Hello. I am starting a new campaign in the near future with orc fighter in mind. We will be using 2024 rules. My DM said that Relentless Endurance trait will not work when enemy will try to knock me unconcious, because new rule for knocking out an enemy states that instead of reducing target to 0HP you now reduce the target to 1HP instead and render him unconcious. So without ever going to 0HP Relentless Endurace will never trigger.
Is my DM right?
And also how knocking out will work against barbarian's Relentless Rage? Can knocking out bypass the trait altogether?
So, yes, by the rules, that likely bypasses the abilities. *
However, it is very much against the spirit of the abilities and should not.
If they're just warning you of that exception, but most enemies try to kill you anyway, everything's fine. You'll go down slightly quicker when somebody wants to catch you, and it's no big deal.
On the other hand, if every enemy coincidentally goes for a knockout blow on you, then your DM would be being a jerk. This is less likely to be the case, but will probably become clear fairly quickly in play.
* There's an argument to be made that, because you have Relentless Rage/Endurance, the attacker would not reduce you to 0 hit points, so can't choose to render you unconscious. However, it's not the strongest argument, and it's irrelevant, because your DM wants it to work the other way, and they're the one who gets to adjudicate the rules. You can try it, but I wouldn't expect it to work. "Against the spirit of the abilities" is a much stronger one for a GM who is reachable.
Given the way Relentless Endurance is worded in the 2024 rules, it actually makes sense it wouldn't work on a knockout blow
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This appears to be a case of Simultaneous Effects:
Simultaneous Effects
If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen.
This all starts with a damage roll:
You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target.
When damage is dealt, it must be resolved. This process takes into account factors which might modify the damage such as resistances and immunities. Then, the target actually takes the damage and updates their hit points:
Order of Application
Modifiers to damage are applied in the following order: adjustments such as bonuses, penalties, or multipliers are applied first; Resistance is applied second; and Vulnerability is applied third.
Whenever you take damage, subtract it from your Hit Points.
While resolving the damage, if you subtract enough hit points so that the Current Hit Points drops to 0, that is a triggering event which causes effects that must be resolved. By default, we follow this rule:
When a creature drops to 0 Hit Points, it either dies outright or falls unconscious . . .
Falling Unconscious
If you reach 0 Hit Points and don’t die instantly, you have the Unconscious condition (see the rules glossary) until you regain any Hit Points, and you now face making Death Saving Throws
However, in this case we have two additional (simultaneous) effects that are triggered by the same event just before the damage is fully resolved. This happens just after the damage has been fully calculated and is being dealt, but it has not yet been applied and taken by the target creature. The dealing of the damage is essentially being interrupted, and a different rule is then interjected to determine how much damage is taken:
Knocking Out a Creature
When you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points with a melee attack, you can instead reduce the creature to 1 Hit Point and give it the Unconscious condition.
And:
Relentless Endurance.When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
In my opinion, there is no mechanical difference between "when you would" and "when you are" in this situation because in both cases something else happens instead of being reduced to 0. When you are at the point in the procedure of resolving the damage where you would be reducing the HP to 0, then instead of doing that, you follow a different rule.
In the case of Relentless Rage, it's also worded a bit differently, but it also uses the word "instead" to indicate what actually happens:
If you drop to 0 Hit Points while your Rage is active and don’t die outright, you can make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you succeed, your Hit Points instead change to a number equal to twice your Barbarian level.
So, under this interpretation these two effects would be resolved by the rule for Simultaneous Effects.
I think that it would be useful if these abilities were updated via errata so that Relentless Endurance and Relentless Rage both used the phrase "If you would be reduced to 0" so that this interaction is cleaner, and also so that those abilities are written in a way that just makes more sense. But it seems to me that this is meant to be the same trigger.
I guess if a DM felt strongly that the Knocking Out effect happens first because of the phrase "when you would reduce" as though we were somehow in an earlier stage of the same damage resolving procedure or something, then yes, I suppose that these traits would not have the chance to trigger, and some errata is likely needed if that becomes the accepted interpretation.
