of any ability modifiers you're allowed to use for that attack roll. Of course you can stack them for the attack roll, but they don't count to the calculation of the Graze damage.
The issue here is "equal to the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll". "The ability modifier". Definite and singular. You could use both if the description said "attack roll bonus" or "any ability modifiers", but it doesn't say that. I'd say a nice DM would allow you to use whichever is higher, though.
But if you follow that line of thoughts, then you were ruling you cannot stack Charisma with your Strength? And that is not correct.
No, my point was regarding the definition of Graze, which clearly showed that the intent of Mastery property was to not allow stacking. It's clearly meant to be 1 ability modifier, and not the total attack roll's bonus, or even the sum of any ability modifiers you're allowed to use for that attack roll. Of course you can stack them for the attack roll, but they don't count to the calculation of the Graze damage.
Sacred Weapon adds a bonus, that bonus is equal to your CHA modifier. That doesn't mean you're using your CHA modifier to make the attack roll, you are using your STR modifier + the bonus from Sacred Weapon.
In your example, STR is the ability modifer used for the attack roll, then you are using Sacred Weapon to add an additional bonus. Just because that additional bonus happens to be derived from the CHA score modifier, doesn't mean that both STR and CHA are the ability modifier for the attack. STR is the ability modifier in this case, and the ONLY thing Graze considers.
I've never understood why some people is so insistent on excusing bad rules writing by ignoring what the rules actually say. There are loads of instances where the rules says to "add a bonus" to a roll (+1 weapons for example) but the feature in question here doesn't, it says to "add your Charisma modifier" to the roll so I don't really see any RAW argument for it not being an additional added ability mod.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that they likely intended for the feature to add a bonus to the roll but that is not what they actually wrote in the rule. Of course I only say "likely" because I'm not actually certain that it is a mistake seeing as this isn't the only rule that tells you to add two different ability mods to a roll (the Gloomstalker for example adds two ability mods to its Initiative rolls) without one of them being called a "bonus".
Sacred Weapon adds a bonus, that bonus is equal to your CHA modifier. That doesn't mean you're using your CHA modifier to make the attack roll, you are using your STR modifier + the bonus from Sacred Weapon.
In your example, STR is the ability modifer used for the attack roll, then you are using Sacred Weapon to add an additional bonus. Just because that additional bonus happens to be derived from the CHA score modifier, doesn't mean that both STR and CHA are the ability modifier for the attack. STR is the ability modifier in this case, and the ONLY thing Graze considers.
I've never understood why some people is so insistent on excusing bad rules writing by ignoring what the rules actually say. There are loads of instances where the rules says to "add a bonus" to a roll (+1 weapons for example) but the feature in question here doesn't, it says to "add your Charisma modifier" to the roll so I don't really see any RAW argument for it not being an additional added ability mod.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that they likely intended for the feature to add a bonus to the roll but that is not what they actually wrote in the rule. Of course I only say "likely" because I'm not actually certain that it is a mistake seeing as this isn't the only rule that tells you to add two different ability mods to a roll (the Gloomstalker for example adds two ability mods to its Initiative rolls) without one of them being called a "bonus".
Add Modifiers. Add these modifiers to the number rolled on the d20:
The Relevant Ability Modifier. This chapter and the rules glossary explain which ability modifiers to use for various D20 Tests.
Your Proficiency Bonus If Relevant. Each creature has a Proficiency Bonus, a number added when making a D20 Test that uses something, such as a skill, in which the creature has proficiency. See “Proficiency” later in this chapter.
Circumstantial Bonuses and Penalties. A class feature, a spell, or another rule might give a bonus or penalty to the die roll.
Ability Modifier
The Attack Roll Abilities table shows which ability modifier to use for different types of attack rolls.
Spell attack (the ability used is determined by the spellcaster’s spellcasting feature, as explained in chapter 7)
Some features let you use different ability modifiers from those listed. For example, the Finesse property (see chapter 6) lets you use Strength or Dexterity with a weapon that has that property.
So your are saying that a Gloomstalker Ranger doesn't get to add both their Dexterity and their Wisdom modifiers to their Initiative roll?
