The Invisible condition literally conceals you. It explicitly says so.
No, it doesn't. The invisibility spell conceals you. Hiding conceals you. What the invisible condition does is it tells you the mechanical effects of being concealed.
Technically, the invisible condition tells you the mechanical effects of being invisible. Which include being concealed and several mechanical consequences.
I cannot buy this argument that it redefines the word such that being concealed doesn't mean being concealed.
The Invisible condition literally conceals you. It explicitly says so.
No, it doesn't. The invisibility spell conceals you. Hiding conceals you. What the invisible condition does is it tells you the mechanical effects of being concealed.
Technically, the invisible condition tells you the mechanical effects of being invisible. Which include being concealed and several mechanical consequences.
I cannot buy this argument that it redefines the word such that being concealed doesn't mean being concealed.
Except concealed in this context is the title for an effect, not the body of the effect. And, speaking of effects, people keep ignoring that the text for Concealed only applies to effects. You don’t need to use a particular action or feature to see something in plain view, it simply happens. Ergo, there is no effect for concealed to prevent that disallows a creature in combat from being aware when something comes out from cover or another obscuring effect.
Let's be very clear what you're trying to argue: that the Invisible condition doesn't make you, well, invisible.
This doesn't just affect Stealth. It means that none of the various forms of magical invisibility - whether spell or magic item - actually make you invisible. They just give you some Advantage/Disadvantage in combat. That Legendary Cloak of Invisibility? Yeah, it's just a fancy way to get Advantage on attacks. It doesn't actually conceal you.
It also means that See Invisibility is worded very strangely: "For the duration, you see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Creatures and objects there appear ghostly." Why would they bother with that "as if they were visible" clause when, as you argue, Invisible creatures/objects are actually visible? Why would Truesight have the line "Invisibility. You see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition." if anyone could already see them?
Except concealed in this context is the title for an effect, not the body of the effect.
That is not compelling at all. If "Concealed" were a glossary entry, then it would add up. The condition is saying you are concealed, then adding mechanics on top of it.
And, speaking of effects, people keep ignoring that the text for Concealed only applies to effects. You don’t need to use a particular action or feature to see something in plain view, it simply happens. Ergo, there is no effect for concealed to prevent that disallows a creature in combat from being aware when something comes out from cover or another obscuring effect.
...which only makes sense if you buy that "concealed" is a technical term, defined to not mean "concealed" anymore. This house of cards is not well built.
Except, it doesn't "make sense" even with that part, because it would mean the Invisible Condition is entirely self-defeating (from hiding, the spell, whatever), and would mean that any use of the word "conceal" in the books is effectively powerless. Which is a fine argument if your case is actually "hey, the editors should have thought more about rules lawyers!" But it's a terrible, bad-faith argument for actual rules-lawyering, because it's essentially cutting off one's nose to spite the face.
Let's be very clear what you're trying to argue: that the Invisible condition doesn't make you, well, invisible.
This doesn't just affect Stealth. It means that none of the various forms of magical invisibility - whether spell or magic item - actually make you invisible. They just give you some Advantage/Disadvantage in combat. That Legendary Cloak of Invisibility? Yeah, it's just a fancy way to get Advantage on attacks. It doesn't actually conceal you.
It also means that See Invisibility is worded very strangely: "For the duration, you see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Creatures and objects there appear ghostly." Why would they bother with that "as if they were visible" clause when, as you argue, Invisible creatures/objects are actually visible? Why would Truesight have the line "Invisibility. You see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition." if anyone could already see them?
And instead we are supposed to infer that rolling a 15 on Stealth should function exactly the same as a Legendary magic item, and render all enemies objectively incapable of perceiving you? Despite text clearly stating that concealment doesn’t work if you can be perceived being an explicit part of the same passage you are insisting makes Stealth rolls into a magic power?
The obvious answer to your question regarding the Invisibility spell is that any DM with half an ounce of common sense will adjudicate the conditions by which a creature can “somehow” see the subject of an Invisibility spell are different from the ones to see a creature that was skulking in shadows or behind thick foliage.
Which raises the most relevant point- that “somehow” is undefined, and thus it defaults to the DM to determine the parameters in a given instance. The Hide Action and Invisible condition are not clubs that can be used to beat a DM over the head with- the implementation and results are up to the DM. Technically they can rule they’re running stealth Skyrim style, but I expect most DMs will realize that’s a bad idea after a few encounters with a Rogue spending 90% of the time Invisible.
