1. If you have ADV, Sneak Attack (or if not, attack) with a Handaxe which has the VEX Mastery, giving you ADV on your next attack.
2. Using the Light Weapon 2nd attack feature and your ADV, Sneak Attack with a thrown Dagger and because it has NICK Mastery, you can take the 2nd attack as an Action instead of as a Bonus Action.
3. As a Bonus Action throw a Psychic Blade which has the VEX Mastery, giving you ADV on your next attack.
At level 9, use your Energy Dice to help ensure hits. Rinse and repeat.
-or use any LIGHT VEX weapon (Handaxe, Hand Crossbow), a LIGHT NICK weapon (Dagger, Light Hammer) and a Psychic Blade. NOTE: the VEX is there just to give you the Sneak Attack, so you could use 2 Daggers or 2 Light Hammers in a pinch
The way I understand the rules, you need to take the Attack action to manifest a first blade and attack with it. If not, you can't use your Bonus Action to attack again with a second blade.
You can manifest shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can manifest a Psychic Blade in your free hand and make the attack with that blade. [...]
After you attack with the blade on your turn, you can make a melee or ranged attack with a second psychic blade as a Bonus Action on the same turn if your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4 instead of 1d6.
I'm not reading it that way. It doesn't mandate you attack with the Psychic blade first, it's simply stating that you can do 2 attacks with the Psychic Blade. But it doesn't say you can't attack as a Bonus Action, unless your first attack is with also with a Psychic Blade. That wouldn't make much sense. What's the logic behind that?
I'm not reading it that way. It doesn't mandate you attack with the Psychic blade first, it's simply stating that you can do 2 attacks with the Psychic Blade. But it doesn't say you can't attack as a Bonus Action, unless your first attack is with also with a Psychic Blade. That wouldn't make much sense. What's the logic behind that?
The power is pretty clear that the bonus action attack is contingent on a normal attack being made.
Whenever you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can manifest a Psychic Bladein your free hand and make the attack with that blade.
You bonus action is neither of these, so you can't manifest the blade then.
After you attack with the blade on your turn, you can make a melee or ranged attack with a second psychic blade as a Bonus Action on the same turn if your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4 instead of 1d6.
The bonus action attack is contingent on you making the first attack.
The blade isn't Light, so there's no way to work it into two-weapon fighting that way. It's supposed to let you do two-weapon fighting with the psychic blades, instead of supplementing your regular TWF.
The blade isn't Light, so there's no way to work it into two-weapon fighting that way.
I never said anything about Psychic Blades needing or utilizing Light or Nick. Psychic Blades have the Vex Mastery. Reread my proposal.
The Psychic Blades description clearly says "you can make a melee or ranged attack with a second psychic blade as a Bonus Action on the same turn", no Light Property mentioned nor required.
It seems people are getting hung up on the word "second", but technically, since the blades disappear, this could be your 99th psychic blade. Perhaps it should say "another"?
There's no logic to the argument that one cannot throw a Psychic Blade as a Bonus Action UNLESS one already threw a Psychic Blade earlier. Please explain that logic.
(Ironically the Light Property is written similarly. So are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action. Seems like a similar situation.)
I'd allow it though I'm not sure it fits the rules as the bonus action psychic blade is phrased as after you use the main hand psychic blade attack, but honestly soul knifes psychic blade needs love. Its bad and its like 1/2 the features of the soul knife.
I'm not reading it that way. It doesn't mandate you attack with the Psychic blade first
It very much does
You can manifest shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can manifest a Psychic Blade in your free hand and make the attack with that blade.
After you attack with the blade on your turn, you can make a melee or ranged attack with a second psychic blade as a Bonus Action on the same turn if your other hand is free to create it.
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Well you are wrong. The Psychic Blade feature is quite clear, you need to have made an attack with a psychic blade already and you need to use another hand than with the first attack.
Well you are wrong. The Psychic Blade feature is quite clear, you need to have made an attack with a psychic blade already and you need to use another hand than with the first attack.
Ok, then for Light weapons are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action.
Well you are wrong. The Psychic Blade feature is quite clear, you need to have made an attack with a psychic blade already and you need to use another hand than with the first attack.
Ok, then for Light weapons are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action.
