Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.
Given all things that changed, the example given is in effect the same as in 2014 and demonstrates the intent that wielding two light weapons can be done if the two different weapons are in in two different hands.
Just the wording has been rearranged to accommodate the Nick Weapon Mastery. The intent remains the same as it was in 2014, two light weapon wielding is how you get the bonus action extra attack.
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
(assuming this was directed at me)
Sure you can use it to find RAI, but it does nothing to determine RAW.
Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.
Given all things that changed, the example given is in effect the same as in 2014 and demonstrates the intent that wielding two light weapons can be done if the two different weapons are in in two different hands.
Just the wording has been rearranged to accommodate the Nick Weapon Mastery. The intent remains the same as it was in 2014, two light weapon wielding is how you get the bonus action extra attack.
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
Why keep bringing 2014 up when we are talking about 2024? Also, examples never give all possibilities as that's the definition of an example. So no you cannot use the example to say you need to use the off-hand.
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"grandpa" Salkur, Gnome Arti/Sorc: Forged in Chaos | Pepin, Human Arti/Cleric: Goblin horde | Mixtli, Volc Genasi Arti: Champions of the Citadel | Erix Vadalitis, Human Druid: Rising from the last war |Smithy, Human Arti: Night Ravens: Black orchids for Biscotti | Tamphalic Aliprax, Dragonborn Wizard: Chronicles of the Accursed | Doc, Dwarven Cleric (2024): Adventure at Hope's End | Abathax, Tiefling Illriger: Hunt for the Balowang | Gorin Mestel, Human Arti: Descend into Avernus
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
The example is just a sample use case, if we were to stick to the example then the Crossbow Expert feat would be complete and utter garbage due to the Dual Wielding section which specifically allows using the ability modifier for damage when performing an extra attack from the light property with a crossbow that has the light property.
Naturally we know that the Crossbow Expert feat is not because the example under the light property is only an example, it is not a repeat of the intention, as such, we specifically know from the crossbow expert feat that the light property works with at least 1 RANGED weapon, that being crossbows with the light property. So we can now both explicitly and implicitly infer that the extra attack from the light property is not limited too melee weapons.
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
The example is just a sample use case, if we were to stick to the example then the Crossbow Expert feat would be complete and utter garbage due to the Dual Wielding section which specifically allows using the ability modifier for damage when performing an extra attack from the light property with a crossbow that has the light property.
Naturally we know that the Crossbow Expert feat is not because the example under the light property is only an example, it is not a repeat of the intention, as such, we specifically know from the crossbow expert feat that the light property works with at least 1 RANGED weapon, that being crossbows with the light property. So we can now both explicitly and implicitly infer that the extra attack from the light property is not limited too melee weapons.
And the 2024 version of crossbow expert only affirms that any light property crossbow ( the hand crossbow ) can be be two weapon dual wielded , one in each hand and because you can by the feat ignore the loading property that would normally only allow one attack with the weapon before needing to use an action to reload the weapon. ( could be because a spring loaded clip can be added to handle reloading?) Same as it was in 2014, and in that same respect two weapon dual wielded weapons are only limited to a few light ranged weapons daggers and crossbows, and the Dual Wielding feat added any ranged weapon that could be thrown that wasn’t a two-Handed weapon. If the weapon had the loading property, that limited the number of attacks unless you had the crossbow expert feat that allowed ignoring the loading property.
Nether 2014 or 2024 limited light weapon fighting or the Dual Wielding Feat to only melee weapons, but you had to be aware of any limitations the weapons themselves might impose due to multiple properties.
And if you look at how in 2024 the light property changed from 2014 and how the Two weapon fighting feature from 2014 was removed and placed into the 2024 light property, you can see why so many Feats and features that make use of light weapon dual wielding also got reworked to acknowledge the bonus attack doesn’t get the normal damage proficiency.
In order to understand how 2024 now changes the dynamic, you have to understand where they got it from, and in what they rewrote still maintains the same dynamic that existed in 2014.
The 2024 example only serves to demonstrate that unless the two weapons are different ( aka not the same weapon just switched to the other hand) and held in different hands does one hand not get the damage proficiency. If you use the same hand for juggling weapons why would they even include the non proficiency damage bonus if you have no way of knowing if the weapon is a different weapon and include the non damage bonus in a number of additional places?
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
(assuming this was directed at me)
Sure you can use it to find RAI, but it does nothing to determine RAW.