Is that the intended behavior? Unlikely. However, you don't really get to pick and choose which rules you are taking literally.
You literally do because the #1 rule in D&D 5e is that if a rule is getting in the way of fun at the table, it is the job of the DM to change it.
Rule 0 is not a productive point to raise in a discussion of RAW, because it renders any discussion on the topic moot when invoked. That’s not to say it should not be used in play, but it’s outside the useful scope of a debate regarding RAW.
Let's be very clear what you're trying to argue: that the Invisible condition doesn't make you, well, invisible.
Yes. Absolutely. That is 100% true. Just like the Poisoned condition doesn't make you poisoned. You get the Poisoned condition because you have been poisoned.
The Invisibility spell makes you invisible. The mechanical effects are described by the Invisible condition.
Hiding doesn't make you literally invisible, but it does render you unseen. Its mechanical effects are also described by the invisible condition.
The primary way they mechanically differ is by how they determine that the condition ends. Invisibility has fairly simple and well-defined termination conditions. Hiding doesn't. All the rules arguments about hiding ought to be about the termination conditions, and talking about how the Invisible condition makes you invisible just confuses the issue.
The Invisibility spell: "A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell."
It does the exact same thing Hide does: it gives you the Invisible condition. If you believe that Invisibility makes you unseen, then you believe Hide makes you unseen. If you believe the Invisible condition doesn't make you unseen, then neither Invisibility nor Hide makes you unseen.
The ending conditions for Invisibility and Hide are both explicitly listed. There is nothing vague about either one.
The explicit ending conditions for the Invisibility spell that people are referring to are these: "The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell."
So, 6 hours later this target creature is still invisible? Why not? The duration expiring isn't listed as one of your ending conditions.
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends.
Hiding is a little different, but not much. It doesn't have an exact predetermined duration like the Invisibility spell. Instead, hiding is an ongoing activity which lasts for as long as you continue to successfully Hide.
The explicit ending conditions for the Hide action that people are referring to are these: "You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
So, 6 hours later while (quietly) wandering around town out in the open among dozens of enemies this creature is still hiding? Why not? Being seen isn't listed as one of your ending conditions (sort of).
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden.
The explicit ending conditions for the Invisibility spell that people are referring to are these: "The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell."
So, 6 hours later this target creature is still invisible? Why not? The duration expiring isn't listed as one of your ending conditions.
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends.
Hiding is a little different, but not much. It doesn't have an exact predetermined duration like the Invisibility spell. Instead, hiding is an ongoing activity which lasts for as long as you continue to successfully Hide.
The explicit ending conditions for the Hide action that people are referring to are these: "You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
So, 6 hours later while (quietly) wandering around town out in the open among dozens of enemies this creature is still hiding? Why not? Being seen isn't listed as one of your ending conditions (sort of).
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden.
The issue here is what you quoted is not in the print version of the book. It is now in the online version of the book. The print version lacks the "while hidden" statement
The issue here is what you quoted is not in the print version of the book. It is now in the online version of the book. The print version lacks the "while hidden" statement
The online version includes recent errata that appear in more recent printing per Changelog - - D&D Beyond so future PHB will include while hidden text.
Player’s Handbook (2024)
This update corrects and clarifies some text in the Player’s Handbook (2024). The changes appear in recent printings of the book. These changes have been applied across D&D Beyond and can also be found via downloadable PDF.
The issue here is what you quoted is not in the print version of the book. It is now in the online version of the book. The print version lacks the "while hidden" statement
The online version includes recent errata that appear in more recent printing per Changelog - - D&D Beyond so future PHB will include while hidden text.
Player’s Handbook (2024)
This update corrects and clarifies some text in the Player’s Handbook (2024). The changes appear in recent printings of the book. These changes have been applied across D&D Beyond and can also be found via downloadable PDF.
It will. But in my experience with talking to people online it will seldom matter. Most people don’t look at the errata or the online versions or the reprinted book.
So I would expect this topic is going to keep coming up because the original print run excluded the information.
So I would expect this topic is going to keep coming up because the original print run excluded the information.
It doesn't matter significantly. The errata does not actually change anything in this topic. The big argument (well, one of several, but probably the core interesting one) is about whether or not leaving cover/obscurement causes the character to no longer be hidden. The rules give a pretty explicit list of what ends the hidden condition (getting found, making too much noise, attacking, casting a verbal spell), and it noteably does not include leaving cover.