Given the way Relentless Endurance is worded in the 2024 rules, it actually makes sense it wouldn't work on a knockout blow
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
In addition to the analysis above, this is where we get into "against the spirit of the abilities". It represents the ability to power through damage that would otherwise render you unconscious. The KO blow renders you unconscious through damage. It ought to be beaten by relentless endurance.
Hello. I am starting a new campaign in the near future with orc fighter in mind. We will be using 2024 rules. My DM said that Relentless Endurance trait will not work when enemy will try to knock me unconcious, because new rule for knocking out an enemy states that instead of reducing target to 0HP you now reduce the target to 1HP instead and render him unconcious. So without ever going to 0HP Relentless Endurace will never trigger.
Is my DM right?
And also how knocking out will work against barbarian's Relentless Rage? Can knocking out bypass the trait altogether?
Yes your DM is right, knocking out your Orc Barbarian won't trigger it's Relentless Endurance or Relentless Rage because its reduced to 1 HP and not 0.
Foes sparing your life this way may happen relatively rarely, if your abilities keep getting bypassed this way on most occasions, feel free to share your concerns with your DM.
Yes your DM is right, knocking out your Orc Barbarian won't trigger it's Relentless Endurance or Relentless Rage because its reduced to 1 HP and not 0.
Foes sparing your life this way may happen relatively rarely, if your abilities keep getting bypassed this way on most occasions, feel free to share your concerns with your DM.
I'd have to agree with this. And I think it is just fine that being knocked-out isn't stopped by abilities meant to stop you from dying.
As long as the DM doesn't consistently use it as a trick to bypass the features it isn't an issue IMO and if he does it is more of an issue with the DM than with the rules.
Given the way Relentless Endurance is worded in the 2024 rules, it actually makes sense it wouldn't work on a knockout blow
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
In addition to the analysis above, this is where we get into "against the spirit of the abilities". It represents the ability to power through damage that would otherwise render you unconscious. The KO blow renders you unconscious through damage. It ought to be beaten by relentless endurance.
Sleep is no more relevant than Power Word Kill.
We seem to differ on what we think "the spirit of the ability" is
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So, it sounds like all of you are sticking to the notion that the creature must actually be at 0 HP at some moment in order to trigger the Relentless Endurance and Relentless Rage abilities in spite of the explicit use of the word "instead" in both of those features?
Keep in mind that the default rule is that at the instant that you reach 0 HP without dying you become Unconscious. Keep in mind also that acquiring the Unconscious condition, however briefly, results in becoming Prone and dropping whatever you are holding and that you remain prone after the condition ends. Ending the Prone condition costs half of the creature's movement.
Are all of you suggesting a ruling that when a creature with Relentless Endurance is reduced to O HP and that creature then uses that trait to "drop to 1 Hit Point instead", that after this is resolved that creature finds himself Prone and with his hands empty?
If not, then what is actually the difference in the timing between the triggering of the Knocking Out a Creature effect and the Relentless Endurance effect?
The difference between ''when you are reduced'' versus ''when you would reduce'' is the modal verb would used to refer to future time from the point of view of the past.
Given the way Relentless Endurance is worded in the 2024 rules, it actually makes sense it wouldn't work on a knockout blow
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
I find this argument absurd. You are saying that an ability does not trigger because the requirements are fulfilled. Nowhere does it say "If someone attempts to kill you". You claim is based on an implication that assumes lack of redundancy while ignoring other scenarios where the text actually does apply.
I find this argument absurd. You are saying that an ability does not trigger because the requirements are fulfilled.
The ability doesn't trigger because the requirements are not fulfilled. The target victim is never at 0 hp, because nonlethal damage is resolved before damage is applied.
I find this argument absurd. You are saying that an ability does not trigger because the requirements are fulfilled.
The ability doesn't trigger because the requirements are not fulfilled. The target victim is never at 0 hp, because nonlethal damage is resolved before damage is applied.
I don't believe that's what they were saying:
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead. Once you use this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
I could be wrong but I believe their argument hinged on the phrase "but not killed outright" not applying to this case.
I could be wrong but I believe their argument hinged on the phrase "but not killed outright" not applying to this case.
Nah the "not killed outright/don’t die outright" is just supporting evidence on what the relentless features are supposed to protect against. The main rules argument is, as Pantagruel says, that the rules for knocking out a creature puts the creature at 1hp instead of going to 0hp.
