But the 2024 rules state that Hiding requires being obscured or covered, while the Invisible Condition does not. There are other 2024 rules that differentiate between being in Total Cover or being Invisible. So being Hidden and being Invisible are not the same thing and must be treated differently, right?
Being invisible is a condition, and conditions can have both general counters (truesight counters all forms of invisibility) and specific counters (antimagic field will reveal someone under the effects of an invisibility spell, but not someone using stealth). The hide action grants the invisible condition, with some limitations that don't apply to other forms of invisibility (exactly what those limitations are is disputed and has come up in multiple threads), but it's still considered invisible.
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
The flour on the creature would be invisible, yes, but it'll still leave an outline of the creature where you can't see any flour.
"Hidden" is no longer defined in the 2024 rules. Taking the Hide action no longer makes a creature hidden ... it gives them the Invisible condition.
But the 2024 rules state that Hiding requires being obscured or covered, while the Invisible Condition does not. There are other 2024 rules that differentiate between being in Total Cover or being Invisible. So being Hidden and being Invisible are not the same thing and must be treated differently, right?
I guess you missed all the posts about the ambiguous 2024 rules for Stealth, Hidden, and Invisible. There's been a lot of them.
RE: foot prints in the flour: I was thinking of a flying creature that was discussed earlier in the post and tossing flour into the air, but I guess if there's a wall behind the creature, it would leave a large void outline of the flying creature, haha!
I guess I will stick with my rulings from 2014, they know where you are if you do not make a attempt to hide unless the conditions would make them detecting you absurd. You don't have to try and hide if you are invisible and 600 feet away readying a shot, they have no idea you are there unless you are screaming at the top of your lungs or something.
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
It's only stuff you're wearing when you go invisible, but since the Oni can do it at will, they would just need to go invisible again after the flour, and they'd have the same result.
There is still flour on the ground which would the. Have foot prints in it…
Even if the oni didn't just fly away, how would it change the situation to see footprints of the invisible oni on the ground?
A fighter who ready's an attack is dropping down from 2-3 attacks per round to 1. So against an Oni who can remain invisible and heal, that is problematic. Because he only needs to attack every 2 minutes while at full health.
And? That's only a problem for party's unprepared. You do know retreat is an option right?
...swing your open sack of flour at the attacker the next time they attack you or someone reasonably close by, and BAM! no more invisibility.
Haha! But the RAW state "Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed." Invisibility wouldn't be very useful if the dirt and grime and sweat (or flour) on your body remained visible!
It's only stuff you're wearing when you go invisible, but since the Oni can do it at will, they would just need to go invisible again after the flour, and they'd have the same result.
There is still flour on the ground which would the. Have foot prints in it…
Even if the oni didn't just fly away, how would it change the situation to see footprints of the invisible oni on the ground?
Guessing the Target’s Location: If you’re unaware of the invisible creature’s exact location, you must guess where to direct your attack. If the creature isn’t in the location you targeted, the attack automatically misses. Typically, the Dungeon Master (DM) will inform you that the attack missed without specifying whether your guess was correct.
its less of a guess if you have footprints to guide you to attacking a location. Not everyone has AOE style attacks. Not everyone knows or thinks to ready an attack for when it becomes visible, or attacks them first, etc.
just gives more options than a DM “hand waving” it as “you just know where invisible creatures are” because they need to rescue the players who cannot figure it out themselves.
For the bag of flour trick even if the oni flies away you will likely see a trail of flour as it falls off the oni and the flour then turns visible. Its not glue, it will come off as the oni moves. Not tons, but enough to guess its location with a decent perception.
I think we are talking about two different things, though. If you're discussing whether the bag of flour will allow someone to determine the exact location of the invisibleoni is, then ok, but then again, I have been going on the expectation the invisible oni wasn't attempting to hide its location in the first place. What I have been saying is that if you completely cover the oni in flour, then *maybe* you could make the argument that the oni could be seen and therefore the benefits of the invisible condition might not apply. But if you're just talking about footprints in flour on the ground or a trail of flour falling from a flying invisible creature, then the bag of flour hasn't really given the flour-thrower any advantage over a non-flour thrower when it comes to interactions with the oni.
