According to the PHB 2024, verbal components break stealth 100% without a check. This can be found under the Hide action in the rules glossary at the back. However, the spells used for stealth in 2014 do not appear to have been updated. As an example, Thaumaturgy can be used to create noise at a point somewhere within 30 feet of the caster. Whether casting thaumaturgy required a stealth check at all was left to the DM's discretion prior to 2024. So we can't use this spell to distract guards when trying to sneak out of a building anymore with rules as written.
An example of an effected spell would be invisibility. A completely valid use case for casting invisibility in 2014 would be to prevent a hidden character from being discovered. The caster finds himself at a dead end while he was skulking about and a guard with a lantern is getting closer. The wizard casts invisibility on himself before the guard turns the corner, thus preventing himself from getting caught.
As feedback to the development team, I'd say in my playtest that while having a clear ruling on verbal components is excellent, there is work to be done on defining the spells. Perhaps spells like prestidigitation would have some uses where a verbal component is required and others where it is not.
[...] On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
So a successful hide action gives you the invisible condition, but with additional requirements to maintain it. So, functionally, being hidden is being unseen and unheard, just like in 2014. It just says so a little differently this time around.
The Verbal component is separate from, and precedes any Thaumaturgy effect, so the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast this spell.
The Verbal component is separate from, and precedes any Thaumaturgy effect, so the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast this spell.
Correct. Its also clear that they recognize spells would be effected, since they removed the verbal component from the message spell. However, there are many other spells that were missed in this update, such as Invisibility still requiring a verbal component. The phantom noises from spells like Thaumaturgy are intended as distractions. By RAW, it will now always break the invisible condition from hide, thus failing to fulfill its intended purpose.
I'm pretty sure Invisibility will get errata'd, although spells that act as bundles of minor utility abilities like Thaumaturgy will require more nuanced language going forward for a RAW interpretation to work.
Invisibility is not impacted because you gain the condition after you cast the spell, and it has separate though related actions that end the spell prematurely. Making spells like Thaumaturgy end the effect of hiding in combat is deliberate- keep in mind that is the primary function of the Hide rules, to conceal yourself during an encounter. In other circumstances it’s more up to the DM how you remain undetected.
Also, Thaumaturgy was never specifically designed as stealth support- it was the general purpose special effects cantrip for Clerics, and getting stealth support from it was between the user and their DM.
Invisibility is not impacted because you gain the condition after you cast the spell, and it has separate though related actions that end the spell prematurely. Making spells like Thaumaturgy end the effect of hiding in combat is deliberate- keep in mind that is the primary function of the Hide rules, to conceal yourself during an encounter. In other circumstances it’s more up to the DM how you remain undetected.
Also, Thaumaturgy was never specifically designed as stealth support- it was the general purpose special effects cantrip for Clerics, and getting stealth support from it was between the user and their DM.
My concerns relate to the new rule's effects on non-combat stealth where enemies do not know you are there to begin with. A RAW reading indicates casting the invisibility spell will alert those nearby of your presence as it infers all verbal components are louder than a whisper.
I agree that thaumaturgy is general use, which is why it should still remain generally useful for a trickery cleric. Making noise emanate from a point in range ceases to be general use if it is obvious who is making those noises in the first place.
Correct. Its also clear that they recognize spells would be effected, since they removed the verbal component from the message spell. However, there are many other spells that were missed in this update, such as Invisibility still requiring a verbal component. The phantom noises from spells like Thaumaturgy are intended as distractions. By RAW, it will now always break the invisible condition from hide, thus failing to fulfill its intended purpose.
While the Thaumaturgy effect may be used as distraction, it was never intended to be stealthy, it always had Verbal components meaning you have to be chanting esoteric words uttered in a normal speaking voice before any of it's effect occurs.
Invisibility is not impacted because you gain the condition after you cast the spell, and it has separate though related actions that end the spell prematurely. Making spells like Thaumaturgy end the effect of hiding in combat is deliberate- keep in mind that is the primary function of the Hide rules, to conceal yourself during an encounter. In other circumstances it’s more up to the DM how you remain undetected.
Also, Thaumaturgy was never specifically designed as stealth support- it was the general purpose special effects cantrip for Clerics, and getting stealth support from it was between the user and their DM.
My concerns relate to the new rule's effects on non-combat stealth where enemies do not know you are there to begin with. A RAW reading indicates casting the invisibility spell will alert those nearby of your presence as it infers all verbal components are louder than a whisper.
I agree that thaumaturgy is general use, which is why it should still remain generally useful for a trickery cleric. Making noise emanate from a point in range ceases to be general use if it is obvious who is making those noises in the first place.
Take into account the way of ending the Invisible condition depends on how you gained it:
Through the Hide action:
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Having the condition from the Hide action and then casting Invisibility makes an interesting combination: you lose the condition but gain it again.
EDIT: Am I right? Or would you guys rule that it isn't lost in this scenario?
In my opinion, the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast Invisibility. Then a creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends.
Having the condition from the Hide action and then casting Invisibility makes an interesting combination: you lose the condition but gain it again.
EDIT: Am I right? Or would you guys rule that it isn't lost in this scenario?
In my opinion, the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast Invisibility. Then a creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends.
That's how I see it too, based on how I understand the spellcasting components and Condition rules.
I don't know if you can see Invisible creature's sign language.
Fair point. I guess if your allies can see you, but your enemies cannot, then hiding simply wouldn't work. It would be really weird for your allies to watch you suddenly fade away like Homer Simpson disappearing into the hedge.