This is, conceptually, an argument over whether or not Hide is viable combat or sneaking-around tactic, vs it only really being for staying behind cover.
The issue here is what you quoted is not in the print version of the book. It is now in the online version of the book. The print version lacks the "while hidden" statement
The online version includes recent errata that appear in more recent printing per Changelog - - D&D Beyond so future PHB will include while hidden text.
Player’s Handbook (2024)
This update corrects and clarifies some text in the Player’s Handbook (2024). The changes appear in recent printings of the book. These changes have been applied across D&D Beyond and can also be found via downloadable PDF.
Out of curiosity ... what does "while hidden" even mean in the 2024 rules?
The hide action grants the invisible condition when successful.
The requirement to make the hide action include:
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
You stop being hidden by "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component". Note that the conditions required to TAKE the hide action are no longer required to maintain being hidden since they are not listed in the ways a creature can stop being hidden.
This list does not include walking in front of other creatures while you have the invisible condition due to the successful hide action for example.
However, what does "a creature finds you" mean? Does this specifically refer to successful use of a Search action? If you haven't seen the invisible (due to hiding) but standing in front of you creature - would you have any reason to make a search action?
Can a creature be seen when they are invisible? Both hiding and the invisibility spell use exactly the same condition - either a creature under the invisible condition is visible or they are not since there is only one condition. The condition itself does not say.
"While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature."
The invisible condition indicates that a creature is concealed and that you aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen "unless the effect's creator can somehow see you". However, the invisible condition does not define what is required to see an invisible creature. Presumably See Invisible, Truesight and Blindsight would all work. Can a creature without those see a creature who is invisible due the hide action? The rules of the invisible condition would seem to imply no if the same condition is used for both the invisibility spell and hiding.
Next - can the DM just decide when a creature is no longer hidden? Short answer is yes but you have to go all the way back to it being the DMs game and the fact that they can run it however they want to justify it.
Under the rules for hiding:
"Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action."
The DM gets to choose if it is appropriate for hiding and when a creature can make the hide action. It doesn't explicitly state that a DM decides if conditions are no longer appropriate for being hidden because the rules explicitly define all the ways being hidden is lost .. and the DM deciding for an arbitrary reason or because that is how they run their game is simply implicit not explicit.
Basically, by trying to simplify the rules on hiding and using the invisible condition for both, the designers have created a set of rules where the hide action becomes almost identical to the invisibility spell with the only difference being the requirement not to make a sound greater than a whisper which is effectively just the initial stealth check required to hide in the first place.
The rules don't state how long the "hidden" state lasts. Time and local environment are not listed as ways to become unhidden. So the one stealth roll could conceivably be interpreted to last the entire day - at least based on RAW.
Personally, I don't run it this way. However, I know folks who adhere very closely to RAW and DO run it this way. This can cause table arguments, disagreement on how a creature can hide - whether a player or an NPC - whether they are unseen when they become invisible due to hiding or the spell or some other mechanism. It also causes a bit of cognitive dissonance as players encounter in game behaviors supported by the rules that don't match with how a player expects these effects to work. (i.e invisible means that a creature is unseen - hidden just means that a creature is un-noticed .. but could be seen if someone has any reason to look. Unfortunately, this isn't what the rules state as far as I can tell - I'd be very happy to be corrected if I have missed some element of the rules that allows this to function as one might expect hiding to work in the real world).
Out of curiosity ... what does "while hidden" even mean in the 2024 rules?
This is essentially the "duration" of the Hide action, which is variable.
In this context, "while hidden" means "while you continue to hide". In other words, hiding is an ongoing activity, and the value of your Stealth roll persists as time marches forward. You save the value of that Stealth roll to be used as a DC for some potential future dice check, but only if you remain hidden until then. Meaning, the value of your Stealth roll remains valid and in effect while you remain hidden. If at some point along the way you stop being stealthy but then you decide that you want to be stealthy again, then you would need to make a new roll for a new Stealth value. Your previous Stealth check's value has expired / is no longer valid because you stopped hiding at some point. The stealth check's value and the associated benefits only apply "while hidden", not when you are not hidden.
The hide action grants the invisible condition when successful.
While this statement is true, it is incomplete and misses critical information.