That's correct. You can't do something else with your Action, and then make a Bonus Action attack -- unless you have a specific feature or weapon property which allows you to do that
The Light weapon property very explicitly does not
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
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Well you are wrong. The Psychic Blade feature is quite clear, you need to have made an attack with a psychic blade already and you need to use another hand than with the first attack.
Ok, then for Light weapons are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action.
There are scenarios where it might seem like a non-Attack action is being made. Casting True Strike, Green-flame Blade, and Booming Blade would all normally be Magic actions and not allow for the extra attack. However, a College of Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight could both cast one of them as part of the Attack action and as long as they attacked with a Light weapon during that action, the Light weapon property is triggered.
Alternatively, you may have seen players misunderstanding the rules.
If you have specific examples, this forum would be happy to clarify.
There are scenarios where it might seem like a non-Attack action is being made. Casting True Strike, Green-flame Blade, and Booming Blade would all normally be Magic actions and not allow for the extra attack. However, a College of Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight could both cast one of them as part of the Attack action and as long as they attacked with a Light weapon during that action, the Light weapon property is triggered.
Alternatively, you may have seen players misunderstanding the rules.
If you have specific examples, this forum would be happy to clarify.
I just tried it in Baldur's Gate 3 (I know, I know, but it serves as a supporting interpretation of what I was saying). I had 2 daggers (Light) and as a non-attack action, I did a Dash up to the enemy. Then it let me perform a melee attack with my second dagger as a Bonus Action. It was called an "Off-Hand Attack (Melee)".
Doesn't that support my proposal that you don't HAVE to make an attack Action with a Light weapon in order to get the 2nd Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon? Or was something else going on there? In fact, nothing prohibits one from taking the Bonus Action BEFORE the main Action, so why can't we use our "second" attack "first" as a Bonus Action?
You can't take the light attack bonus action or the psychic blades bonus action before you take the attack action because they clearly state that you can only take them after a specific action. After being the key word. RAW and RAI your intent to attack with a hand axe and dagger using nick as an action and use the psychic blades for a bonus action doesn't work because the feature allowing for a bonus action attack clearly says "after you attack with the blade" clearly referring to the psychic blade. Even if this sequence was allowed it isn't optimal because a hand axe isn't a finesse weapon. You'd almost never hit the first attack unless you were building the super rare strength based rogue. At level 4 a classless rogue can do exactly what you're proposing by attacking with a dart for vex, dagger for nick attack and then using the dual wielder feat bonus action attack with a dart for another instance of vex. If you wanted to be cool you could even reskin the darts as kunai. The psychic blades were not given the light property to prevent a level 3 PC from making 3 attacks.
Edit: Darts technically don't have the light property and are considered ranged weapons so the combo would have to be hand crossbow/dagger for the attack action and dagger throw for the bonus action if you wanted to utilize vex as much as possible on a ranged dual wielding dex build. I can't see a way to get vex on a ranged bonus action attack outside of homebrew or the crossbow expert feat.
You can't take the light attack bonus action or the psychic blades bonus action before you take the attack action because they clearly state that you can only take them after a specific action. After being the key word. RAW and RAI your plan to attack with a hand axe and dagger using nick as an action and use the psychic blades for a bonus action doesn't work because the feature allowing for a bonus action attack clearly says "after you attack with the blade" clearly referring to the psychic blade. Honestly your plan isn't even optimal because a hand axe isn't a finesse weapon. You'd never hit the first attack unless you were building the super rare strength based rogue. At level 4 a classless rogue can do exactly what you're proposing by attacking with a dart for vex, dagger for nick attack and then using the dual wielder feat bonus action attack with a dart for another instance of vex. If you wanted to be cool you could even reskin the darts kunai. The psychic blades were not given the light property to prevent a level 3 PC from making 3 attacks.
Edit: Darts technically don't have the light property and are considered ranged weapons so the combo would have to be hand crossbow/dagger for the attack action and dagger throw for the bonus action if you wanted to utilize vex as much as possible on a ranged dual wielding dex build. I can't see a way to get vex on a ranged bonus action attack.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm basically trying to get 3 (or 4) ranged attacks with a standard Dex based Rogue as soon as possible.
So you're saying at level 3, I CAN do a hand crossbow attack Action, a dagger (with Nick) attack Action and then another Bonus Action attack with a 3rd weapon (dagger, hand crossbow, etc)?
@HighTechG33k BG3 doesn't always follow the 20x4 rules. It's an adaptation for a video game.