The difference between ''when you are reduced'' versus ''when you would reduce'' is the modal verb would used to refer to future time from the point of view of the past.
If you believe that there is a timing difference between "when you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points" and "when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points" despite the fact that in BOTH cases something ELSE happens INSTEAD of that . . . then you are forced to rule that a creature who uses their Relentless Endurance trait becomes Prone and drops everything that they are holding and their current Hit Point total is set to 1. Is that how you are ruling it?
If you believe that there is a timing difference between "when you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points" and "when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points" despite the fact that in BOTH cases something ELSE happens INSTEAD of that . . . then you are forced to rule that a creature who uses their Relentless Endurance trait becomes Prone and drops everything that they are holding and their current Hit Point total is set to 1. Is that how you are ruling it?
No, i rule that the creature stay put but it's beside the point since ''when you're reduced to 0'' never occur upon Knocking Out a Creature, as when you would do so, you instead reduced it to 1, and Relentless X can't be used when reduced to 1. You're of course free to rule differently.
If you believe that there is a timing difference between "when you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points" and "when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points" despite the fact that in BOTH cases something ELSE happens INSTEAD of that . . . then you are forced to rule that a creature who uses their Relentless Endurance trait becomes Prone and drops everything that they are holding and their current Hit Point total is set to 1. Is that how you are ruling it?
No, i rule that the creature stay put but it's beside the point since ''when you're reduced to 0'' never occur upon Knocking Out a Creature, as when you would do so, you instead reduced it to 1, and Relentless X can't be used when reduced to 1. You're of course free to rule differently.
But that's my point. "When you're reduced to 0" never occurs in the case of Relentless Endurance either. If it did, the creature would be prone, and it would be forced to drop whatever he was holding. But that never actually happens because something else happens instead.
The timing is the same in both cases. In both cases we are looking at the moment after damage has been calculated and is being dealt but before that damage has actually been applied / taken. At that moment, an alternate rule for resolving the damage is used in both cases. If both of those cases exist at the same time, then both of the alternate rules are triggered simultaneously. There is enough damage in both cases to reduce the creature to 0 but in both cases the creature is never actually dropped to 0 because something else happens instead.
Here is another way of looking at it. Your interpretation of Relentless Endurance looks like this:
Creature Drops to 0 HP --> THEN Creature's HP is set to 1.
But a more accurate way of reading the text for Relentless Endurance is like this:
There is enough damage, and it must now be resolved. We can either . . .
Option 1: Creature Drops to 0 HP.
OR
Option 2: Creature's HP is set to 1 instead.
As already mentioned, this is exactly the same timing as what happens with the rule for Knocking Out a Creature, which goes like this:
There is enough damage, and it must now be resolved. We can either . . .
Option 1: Creature Drops to 0 HP.
OR
Option 2: Choose to knock out the creature and set the Creature's HP to 1 instead.
Therefore, the effect of Knocking out a creature happens simultaneously to the effect of Relentless Endurance.
But that's my point. "When you're reduced to 0" never occurs in the case of Relentless Endurance either. If it did, the creature would be prone, and it would be forced to drop whatever he was holding. But that never actually happens because something else happens instead.
Differences in wording. The reason you don't drop prone and drop your items when relentless endurance is because RE states "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead." The word 'instead' means it replaces the normal consequences of being reduced to 0 HP.
However, the rules for Knocking a Creature Out do not change the consequences of dropping to 0 hp -- instead, they mean the creature does not drop to 0 hp in the first place. Thus, it is resolved after damage has been determined, but before damage has actually been applied, whereas relentless endurance/etc apply when the damage is applied.
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Hello.
I am starting a new campaign in the near future with orc fighter in mind.
We will be using 2024 rules.
My DM said that Relentless Endurance trait will not work when enemy will try to knock me unconcious, because new rule for knocking out an enemy states that instead of reducing target to 0HP you now reduce the target to 1HP instead and render him unconcious. So without ever going to 0HP Relentless Endurace will never trigger.
Is my DM right?
And also how knocking out will work against barbarian's Relentless Rage? Can knocking out bypass the trait altogether?