The main thing that a successful Hide action actually does is that it causes you to be "concealed" / "hidden" (The word "hidden" is used as a synonym for "concealed" within this text):
(Also -- Important Note -- in this context we are talking about the common English language version of the word "concealed" as used within the text of the Hide action, NOT the feature label that is used within the body of the Invisible condition.)
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed . . .
The reason why this is important is because in the 2024 ruleset, just like in the 2014 ruleset, the entirety of the rules and mechanics that are related to the concept of hiding are not all contained in one place. The text for the Hide action is a good place to start, but it doesn't contain all of the information.
For example, once it is confirmed that you are successfully "hidden", then the associated rules and mechanics that are listed within the Unseen Attackers and Targets section now apply to you as well as what is listed in the Hide action. The text for the Invisible condition has some overlap with the rules that are listed in the Unseen Attackers and Targets section, but it's not identical. There is text within the Invisible condition that does not appear in the section on Unseen Attackers and Targets. Likewise, there is also text within the section on Unseen Attackers and Targets that does not appear within the Invisible condition:
Invisible:
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
Unseen Attackers and Targets:
When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss.
When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
When you successfully Hide, ALL of this applies. Taken together, it becomes clear that hiding does not just confirm that you are unseen (you have the Invisible condition) but you also can no longer be heard (an additional benefit that is not discussed within the Invisible condition and not explicitly mentioned within the text for the Hide action except for the fact that the Hide action confirms that you are successfully "concealed" / "hidden" and therefore everything that applies to that concept is in effect)
You stop being hidden by "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component". Note that the conditions required to TAKE the hide action are no longer required to maintain being hidden since they are not listed in the ways a creature can stop being hidden.
This list does not include walking in front of other creatures while you have the invisible condition due to the successful hide action for example.
It doesn't matter that that list does not include walking in front of other creatures. That situation is covered elsewhere.
In addition, when carefully reading that section of text it becomes clear that that list is not an exhaustive list. It's simply a list of some of the things that definitely cause you to immediately stop being hidden. Any others would generally be situational corner cases that are ruled on by the DM on a case-by-case basis (Is the situation "appropriate for hiding" according to the DM?).
The situation of walking in front of other creatures is covered by the phrase "while hidden". While you are hidden, there are some things that will definitely cause you to immediately stop being hidden. But also realize that you only have the benefits of hiding "while hidden". If you are not hiding then you do not have those benefits, by explicit rule. This is the clarification that was added by the recent errata.
It would sort of be better if this discussion had its own thread because it somewhat confuses the issue for this discussion. It's true that according to the current 2024 text a creature with the Invisible condition can be seen. However, for the purposes of the hiding and stealth discussion, I think that it would be better if we all operated under the assumption that this will be fixed at some point via errata and we should all work under the assumption that a creature with the Invisible condition cannot be seen for the purposes of discussing how Stealth functions in this ruleset.
Next - can the DM just decide when a creature is no longer hidden? Short answer is yes but you have to go all the way back to it being the DMs game and the fact that they can run it however they want to justify it.
Under the rules for hiding:
"Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action."
The DM gets to choose if it is appropriate for hiding and when a creature can make the hide action. It doesn't explicitly state that a DM decides if conditions are no longer appropriate for being hidden because the rules explicitly define all the ways being hidden is lost .. and the DM deciding for an arbitrary reason or because that is how they run their game is simply implicit not explicit.
No, this rule applies at all times. Hiding is an ongoing activity. It doesn't matter if you have not started hiding yet or if you are already hiding -- if the DM decides that circumstances are not appropriate for hiding at a particular time then you simply cannot hide at that time. If you cannot hide, then you cannot begin hiding and you also cannot continue hiding -- because you cannot hide.
The rules don't state how long the "hidden" state lasts. Time and local environment are not listed as ways to become unhidden. So the one stealth roll could conceivably be interpreted to last the entire day - at least based on RAW.
Sort of. It's true that a stealth roll could remain valid for an entire day . . . as long as you remain hidden during that time. The "duration" of having the benefits of hiding is "while hidden", which is variable in terms of its length of time, but it's clear that such benefits expire when you are no longer hiding.
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so...
"To do so" refers to "you try". Therefore, the conditions mentioned next apply to the attempt at hiding, not the ongoing activity of the "hidden" state.
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Technically, the invisible condition tells you the mechanical effects of being invisible. Which include being concealed and several mechanical consequences.