But seriously, those rules are irrelevant here. Nothing I could find in the rules for D20 tests prohibits you from adding more than one ability modifier to a roll (there is such a rule about your proficiency bonus though). And thus specific beats general wins out. We have two features that says that you add a ability modifier (and neither calls it a bonus) and thus we add two ability modifiers. That it creates a bit of an issue in a later step in a different rule isn't a good enough reason to say that the rule doesn't say what it actually does say.
So your are saying that a Gloomstalker Ranger doesn't get to add both their Dexterity and their Wisdom modifiers to their Initiative roll?
But seriously, those rules are irrelevant here. Nothing I could find in the rules for D20 tests prohibits you from adding more than one ability modifier to a roll (there is such a rule about your proficiency bonus though). And thus specific beats general wins out. We have two features that says that you add a ability modifier (and neither calls it a bonus) and thus we add two ability modifiers. That it creates a bit of an issue in a later step in a different rule isn't a good enough reason to say that the rule doesn't say what it actually does say.
So you are saying that bonuses don't exist. It doesn't need to call it a bonus. If it did, why doesn't it need to call it "the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll"? I'm not saying that I have an airtight case, but a RAW argument does exist.
Minor necro on the thread, but I have an interesting follow up question to this - what about weapon cantrips? The graze feature does say you do damage to the creature and if I were to say, smite, green-flame blade, booming blade, etc. and then graze (or vice-versa) would THAT work? I'm not increasing the graze damage, I'm adding an effect to it. Unsure as to how this explicitly works.
Minor necro on the thread, but I have an interesting follow up question to this - what about weapon cantrips? The graze feature does say you do damage to the creature and if I were to say, smite, green-flame blade, booming blade, etc. and then graze (or vice-versa) would THAT work? I'm not increasing the graze damage, I'm adding an effect to it. Unsure as to how this explicitly works.
Negative, those require hits not just damage, and graze applies only to misses.
If you look at Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, etc. their spell descriptions say "on a hit"...
Note that using graze with an ability that allows you to change the attribute used with an attack, such as true strike, will change which attribute you use for graze. The reason Sacred Weapon doesn't apply is because it doesn't change the attribute used.
As written, it does appear that poison damage adds, though since the poison is consumed after it does damage, this is rarely going to matter.
Has anyone looked into the Graze+Skulker feat combo? You do damage and stay stealthed as far as I can tell.
You only stay stealthed if you miss.
And you only do Graze damage if you miss, which is what they were getting at
This combo gets even funnier if the Graze weapon is a glaive and you're making the attack from 10 feet away
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I agree that you cannot stack the Paladin's Channel Divinity with Graze. Graze does state that the ONLY way to increase the damage is to increase the ability modifier.
There are a lot of features to look into for this. Barbarian Rage, Warlock Pact of the Blade, Bladesinger Wizard, True Strike...
’If your attack roll with this weapon misses a creature, you can deal damage to that creature equal to the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll. This damage is the same type dealt by the weapon, and the damage can be increased only by increasing the ability modifier.’
BUT there are quite a few ways to add multiple ability score modifiers to an attack roll. For example Devotion Paladin’s Sacred Weapon:
‘When you take the Attack action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to imbue one Melee weapon that you are holding with positive energy. For 10 minutes or until you use this feature again, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls you make with that weapon (minimum bonus of +1), and each time you hit with it, you cause it to deal its normal damage type or Radiant damage.
The weapon also emits Bright Light in a 20-foot radius and Dim Light 20 feet beyond that.
You can end this effect early (no action required). This effect also ends if you aren’t carrying the weapon.’
If a Devotion Paladin (or equivalent) uses Strength (18) and Charisma (18) in their attack roll with a Greatsword and somehow still misses, do they deal 8 damage?
It would work, but it also isn't overpowered, because Sacred Weapon will make Graze trigger less, so it will probably do about the same damage as normal.
It is for each melee attack with that weapon, and only the base state for a normal melee attack either strength or dexterity, nothing more. The channel divinity and other bonuses you are talking about are only applies if you hit. Grazes are not considered hits.
I think you misread Sacred Weapon. It adds your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls, and all it does for damage is change it to radiant damage.
I think some people were also glossing over the parenthetical in Sacred Weapon a bit too easily. It says "(minimum bonus of +1)" which is to say that it is explicitly calling the CHA mod addition a bonus—not "the ability mod used to make the attack". Seems like this thread it pretty well concluded, though.