So, yes, by the rules, that likely bypasses the abilities. *
However, it is very much against the spirit of the abilities and should not.
If they're just warning you of that exception, but most enemies try to kill you anyway, everything's fine. You'll go down slightly quicker when somebody wants to catch you, and it's no big deal.
On the other hand, if every enemy coincidentally goes for a knockout blow on you, then your DM would be being a jerk. This is less likely to be the case, but will probably become clear fairly quickly in play.
* There's an argument to be made that, because you have Relentless Rage/Endurance, the attacker would not reduce you to 0 hit points, so can't choose to render you unconscious. However, it's not the strongest argument, and it's irrelevant, because your DM wants it to work the other way, and they're the one who gets to adjudicate the rules. You can try it, but I wouldn't expect it to work. "Against the spirit of the abilities" is a much stronger one for a GM who is reachable.
Given the way Relentless Endurance is worded in the 2024 rules, it actually makes sense it wouldn't work on a knockout blow
If there's no attempt at a killing blow, it wouldn't trigger, any more than it would trigger if someone cast sleep on you to render you Unconscious
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This appears to be a case of Simultaneous Effects:
This all starts with a damage roll:
When damage is dealt, it must be resolved. This process takes into account factors which might modify the damage such as resistances and immunities. Then, the target actually takes the damage and updates their hit points:
While resolving the damage, if you subtract enough hit points so that the Current Hit Points drops to 0, that is a triggering event which causes effects that must be resolved. By default, we follow this rule:
However, in this case we have two additional (simultaneous) effects that are triggered by the same event just before the damage is fully resolved. This happens just after the damage has been fully calculated and is being dealt, but it has not yet been applied and taken by the target creature. The dealing of the damage is essentially being interrupted, and a different rule is then interjected to determine how much damage is taken:
And:
In my opinion, there is no mechanical difference between "when you would" and "when you are" in this situation because in both cases something else happens instead of being reduced to 0. When you are at the point in the procedure of resolving the damage where you would be reducing the HP to 0, then instead of doing that, you follow a different rule.
In the case of Relentless Rage, it's also worded a bit differently, but it also uses the word "instead" to indicate what actually happens:
So, under this interpretation these two effects would be resolved by the rule for Simultaneous Effects.
I think that it would be useful if these abilities were updated via errata so that Relentless Endurance and Relentless Rage both used the phrase "If you would be reduced to 0" so that this interaction is cleaner, and also so that those abilities are written in a way that just makes more sense. But it seems to me that this is meant to be the same trigger.
I guess if a DM felt strongly that the Knocking Out effect happens first because of the phrase "when you would reduce" as though we were somehow in an earlier stage of the same damage resolving procedure or something, then yes, I suppose that these traits would not have the chance to trigger, and some errata is likely needed if that becomes the accepted interpretation.
In addition to the analysis above, this is where we get into "against the spirit of the abilities". It represents the ability to power through damage that would otherwise render you unconscious. The KO blow renders you unconscious through damage. It ought to be beaten by relentless endurance.
Sleep is no more relevant than Power Word Kill.
Yes your DM is right, knocking out your Orc Barbarian won't trigger it's Relentless Endurance or Relentless Rage because its reduced to 1 HP and not 0.
Foes sparing your life this way may happen relatively rarely, if your abilities keep getting bypassed this way on most occasions, feel free to share your concerns with your DM.
I'd have to agree with this. And I think it is just fine that being knocked-out isn't stopped by abilities meant to stop you from dying.
As long as the DM doesn't consistently use it as a trick to bypass the features it isn't an issue IMO and if he does it is more of an issue with the DM than with the rules.
We seem to differ on what we think "the spirit of the ability" is
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a problem here.
The goal of Relentless Rage / Endurance is to avoid dropping to 0 HP, having the Unconscious condition and making Death Saving Throws.
The goal of Knocking Out a Creature is to reduce it to 1 Hit Point and give it the Unconscious condition.
Also, as a DM, it's not on my mind to take advantage of the rules all the time just to prevent the players from enjoying their features.
EDIT: rewording.