If you want to make 3 attacks on your turn using Light and Nick, you'd need the Dual Wielder feat to use the Bonus Action that Nick freed up. Or the Extra Attack feature.
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
And this video (interaction between the Light weapon property, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style feat, and Nick Weapon Mastery): Why You Get 4 Attacks a Round by Level 5
@TarodNet Thanks. So if I'm trying to do ranged attacks with a Rogue getting 3 attacks and maximizing Sneak Attacks, all I need is Dual Wielder?
So assuming I start with Advantage or have an ally within 5' of an enemy: 1. Sneak Attack hand crossbow Action (Light triggers extra light weapon bonus action) (Dual Wielder triggers extra one-handed melee Bonus Action) (Vex gives advantage) + ability modifier to dmg 2. Sneak Attack (from Vex, if hit or if ally within 5') - thrown dagger Action (Light and Nick allows using Action in lieu of using Bonus Action) - do NOT add ability modifier to dmg 3. Possible Sneak Attack (if ally within 5') - thrown dagger Bonus Action (Melee and one-handed) - do NOT add ability modifier to dmg
Is that right?
And if I want to add the ability modifier to all the damage, I'd need the Two-Weapon Fighting Style Feat?
3rd Level Rogue Soulknife, 3 ranged attacks?
1. If you have ADV, Sneak Attack (or if not, attack) with a Handaxe which has the VEX Mastery, giving you ADV on your next attack.
2. Using the Light Weapon 2nd attack feature and your ADV, Sneak Attack with a thrown Dagger and because it has NICK Mastery, you can take the 2nd attack as an Action instead of as a Bonus Action.
3. As a Bonus Action throw a Psychic Blade which has the VEX Mastery, giving you ADV on your next attack.
At level 9, use your Energy Dice to help ensure hits. Rinse and repeat.
-or use any LIGHT VEX weapon (Handaxe, Hand Crossbow), a LIGHT NICK weapon (Dagger, Light Hammer) and a Psychic Blade.
NOTE: the VEX is there just to give you the Sneak Attack, so you could use 2 Daggers or 2 Light Hammers in a pinch
Would this work?
The way I understand the rules, you need to take the Attack action to manifest a first blade and attack with it. If not, you can't use your Bonus Action to attack again with a second blade.
I'm not reading it that way. It doesn't mandate you attack with the Psychic blade first, it's simply stating that you can do 2 attacks with the Psychic Blade. But it doesn't say you can't attack as a Bonus Action, unless your first attack is with also with a Psychic Blade. That wouldn't make much sense. What's the logic behind that?
Second opinion here: Weapon and Psychic Blade - Rules & Game Mechanics
I agree with TarodNet you can attack with Psychic Blade using the Attack action or Bonus Action.
Since its not a Light weapon, so has no interaction with Light or Nick in itself.
The power is pretty clear that the bonus action attack is contingent on a normal attack being made.
You bonus action is neither of these, so you can't manifest the blade then.
The bonus action attack is contingent on you making the first attack.
The blade isn't Light, so there's no way to work it into two-weapon fighting that way. It's supposed to let you do two-weapon fighting with the psychic blades, instead of supplementing your regular TWF.
I never said anything about Psychic Blades needing or utilizing Light or Nick. Psychic Blades have the Vex Mastery. Reread my proposal.
The Psychic Blades description clearly says "you can make a melee or ranged attack with a second psychic blade as a Bonus Action on the same turn", no Light Property mentioned nor required.
It seems people are getting hung up on the word "second", but technically, since the blades disappear, this could be your 99th psychic blade. Perhaps it should say "another"?
There's no logic to the argument that one cannot throw a Psychic Blade as a Bonus Action UNLESS one already threw a Psychic Blade earlier. Please explain that logic.
(Ironically the Light Property is written similarly. So are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action. Seems like a similar situation.)
I'd allow it though I'm not sure it fits the rules as the bonus action psychic blade is phrased as after you use the main hand psychic blade attack, but honestly soul knifes psychic blade needs love. Its bad and its like 1/2 the features of the soul knife.
Interesting alternate methods to get 4 attacks (although it seems to require multi-classing with 5 levels of another class!).
Thanks!
TarodNet said you can't. I proposed that you can.
It very much does
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Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well you are wrong. The Psychic Blade feature is quite clear, you need to have made an attack with a psychic blade already and you need to use another hand than with the first attack.