Not directed at you, but everyone who only uses parts of certain rules and ignores the rest to attempt to circumvent the intent of how the rule is designed and to create confusion about how it actually works and should be applied.
Weapon juggling with a shield is not dual wielding unless a DM allows for the shield to count as a weapon, and even then your limited to needing the dual wielder feat because a shield isn’t a light property object. You receive the bonus penalty from having the different weapon in a different hand, otherwise you wouldn’t get that penalty at all and there would be no reason for it.
The 2024 example is the intent of why the penalty is there, the different weapon is held by the other hand.
By ignoring the example you are effectively ignoring the penalty that is supposed to apply to wielding two different weapons in two different hands.
Again we might agree to disagree, but both RAW and RAI are clearly written to align with each other in this matter.
The Sage Advice answer given is just a lawyers answer that does nothing to actually address the bigger issue. But then again that is how it usually is when the question is worded such that the easy answer can be given by maximum effort.
Again the question that should be asked of Sage Advice is can you get the light weapon bonus action extra attack if you are wielding a shield?
Answer that and issue solved, but two copper one in each hand says the answer would be a no, and that would upset a fair number of players, so I personally don’t see it getting answered anytime soon.
If the intent was to reword light weapon dual wielding to accommodate the Nick Mastery, then they nerfed the heck out of dual wielding in general, as the need to reword it was unnecessary. All it does is create confusion and needless division in what the actual intent is.
Till a more comprehensive answer is provided, wielding a shield does not mean you can gain the bonus action extra attack unless some major juggling and action economy are involved that allows the bonus attack to be made by the shield wielding hand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I'd like to highlight an important difference between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats:
(2014) Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action?
It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.
(2024) Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a Hand Crossbow and then fire it again as a Bonus Action?
The Crossbow Expert feat allows you to fire a Hand Crossbow multiple times on your turn. But you still must abide by the rules of the Hand Crossbow’s Light property, which state that the property’s additional attack must be made with a different weapon.
No rules prevent you to use the same hand when making the extra attack of the Light Property with a different weapon, or draw it as part of the attack when Thrown.
This. When holding a shield, the limitation is not about having a 2nd hand free, since that isn't specified in the other relevant 2024 rules. The limitation is the draw/stow economy that is usually overlooked. Since thrown weapons always get their own draw, and you don't have to stow them, you don't have to carefully account for weapon swaps while also holding a shield, or a focus. Thrown weapons can also allow a Ranger/EK to have a hand free to do a somatic component of a reaction spell like Shield or Absorb Elements, if you don't have War Caster. The drawbacks are that you have to carry many, only d4 or d6 damage die, and they are unlikely to all be magic for bonuses.
2014 basic rules light property:
Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.
Given all things that changed, the example given is in effect the same as in 2014 and demonstrates the intent that wielding two light weapons can be done if the two different weapons are in in two different hands.
Just the wording has been rearranged to accommodate the Nick Weapon Mastery. The intent remains the same as it was in 2014, two light weapon wielding is how you get the bonus action extra attack.
Saying the example is not valid rules intended even when it’s still part of the rules just as it was before, well then it appears we agree to disagree.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
(assuming this was directed at me)
Sure you can use it to find RAI, but it does nothing to determine RAW.
Why keep bringing 2014 up when we are talking about 2024? Also, examples never give all possibilities as that's the definition of an example. So no you cannot use the example to say you need to use the off-hand.
"grandpa" Salkur, Gnome Arti/Sorc: Forged in Chaos | Pepin, Human Arti/Cleric: Goblin horde | Mixtli, Volc Genasi Arti: Champions of the Citadel | Erix Vadalitis, Human Druid: Rising from the last war | Smithy, Human Arti: Night Ravens: Black orchids for Biscotti | Tamphalic Aliprax, Dragonborn Wizard: Chronicles of the Accursed | Doc, Dwarven Cleric (2024): Adventure at Hope's End | Abathax, Tiefling Illriger: Hunt for the Balowang | Gorin Mestel, Human Arti: Descend into Avernus
The example is just a sample use case, if we were to stick to the example then the Crossbow Expert feat would be complete and utter garbage due to the Dual Wielding section which specifically allows using the ability modifier for damage when performing an extra attack from the light property with a crossbow that has the light property.