I cannot buy this argument that it redefines the word such that being concealed doesn't mean being concealed.
Except concealed in this context is the title for an effect, not the body of the effect. And, speaking of effects, people keep ignoring that the text for Concealed only applies to effects. You don’t need to use a particular action or feature to see something in plain view, it simply happens. Ergo, there is no effect for concealed to prevent that disallows a creature in combat from being aware when something comes out from cover or another obscuring effect.
Let's be very clear what you're trying to argue: that the Invisible condition doesn't make you, well, invisible.
This doesn't just affect Stealth. It means that none of the various forms of magical invisibility - whether spell or magic item - actually make you invisible. They just give you some Advantage/Disadvantage in combat. That Legendary Cloak of Invisibility? Yeah, it's just a fancy way to get Advantage on attacks. It doesn't actually conceal you.
It also means that See Invisibility is worded very strangely: "For the duration, you see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Creatures and objects there appear ghostly." Why would they bother with that "as if they were visible" clause when, as you argue, Invisible creatures/objects are actually visible? Why would Truesight have the line "Invisibility. You see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition." if anyone could already see them?
Is that the intended behavior? Unlikely. However, you don't really get to pick and choose which rules you are taking literally.
That is not compelling at all. If "Concealed" were a glossary entry, then it would add up. The condition is saying you are concealed, then adding mechanics on top of it.
...which only makes sense if you buy that "concealed" is a technical term, defined to not mean "concealed" anymore. This house of cards is not well built.
Except, it doesn't "make sense" even with that part, because it would mean the Invisible Condition is entirely self-defeating (from hiding, the spell, whatever), and would mean that any use of the word "conceal" in the books is effectively powerless. Which is a fine argument if your case is actually "hey, the editors should have thought more about rules lawyers!" But it's a terrible, bad-faith argument for actual rules-lawyering, because it's essentially cutting off one's nose to spite the face.
You literally do because the #1 rule in D&D 5e is that if a rule is getting in the way of fun at the table, it is the job of the DM to change it.
And instead we are supposed to infer that rolling a 15 on Stealth should function exactly the same as a Legendary magic item, and render all enemies objectively incapable of perceiving you? Despite text clearly stating that concealment doesn’t work if you can be perceived being an explicit part of the same passage you are insisting makes Stealth rolls into a magic power?
The obvious answer to your question regarding the Invisibility spell is that any DM with half an ounce of common sense will adjudicate the conditions by which a creature can “somehow” see the subject of an Invisibility spell are different from the ones to see a creature that was skulking in shadows or behind thick foliage.
Which raises the most relevant point- that “somehow” is undefined, and thus it defaults to the DM to determine the parameters in a given instance. The Hide Action and Invisible condition are not clubs that can be used to beat a DM over the head with- the implementation and results are up to the DM. Technically they can rule they’re running stealth Skyrim style, but I expect most DMs will realize that’s a bad idea after a few encounters with a Rogue spending 90% of the time Invisible.
Rule 0 is not a productive point to raise in a discussion of RAW, because it renders any discussion on the topic moot when invoked. That’s not to say it should not be used in play, but it’s outside the useful scope of a debate regarding RAW.
Yeah, but that just means you ignore all of the stealth and vision rules because they're nonsense.
Yes. Absolutely. That is 100% true. Just like the Poisoned condition doesn't make you poisoned. You get the Poisoned condition because you have been poisoned.
The Invisibility spell makes you invisible. The mechanical effects are described by the Invisible condition.
Hiding doesn't make you literally invisible, but it does render you unseen. Its mechanical effects are also described by the invisible condition.
The primary way they mechanically differ is by how they determine that the condition ends. Invisibility has fairly simple and well-defined termination conditions. Hiding doesn't. All the rules arguments about hiding ought to be about the termination conditions, and talking about how the Invisible condition makes you invisible just confuses the issue.
The Invisibility spell: "A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell."
It does the exact same thing Hide does: it gives you the Invisible condition. If you believe that Invisibility makes you unseen, then you believe Hide makes you unseen. If you believe the Invisible condition doesn't make you unseen, then neither Invisibility nor Hide makes you unseen.
The ending conditions for Invisibility and Hide are both explicitly listed. There is nothing vague about either one.
The Invisibility spell has a duration of 1 hour.
The explicit ending conditions for the Invisibility spell that people are referring to are these: "The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell."