Ok, then for Light weapons are you also saying that you can't take a Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon UNLESS you've taken an Action to attack with another Light weapon in that same turn? It seems fairly common for PCs to take a non-attack Action and then use a Light weapon to attack as a Bonus Action.
That's correct. You can't do something else with your Action, and then make a Bonus Action attack -- unless you have a specific feature or weapon property which allows you to do that
The Light weapon property very explicitly does not
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There are scenarios where it might seem like a non-Attack action is being made. Casting True Strike, Green-flame Blade, and Booming Blade would all normally be Magic actions and not allow for the extra attack. However, a College of Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight could both cast one of them as part of the Attack action and as long as they attacked with a Light weapon during that action, the Light weapon property is triggered.
Alternatively, you may have seen players misunderstanding the rules.
If you have specific examples, this forum would be happy to clarify.
How to add Tooltips.
I just tried it in Baldur's Gate 3 (I know, I know, but it serves as a supporting interpretation of what I was saying). I had 2 daggers (Light) and as a non-attack action, I did a Dash up to the enemy. Then it let me perform a melee attack with my second dagger as a Bonus Action. It was called an "Off-Hand Attack (Melee)".
Doesn't that support my proposal that you don't HAVE to make an attack Action with a Light weapon in order to get the 2nd Bonus Action attack with a Light weapon? Or was something else going on there? In fact, nothing prohibits one from taking the Bonus Action BEFORE the main Action, so why can't we use our "second" attack "first" as a Bonus Action?
You can't take the light attack bonus action or the psychic blades bonus action before you take the attack action because they clearly state that you can only take them after a specific action. After being the key word. RAW and RAI your intent to attack with a hand axe and dagger using nick as an action and use the psychic blades for a bonus action doesn't work because the feature allowing for a bonus action attack clearly says "after you attack with the blade" clearly referring to the psychic blade. Even if this sequence was allowed it isn't optimal because a hand axe isn't a finesse weapon. You'd almost never hit the first attack unless you were building the super rare strength based rogue. At level 4 a classless rogue can do exactly what you're proposing by attacking with a dart for vex, dagger for nick attack and then using the dual wielder feat bonus action attack with a dart for another instance of vex. If you wanted to be cool you could even reskin the darts as kunai. The psychic blades were not given the light property to prevent a level 3 PC from making 3 attacks.
Edit: Darts technically don't have the light property and are considered ranged weapons so the combo would have to be hand crossbow/dagger for the attack action and dagger throw for the bonus action if you wanted to utilize vex as much as possible on a ranged dual wielding dex build. I can't see a way to get vex on a ranged bonus action attack outside of homebrew or the crossbow expert feat.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm basically trying to get 3 (or 4) ranged attacks with a standard Dex based Rogue as soon as possible.
So you're saying at level 3, I CAN do a hand crossbow attack Action, a dagger (with Nick) attack Action and then another Bonus Action attack with a 3rd weapon (dagger, hand crossbow, etc)?
@HighTechG33k BG3 doesn't always follow the 20x4 rules. It's an adaptation for a video game.
If you want to make 3 attacks on your turn using Light and Nick, you'd need the Dual Wielder feat to use the Bonus Action that Nick freed up. Or the Extra Attack feature.
I usually recommend this explanation from Dual wield, Nick and light weapons:
And this video (interaction between the Light weapon property, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style feat, and Nick Weapon Mastery): Why You Get 4 Attacks a Round by Level 5
@TarodNet Thanks. So if I'm trying to do ranged attacks with a Rogue getting 3 attacks and maximizing Sneak Attacks, all I need is Dual Wielder?
So assuming I start with Advantage or have an ally within 5' of an enemy:
1. Sneak Attack hand crossbow Action (Light triggers extra light weapon bonus action) (Dual Wielder triggers extra one-handed melee Bonus Action) (Vex gives advantage) + ability modifier to dmg
2. Sneak Attack (from Vex, if hit or if ally within 5') - thrown dagger Action (Light and Nick allows using Action in lieu of using Bonus Action) - do NOT add ability modifier to dmg
3. Possible Sneak Attack (if ally within 5') - thrown dagger Bonus Action (Melee and one-handed) - do NOT add ability modifier to dmg
Is that right?
And if I want to add the ability modifier to all the damage, I'd need the Two-Weapon Fighting Style Feat?