Naturally we know that the Crossbow Expert feat is not because the example under the light property is only an example, it is not a repeat of the intention, as such, we specifically know from the crossbow expert feat that the light property works with at least 1 RANGED weapon, that being crossbows with the light property. So we can now both explicitly and implicitly infer that the extra attack from the light property is not limited too melee weapons.
And the 2024 version of crossbow expert only affirms that any light property crossbow ( the hand crossbow ) can be be two weapon dual wielded , one in each hand and because you can by the feat ignore the loading property that would normally only allow one attack with the weapon before needing to use an action to reload the weapon. ( could be because a spring loaded clip can be added to handle reloading?)
Same as it was in 2014, and in that same respect two weapon dual wielded weapons are only limited to a few light ranged weapons daggers and crossbows, and the Dual Wielding feat added any ranged weapon that could be thrown that wasn’t a two-Handed weapon. If the weapon had the loading property, that limited the number of attacks unless you had the crossbow expert feat that allowed ignoring the loading property.
Nether 2014 or 2024 limited light weapon fighting or the Dual Wielding Feat to only melee weapons, but you had to be aware of any limitations the weapons themselves might impose due to multiple properties.
And if you look at how in 2024 the light property changed from 2014 and how the Two weapon fighting feature from 2014 was removed and placed into the 2024 light property, you can see why so many Feats and features that make use of light weapon dual wielding also got reworked to acknowledge the bonus attack doesn’t get the normal damage proficiency.
In order to understand how 2024 now changes the dynamic, you have to understand where they got it from, and in what they rewrote still maintains the same dynamic that existed in 2014.
The 2024 example only serves to demonstrate that unless the two weapons are different ( aka not the same weapon just switched to the other hand) and held in different hands does one hand not get the damage proficiency. If you use the same hand for juggling weapons why would they even include the non proficiency damage bonus if you have no way of knowing if the weapon is a different weapon and include the non damage bonus in a number of additional places?
Not directed at you, but everyone who only uses parts of certain rules and ignores the rest to attempt to circumvent the intent of how the rule is designed and to create confusion about how it actually works and should be applied.
Weapon juggling with a shield is not dual wielding unless a DM allows for the shield to count as a weapon, and even then your limited to needing the dual wielder feat because a shield isn’t a light property object.
You receive the bonus penalty from having the different weapon in a different hand, otherwise you wouldn’t get that penalty at all and there would be no reason for it.
The 2024 example is the intent of why the penalty is there, the different weapon is held by the other hand.
By ignoring the example you are effectively ignoring the penalty that is supposed to apply to wielding two different weapons in two different hands.
Again we might agree to disagree, but both RAW and RAI are clearly written to align with each other in this matter.
The Sage Advice answer given is just a lawyers answer that does nothing to actually address the bigger issue. But then again that is how it usually is when the question is worded such that the easy answer can be given by maximum effort.
Again the question that should be asked of Sage Advice is can you get the light weapon bonus action extra attack if you are wielding a shield?
Answer that and issue solved, but two copper one in each hand says the answer would be a no, and that would upset a fair number of players, so I personally don’t see it getting answered anytime soon.
If the intent was to reword light weapon dual wielding to accommodate the Nick Mastery, then they nerfed the heck out of dual wielding in general, as the need to reword it was unnecessary. All it does is create confusion and needless division in what the actual intent is.
Till a more comprehensive answer is provided, wielding a shield does not mean you can gain the bonus action extra attack unless some major juggling and action economy are involved that allows the bonus attack to be made by the shield wielding hand.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I'd like to highlight an important difference between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats:
(2014) Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action?
It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.
(2024) Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a Hand Crossbow and then fire it again as a Bonus Action?
The Crossbow Expert feat allows you to fire a Hand Crossbow multiple times on your turn. But you still must abide by the rules of the Hand Crossbow’s Light property, which state that the property’s additional attack must be made with a different weapon.
This. When holding a shield, the limitation is not about having a 2nd hand free, since that isn't specified in the other relevant 2024 rules. The limitation is the draw/stow economy that is usually overlooked. Since thrown weapons always get their own draw, and you don't have to stow them, you don't have to carefully account for weapon swaps while also holding a shield, or a focus. Thrown weapons can also allow a Ranger/EK to have a hand free to do a somatic component of a reaction spell like Shield or Absorb Elements, if you don't have War Caster. The drawbacks are that you have to carry many, only d4 or d6 damage die, and they are unlikely to all be magic for bonuses.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.