It gets countered (using 2024 rules) - "If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended."
Can I then cast it again as a quickened spell (using 2024 rules) - "You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.".
The fundamental question is - has the original spell been cast given nothing happened, including no spell slot used ?
PS: This is a question, not a statement - please treat me kindly when responding :)
The full wording of counterspell is "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted. If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended."
To me the RAW seems to say that the spell was cast and so you aren't able to use quicken meta magic.
1. The phrase "If that spell was cast" tells us that the spell was cast but countered so that the magic didn't take effect.
2. The fact that the action, bonus action, or reaction is wasted implies that you did cast it but nothing happened.
3. The fact that if you cast the spell that was countered without using a spell slot you don't get that limited usage back implies that it was cast and the counterspell prevented the magic from taking effect
3. The fact that if you cast the spell that was countered without using a spell slot you don't get that limited usage back implies that it was cast and the counterspell prevented the magic from taking effect
That comparison explains it really well - thank you.
The PHB 2024 rule allows the following scenarios, as they comply with the "One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn" restriction:
One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can’t, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the Magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Legitimate Exceptions (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa):
Counterspell Interruption If your spell is Counterspelled, the slot isn’t expended (PHB 2024):
If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.
You retain your "one spell slot per turn" quota and can cast another spell with a Bonus Action (or vice versa).
The PHB 2024 rule allows the following scenarios, as they comply with the "One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn" restriction:
One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can’t, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the Magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Legitimate Exceptions (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa):
Counterspell Interruption If your spell is Counterspelled, the slot isn’t expended (PHB 2024):
If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.
You retain your "one spell slot per turn" quota and can cast another spell with a Bonus Action (or vice versa). [...]
I don't think this is correct. You expended one spell slot (the spell was cast), otherwise, how did you cast the spell that was counterspelled?
A successful Counterspell means no that spell spell slot was expended.
Oops! Sorry, I think my brain isn't working well today and I was thinking about a different scenario (the one about counter vs. counter). I'll update my previous reply.
The PHB 2024 rule allows the following scenarios, as they comply with the "One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn" restriction:
One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can’t, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the Magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Legitimate Exceptions (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa):
Counterspell Interruption If your spell is Counterspelled, the slot isn’t expended (PHB 2024):
If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.
You retain your "one spell slot per turn" quota and can cast another spell with a Bonus Action (or vice versa). [...]
I don't think this is correct. You expended one spell slot (the spell was cast), otherwise, how did you cast the spell that was counterspelled?
A successful Counterspell means no that spell spell slot was expended.
Oops! Sorry, I think my brain isn't working well today and I was thinking about a different scenario (the one about counter vs. counter). I'll update my previous reply.
And thanks!
I know what you're going to say.
Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.
For the purpose of discussions in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum, SAC is considered RAW. That has been true since it was published, and the clarification I have received is that is still considered RAW for 2024 rules discussions.
Popping in to say right now we've received clarification that the Sage Advice Compendium is still RAW for 2024 rules that have not been replaced. With regards to the clarifications on weapon attacks and spell attacks, the SAC rulings are still RAW.
As I mentioned, what you were saying is okay. What you can't do is this example from this thread (unless the counter or the spell you're casting is without a spell slot):
Popping in to say right now we've received clarification that the Sage Advice Compendium is still RAW for 2024 rules that have not been replaced. With regards to the clarifications on weapon attacks and spell attacks, the SAC rulings are still RAW.
As I mentioned, what you were saying is okay. What you can't do is this example from this thread (unless the counter or the spell you're casting is without a spell slot):
Or a Spell Scroll of Counterspell, so you don't require attunement. The new fashion in the Forgotten Realms.
Sure, scrolls have their charm.
However, Spell Scrolls present potential complexities with "read the scroll," whether they require Verbal components and use at least one hand to hold them, interactions with action economy and Interacting with Objects rules, and even the risk of being stolen or destroyed if hand on but not immediately cast.
By comparison, I prefer dedicating an Attunement slot to Enspelled Armor, which offers greater reliability, durability, and cost-effectiveness (its Charges automatically regain at dawn, unlike scrolls).
The PHB 2024 rule allows the following scenarios, as they comply with the "One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn" restriction:
One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can’t, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the Magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Legitimate Exceptions (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa):
Counterspell Interruption If your spell is Counterspelled, the slot isn’t expended (PHB 2024):
If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.
You retain your "one spell slot per turn" quota and can cast another spell with a Bonus Action (or vice versa).
This does not count toward the "one spell slot per turn" limit.
Magic Item Casting Spells cast via items (e.g., Staff of Power):
This spell uses no spell slot.
You can combine Magic Item casting with a slot-expended spell (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa).
This argument blatantly ignores the rules for quickened spell. The issue is whether you can use quickened spell after the level 1+ spell you cast is counterspelled. The argument about whether you can cast a spell using a spell slot after being counterspelled is non applicable to this interaction.
Quicken spell says "When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way."
The caster who is counterspelled already cast a level 1+ spell that got countered and therefore can't use quickened spell to try to cast another.
MeatLuggin was correct. You could still cast any spell that has a cast speed of a bonus action, like Misty Step. You could still cast another leveled spell on your turn, but not by using Quicken Spell because it's desciption specifically says you can't have already cast a leveled spell on the same turn (even from a class/species feature or magic item like a Wand of Fireballs that doesn't use a spell slot).
In fact, the same without using spell slots: quickening a spell and casting another level 1+ spell using a Magic Item (*) wouldn't be allowed.
* or through traits/features/feats that grant characters prepared level 1+ spells they can cast without using spell slots.
Exactly, that line about casting another leveled spell really nerfs quickened spell compared to 2014.