EDIT: Upon review, I'm not sure. The only line of sight requirement applies to your enemy. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
You need to be out of enemy's line of sight is when you make the Dexterity (Stealth) check. Once hidden, you're Invisible so this is what may prevent it. There's no description for what Common Sign Language means rule-wise but a DM may rule it require you to be seen.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
What confuses a lot of people (because the Devs massively misworded things) is that you don't actually become invisible when using Hide, you simply gain the benefits of the CONDITION of invisibility. Your friends can still see you, you are not in fact invisible, you are however, "unseen" by the enemy. They should have created a new condition called "unseen" or "hidden" and it would have solved the huge mess that they've now created.
When taking the HIde Action, you are not turning invisible - you simply have the benefits of the invisible condition but only against those that can't see or hear you.
According to the PHB 2024, verbal components break stealth 100% without a check. This can be found under the Hide action in the rules glossary at the back. However, the spells used for stealth in 2014 do not appear to have been updated. As an example, Thaumaturgy can be used to create noise at a point somewhere within 30 feet of the caster. Whether casting thaumaturgy required a stealth check at all was left to the DM's discretion prior to 2024. So we can't use this spell to distract guards when trying to sneak out of a building anymore with rules as written.
An example of an effected spell would be invisibility. A completely valid use case for casting invisibility in 2014 would be to prevent a hidden character from being discovered. The caster finds himself at a dead end while he was skulking about and a guard with a lantern is getting closer. The wizard casts invisibility on himself before the guard turns the corner, thus preventing himself from getting caught.
As feedback to the development team, I'd say in my playtest that while having a clear ruling on verbal components is excellent, there is work to be done on defining the spells. Perhaps spells like prestidigitation would have some uses where a verbal component is required and others where it is not.
Where are you getting that from?
pronouns: he/she/they
Maybe @awerges is referring to this?
@TarodNet Thanks for bringing that up. I added the source to the above post.
So a successful hide action gives you the invisible condition, but with additional requirements to maintain it. So, functionally, being hidden is being unseen and unheard, just like in 2014. It just says so a little differently this time around.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The Verbal component is separate from, and precedes any Thaumaturgy effect, so the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast this spell.
Correct. Its also clear that they recognize spells would be effected, since they removed the verbal component from the message spell. However, there are many other spells that were missed in this update, such as Invisibility still requiring a verbal component. The phantom noises from spells like Thaumaturgy are intended as distractions. By RAW, it will now always break the invisible condition from hide, thus failing to fulfill its intended purpose.
I'm pretty sure Invisibility will get errata'd, although spells that act as bundles of minor utility abilities like Thaumaturgy will require more nuanced language going forward for a RAW interpretation to work.
Invisibility is not impacted because you gain the condition after you cast the spell, and it has separate though related actions that end the spell prematurely. Making spells like Thaumaturgy end the effect of hiding in combat is deliberate- keep in mind that is the primary function of the Hide rules, to conceal yourself during an encounter. In other circumstances it’s more up to the DM how you remain undetected.
Also, Thaumaturgy was never specifically designed as stealth support- it was the general purpose special effects cantrip for Clerics, and getting stealth support from it was between the user and their DM.
My concerns relate to the new rule's effects on non-combat stealth where enemies do not know you are there to begin with. A RAW reading indicates casting the invisibility spell will alert those nearby of your presence as it infers all verbal components are louder than a whisper.
I agree that thaumaturgy is general use, which is why it should still remain generally useful for a trickery cleric. Making noise emanate from a point in range ceases to be general use if it is obvious who is making those noises in the first place.
While the Thaumaturgy effect may be used as distraction, it was never intended to be stealthy, it always had Verbal components meaning you have to be chanting esoteric words uttered in a normal speaking voice before any of it's effect occurs.
Take into account the way of ending the Invisible condition depends on how you gained it:
Through the Hide action:
Through the Invisibility spell:
Having the condition from the Hide action and then casting Invisibility makes an interesting combination: you lose the condition but gain it again.
EDIT: Am I right? Or would you guys rule that it isn't lost in this scenario?
The reason why Verbal component was removed from Message to my knowledge was not explained by WoTC, it doesn't even featured in the list of Revised Spells from their Updates in the Player’s Handbook (2024) | Dungeons & Dragons Blogpost.
It facilitate communication while hidden that's for sure.
In my opinion, the Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after you cast Invisibility. Then a creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends.
I kind of figured the sign language addition would do this as well.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't know if you can see Invisible creature's sign language.
That's how I see it too, based on how I understand the spellcasting components and Condition rules.
Fair point. I guess if your allies can see you, but your enemies cannot, then hiding simply wouldn't work. It would be really weird for your allies to watch you suddenly fade away like Homer Simpson disappearing into the hedge.
EDIT: Upon review, I'm not sure. The only line of sight requirement applies to your enemy. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You need to be out of enemy's line of sight is when you make the Dexterity (Stealth) check. Once hidden, you're Invisible so this is what may prevent it. There's no description for what Common Sign Language means rule-wise but a DM may rule it require you to be seen.
What confuses a lot of people (because the Devs massively misworded things) is that you don't actually become invisible when using Hide, you simply gain the benefits of the CONDITION of invisibility. Your friends can still see you, you are not in fact invisible, you are however, "unseen" by the enemy. They should have created a new condition called "unseen" or "hidden" and it would have solved the huge mess that they've now created.
When taking the HIde Action, you are not turning invisible - you simply have the benefits of the invisible condition but only against those that can't see or hear you.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.