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I've updated my answers.
After reading the latest posts, I've changed my mind and I agree with @HarmAssassin. I misunderstood the interaction, sorry.
Sacred Weapon only adds a bonus to the attack roll (using Charisma to determine the bonus value). It doesn't add a second ability modifier to the attack roll.
No, my point was regarding the definition of Graze, which clearly showed that the intent of Mastery property was to not allow stacking.
It's clearly meant to be 1 ability modifier, and not the total attack roll's bonus, or even the sum of any ability modifiers you're allowed to use for that attack roll.
Of course you can stack them for the attack roll, but they don't count to the calculation of the Graze damage.
Agreed.
I've never understood why some people is so insistent on excusing bad rules writing by ignoring what the rules actually say. There are loads of instances where the rules says to "add a bonus" to a roll (+1 weapons for example) but the feature in question here doesn't, it says to "add your Charisma modifier" to the roll so I don't really see any RAW argument for it not being an additional added ability mod.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that they likely intended for the feature to add a bonus to the roll but that is not what they actually wrote in the rule. Of course I only say "likely" because I'm not actually certain that it is a mistake seeing as this isn't the only rule that tells you to add two different ability mods to a roll (the Gloomstalker for example adds two ability mods to its Initiative rolls) without one of them being called a "bonus".
rules
So your are saying that a Gloomstalker Ranger doesn't get to add both their Dexterity and their Wisdom modifiers to their Initiative roll?
But seriously, those rules are irrelevant here. Nothing I could find in the rules for D20 tests prohibits you from adding more than one ability modifier to a roll (there is such a rule about your proficiency bonus though). And thus specific beats general wins out. We have two features that says that you add a ability modifier (and neither calls it a bonus) and thus we add two ability modifiers.
That it creates a bit of an issue in a later step in a different rule isn't a good enough reason to say that the rule doesn't say what it actually does say.
So you are saying that bonuses don't exist. It doesn't need to call it a bonus. If it did, why doesn't it need to call it "the ability modifier you used to make the attack roll"? I'm not saying that I have an airtight case, but a RAW argument does exist.
It says modifier, not modifiers. I'd allow the player to add whichever is higher, but they don't stack because Graze is only ever looking at one.
This thread is somewhat related and might help with the debate: Does Hare-Trigger stack with Aura of the Sentinel? - Rules & Game Mechanics
Minor necro on the thread, but I have an interesting follow up question to this - what about weapon cantrips? The graze feature does say you do damage to the creature and if I were to say, smite, green-flame blade, booming blade, etc. and then graze (or vice-versa) would THAT work? I'm not increasing the graze damage, I'm adding an effect to it. Unsure as to how this explicitly works.
Negative, those require hits not just damage, and graze applies only to misses.
If you look at Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, etc. their spell descriptions say "on a hit"...
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Does work for poisons though, or anything else that says damage rather than hit
Many disagree with that, personally I would rule that poison does not work with Graze.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Note that using graze with an ability that allows you to change the attribute used with an attack, such as true strike, will change which attribute you use for graze. The reason Sacred Weapon doesn't apply is because it doesn't change the attribute used.
As written, it does appear that poison damage adds, though since the poison is consumed after it does damage, this is rarely going to matter.
Has anyone looked into the Graze+Skulker feat combo? You do damage and stay stealthed as far as I can tell.
You only stay stealthed if you miss.
And you only do Graze damage if you miss, which is what they were getting at
This combo gets even funnier if the Graze weapon is a glaive and you're making the attack from 10 feet away
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I agree that you cannot stack the Paladin's Channel Divinity with Graze. Graze does state that the ONLY way to increase the damage is to increase the ability modifier.
There are a lot of features to look into for this. Barbarian Rage, Warlock Pact of the Blade, Bladesinger Wizard, True Strike...
It would work, but it also isn't overpowered, because Sacred Weapon will make Graze trigger less, so it will probably do about the same damage as normal.
I think you misread Sacred Weapon. It adds your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls, and all it does for damage is change it to radiant damage.
I think some people were also glossing over the parenthetical in Sacred Weapon a bit too easily. It says "(minimum bonus of +1)" which is to say that it is explicitly calling the CHA mod addition a bonus—not "the ability mod used to make the attack". Seems like this thread it pretty well concluded, though.