This interaction is weird though because you can quicken polymorph, have it counterspelled, and then try to cast it as an action. But if you try it the other way and cast polymorph as an action, have it counterspelled, then you can't try again as an quickened bonus action.
2024 sorcerers have to retrain themselves to quicken their big spell first and then follow up with the cantrip as an action because RAW it doesn't work to cast the big spell as an action and quicken the cantrip.
2024 sorcerers have to retrain themselves to quicken their big spell first and then follow up with the cantrip as an action because RAW it doesn't work to cast the big spell as an action and quicken the cantrip.
Yea but that is the same way it worked in 2014. The bonus action limitation on spells meant that you needed to quicken the main spell if you wanted to be able to cast a cantrip too.
Exactly, that line about casting another leveled spell really nerfs quickened spell compared to 2014.
Quickened spell isn't really nerfed, it has pretty much the same limitation in 2024 as in 2014.
It is just that casting levelled spells without spell slots got a lot easier (and more powerful) for everyone which makes quickened spell worth less in comparison.
Exactly. Quicken hasn't changed one bit, even though other spellcasting has. Action Cantrip, BA leveled spell, no Reaction spell that turn when using Quickened Spell.
I'm casting a normal spell - say polymorph.
It gets countered (using 2024 rules) - "If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended."
Can I then cast it again as a quickened spell (using 2024 rules) - "You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.".
The fundamental question is - has the original spell been cast given nothing happened, including no spell slot used ?
PS: This is a question, not a statement - please treat me kindly when responding :)
The full wording of counterspell is "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted. If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended."
To me the RAW seems to say that the spell was cast and so you aren't able to use quicken meta magic.
1. The phrase "If that spell was cast" tells us that the spell was cast but countered so that the magic didn't take effect.
2. The fact that the action, bonus action, or reaction is wasted implies that you did cast it but nothing happened.
3. The fact that if you cast the spell that was countered without using a spell slot you don't get that limited usage back implies that it was cast and the counterspell prevented the magic from taking effect
That comparison explains it really well - thank you.
The PHB 2024 rule allows the following scenarios, as they comply with the "One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn" restriction:
Legitimate Exceptions (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa):
Counterspell Interruption
You retain your "one spell slot per turn" quota and can cast another spell with a Bonus Action (or vice versa).If your spell is Counterspelled, the slot isn’t expended (PHB 2024):
Non-Spell Slot Casting
This does not count toward the "one spell slot per turn" limit.Racial/feature-based casting (e.g., Elves Lineages):
Magic Item Casting
Spells cast via items (e.g., Staff of Power):
You can combine Magic Item casting with a slot-expended spell (Action + Bonus Action or vice versa).
EDIT: sorry, wrong answer!, see below.
A successful Counterspell means no that spell spell slot was expended.
And thanks!
I know what you're going to say.
@Argenix the spellcasting rules have changed. You missed this reply:
As I mentioned, what you were saying is okay. What you can't do is this example from this thread (unless the counter or the spell you're casting is without a spell slot):
Edited due to network latency.
I regret that we need the Counterspell of Enspelled Armor.
Or a Spell Scroll of Counterspell, so you don't require attunement. The new fashion in the Forgotten Realms.
Sure, scrolls have their charm.
However, Spell Scrolls present potential complexities with "read the scroll," whether they require Verbal components and use at least one hand to hold them, interactions with action economy and Interacting with Objects rules, and even the risk of being stolen or destroyed if hand on but not immediately cast.
By comparison, I prefer dedicating an Attunement slot to Enspelled Armor, which offers greater reliability, durability, and cost-effectiveness (its Charges automatically regain at dawn, unlike scrolls).
This argument blatantly ignores the rules for quickened spell. The issue is whether you can use quickened spell after the level 1+ spell you cast is counterspelled. The argument about whether you can cast a spell using a spell slot after being counterspelled is non applicable to this interaction.
Quicken spell says "When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way."
The caster who is counterspelled already cast a level 1+ spell that got countered and therefore can't use quickened spell to try to cast another.
Agreed.
In fact, the same without using spell slots: quickening a spell and casting another level 1+ spell using a Magic Item (*) wouldn't be allowed.
* or through traits/features/feats that grant characters prepared level 1+ spells they can cast without using spell slots.
MeatLuggin was correct. You could still cast any spell that has a cast speed of a bonus action, like Misty Step. You could still cast another leveled spell on your turn, but not by using Quicken Spell because it's desciption specifically says you can't have already cast a leveled spell on the same turn (even from a class/species feature or magic item like a Wand of Fireballs that doesn't use a spell slot).
Exactly, that line about casting another leveled spell really nerfs quickened spell compared to 2014.
This interaction is weird though because you can quicken polymorph, have it counterspelled, and then try to cast it as an action. But if you try it the other way and cast polymorph as an action, have it counterspelled, then you can't try again as an quickened bonus action.
2024 sorcerers have to retrain themselves to quicken their big spell first and then follow up with the cantrip as an action because RAW it doesn't work to cast the big spell as an action and quicken the cantrip.
Yea but that is the same way it worked in 2014. The bonus action limitation on spells meant that you needed to quicken the main spell if you wanted to be able to cast a cantrip too.
Quickened spell isn't really nerfed, it has pretty much the same limitation in 2024 as in 2014.
It is just that casting levelled spells without spell slots got a lot easier (and more powerful) for everyone which makes quickened spell worth less in comparison.
Exactly. Quicken hasn't changed one bit, even though other spellcasting has. Action Cantrip, BA leveled spell, no Reaction spell that turn when using Quickened Spell.
Is that right? "... nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way."