So, it sounds like all of you are sticking to the notion that the creature must actually be at 0 HP at some moment in order to trigger the Relentless Endurance and Relentless Rage abilities in spite of the explicit use of the word "instead" in both of those features?
Keep in mind that the default rule is that at the instant that you reach 0 HP without dying you become Unconscious. Keep in mind also that acquiring the Unconscious condition, however briefly, results in becoming Prone and dropping whatever you are holding and that you remain prone after the condition ends. Ending the Prone condition costs half of the creature's movement.
Are all of you suggesting a ruling that when a creature with Relentless Endurance is reduced to O HP and that creature then uses that trait to "drop to 1 Hit Point instead", that after this is resolved that creature finds himself Prone and with his hands empty?
If not, then what is actually the difference in the timing between the triggering of the Knocking Out a Creature effect and the Relentless Endurance effect?
In 2014 it wouldn't have worked because unconscious targets were at 0 hp but stable, in 2024 it appears to work. I suspect it is not intended.
The difference between ''when you are reduced'' versus ''when you would reduce'' is the modal verb would used to refer to future time from the point of view of the past.
I find this argument absurd. You are saying that an ability does not trigger because the requirements are fulfilled. Nowhere does it say "If someone attempts to kill you". You claim is based on an implication that assumes lack of redundancy while ignoring other scenarios where the text actually does apply.
The ability doesn't trigger because the requirements are not fulfilled. The target victim is never at 0 hp, because nonlethal damage is resolved before damage is applied.
I don't believe that's what they were saying:
I could be wrong but I believe their argument hinged on the phrase "but not killed outright" not applying to this case.
Nah the "not killed outright/don’t die outright" is just supporting evidence on what the relentless features are supposed to protect against. The main rules argument is, as Pantagruel says, that the rules for knocking out a creature puts the creature at 1hp instead of going to 0hp.
If you believe that there is a timing difference between "when you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points" and "when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points" despite the fact that in BOTH cases something ELSE happens INSTEAD of that . . . then you are forced to rule that a creature who uses their Relentless Endurance trait becomes Prone and drops everything that they are holding and their current Hit Point total is set to 1. Is that how you are ruling it?
No, i rule that the creature stay put but it's beside the point since ''when you're reduced to 0'' never occur upon Knocking Out a Creature, as when you would do so, you instead reduced it to 1, and Relentless X can't be used when reduced to 1. You're of course free to rule differently.
But that's my point. "When you're reduced to 0" never occurs in the case of Relentless Endurance either. If it did, the creature would be prone, and it would be forced to drop whatever he was holding. But that never actually happens because something else happens instead.
The timing is the same in both cases. In both cases we are looking at the moment after damage has been calculated and is being dealt but before that damage has actually been applied / taken. At that moment, an alternate rule for resolving the damage is used in both cases. If both of those cases exist at the same time, then both of the alternate rules are triggered simultaneously. There is enough damage in both cases to reduce the creature to 0 but in both cases the creature is never actually dropped to 0 because something else happens instead.
Here is another way of looking at it. Your interpretation of Relentless Endurance looks like this:
Creature Drops to 0 HP --> THEN Creature's HP is set to 1.
But a more accurate way of reading the text for Relentless Endurance is like this:
There is enough damage, and it must now be resolved. We can either . . .
Option 1: Creature Drops to 0 HP.
OR
Option 2: Creature's HP is set to 1 instead.
As already mentioned, this is exactly the same timing as what happens with the rule for Knocking Out a Creature, which goes like this:
There is enough damage, and it must now be resolved. We can either . . .
Option 1: Creature Drops to 0 HP.
OR
Option 2: Choose to knock out the creature and set the Creature's HP to 1 instead.
Therefore, the effect of Knocking out a creature happens simultaneously to the effect of Relentless Endurance.
Differences in wording. The reason you don't drop prone and drop your items when relentless endurance is because RE states "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead." The word 'instead' means it replaces the normal consequences of being reduced to 0 HP.
However, the rules for Knocking a Creature Out do not change the consequences of dropping to 0 hp -- instead, they mean the creature does not drop to 0 hp in the first place. Thus, it is resolved after damage has been determined, but before damage has actually been applied, whereas relentless endurance/etc apply when the damage is applied.