I think we are talking about two different things, though. If you're discussing whether the bag of flour will allow someone to determine the exact location of the invisibleoni is, then ok, but then again, I have been going on the expectation the invisible oni wasn't attempting to hide its location in the first place. What I have been saying is that if you completely cover the oni in flour, then *maybe* you could make the argument that the oni could be seen and therefore the benefits of the invisible condition might not apply. But if you're just talking about footprints in flour on the ground or a trail of flour falling from a flying invisible creature, then the bag of flour hasn't really given the flour-thrower any advantage over a non-flour thrower when it comes to interactions with the oni.
So there isn’t “any advantage…” in knowing what direction an invisible creature headed?
agree to disagree on that. Me personally, it’s easier to know where to throw an AOE spell when I know a direction to throw it vs just throw it and hope something is in its area.
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Being invisible is a condition, and conditions can have both general counters (truesight counters all forms of invisibility) and specific counters (antimagic field will reveal someone under the effects of an invisibility spell, but not someone using stealth). The hide action grants the invisible condition, with some limitations that don't apply to other forms of invisibility (exactly what those limitations are is disputed and has come up in multiple threads), but it's still considered invisible.
The flour on the creature would be invisible, yes, but it'll still leave an outline of the creature where you can't see any flour.
I guess you missed all the posts about the ambiguous 2024 rules for Stealth, Hidden, and Invisible. There's been a lot of them.
Yeah, I've been away for a while, sorry.
RE: foot prints in the flour: I was thinking of a flying creature that was discussed earlier in the post and tossing flour into the air, but I guess if there's a wall behind the creature, it would leave a large void outline of the flying creature, haha!
I guess I will stick with my rulings from 2014, they know where you are if you do not make a attempt to hide unless the conditions would make them detecting you absurd. You don't have to try and hide if you are invisible and 600 feet away readying a shot, they have no idea you are there unless you are screaming at the top of your lungs or something.
Even if the oni didn't just fly away, how would it change the situation to see footprints of the invisible oni on the ground?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
And? That's only a problem for party's unprepared. You do know retreat is an option right?
Guessing the Target’s Location: If you’re unaware of the invisible creature’s exact location, you must guess where to direct your attack. If the creature isn’t in the location you targeted, the attack automatically misses. Typically, the Dungeon Master (DM) will inform you that the attack missed without specifying whether your guess was correct.
its less of a guess if you have footprints to guide you to attacking a location. Not everyone has AOE style attacks. Not everyone knows or thinks to ready an attack for when it becomes visible, or attacks them first, etc.
just gives more options than a DM “hand waving” it as “you just know where invisible creatures are” because they need to rescue the players who cannot figure it out themselves.
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For the bag of flour trick even if the oni flies away you will likely see a trail of flour as it falls off the oni and the flour then turns visible. Its not glue, it will come off as the oni moves. Not tons, but enough to guess its location with a decent perception.
I think we are talking about two different things, though. If you're discussing whether the bag of flour will allow someone to determine the exact location of the invisible oni is, then ok, but then again, I have been going on the expectation the invisible oni wasn't attempting to hide its location in the first place. What I have been saying is that if you completely cover the oni in flour, then *maybe* you could make the argument that the oni could be seen and therefore the benefits of the invisible condition might not apply. But if you're just talking about footprints in flour on the ground or a trail of flour falling from a flying invisible creature, then the bag of flour hasn't really given the flour-thrower any advantage over a non-flour thrower when it comes to interactions with the oni.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So there isn’t “any advantage…” in knowing what direction an invisible creature headed?
agree to disagree on that. Me personally, it’s easier to know where to throw an AOE spell when I know a direction to throw it vs just throw it and hope something is in its area.
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