So, 6 hours later this target creature is still invisible? Why not? The duration expiring isn't listed as one of your ending conditions.
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
Hiding is a little different, but not much. It doesn't have an exact predetermined duration like the Invisibility spell. Instead, hiding is an ongoing activity which lasts for as long as you continue to successfully Hide.
The explicit ending conditions for the Hide action that people are referring to are these: "You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
So, 6 hours later while (quietly) wandering around town out in the open among dozens of enemies this creature is still hiding? Why not? Being seen isn't listed as one of your ending conditions (sort of).
No. Of course not. That situation is covered elsewhere. It is specified within the statement that gives the Invisible condition:
The issue here is what you quoted is not in the print version of the book. It is now in the online version of the book. The print version lacks the "while hidden" statement
The "while Hidden" phrase isn't relevant to the discussion since no one is arguing that you maintain Invisible once you're no longer Hidden.
The online version includes recent errata that appear in more recent printing per Changelog - - D&D Beyond so future PHB will include while hidden text.
It will. But in my experience with talking to people online it will seldom matter. Most people don’t look at the errata or the online versions or the reprinted book.
So I would expect this topic is going to keep coming up because the original print run excluded the information.
It doesn't matter significantly. The errata does not actually change anything in this topic. The big argument (well, one of several, but probably the core interesting one) is about whether or not leaving cover/obscurement causes the character to no longer be hidden. The rules give a pretty explicit list of what ends the hidden condition (getting found, making too much noise, attacking, casting a verbal spell), and it noteably does not include leaving cover.
This is, conceptually, an argument over whether or not Hide is viable combat or sneaking-around tactic, vs it only really being for staying behind cover.
Out of curiosity ... what does "while hidden" even mean in the 2024 rules?
The hide action grants the invisible condition when successful.
The requirement to make the hide action include:
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
You stop being hidden by "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component". Note that the conditions required to TAKE the hide action are no longer required to maintain being hidden since they are not listed in the ways a creature can stop being hidden.
This list does not include walking in front of other creatures while you have the invisible condition due to the successful hide action for example.
However, what does "a creature finds you" mean? Does this specifically refer to successful use of a Search action? If you haven't seen the invisible (due to hiding) but standing in front of you creature - would you have any reason to make a search action?
Can a creature be seen when they are invisible? Both hiding and the invisibility spell use exactly the same condition - either a creature under the invisible condition is visible or they are not since there is only one condition. The condition itself does not say.
"While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature."
The invisible condition indicates that a creature is concealed and that you aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen "unless the effect's creator can somehow see you". However, the invisible condition does not define what is required to see an invisible creature. Presumably See Invisible, Truesight and Blindsight would all work. Can a creature without those see a creature who is invisible due the hide action? The rules of the invisible condition would seem to imply no if the same condition is used for both the invisibility spell and hiding.
Next - can the DM just decide when a creature is no longer hidden? Short answer is yes but you have to go all the way back to it being the DMs game and the fact that they can run it however they want to justify it.
Under the rules for hiding:
"Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action."
The DM gets to choose if it is appropriate for hiding and when a creature can make the hide action. It doesn't explicitly state that a DM decides if conditions are no longer appropriate for being hidden because the rules explicitly define all the ways being hidden is lost .. and the DM deciding for an arbitrary reason or because that is how they run their game is simply implicit not explicit.
Basically, by trying to simplify the rules on hiding and using the invisible condition for both, the designers have created a set of rules where the hide action becomes almost identical to the invisibility spell with the only difference being the requirement not to make a sound greater than a whisper which is effectively just the initial stealth check required to hide in the first place.
The rules don't state how long the "hidden" state lasts. Time and local environment are not listed as ways to become unhidden. So the one stealth roll could conceivably be interpreted to last the entire day - at least based on RAW.
Personally, I don't run it this way. However, I know folks who adhere very closely to RAW and DO run it this way. This can cause table arguments, disagreement on how a creature can hide - whether a player or an NPC - whether they are unseen when they become invisible due to hiding or the spell or some other mechanism. It also causes a bit of cognitive dissonance as players encounter in game behaviors supported by the rules that don't match with how a player expects these effects to work. (i.e invisible means that a creature is unseen - hidden just means that a creature is un-noticed .. but could be seen if someone has any reason to look. Unfortunately, this isn't what the rules state as far as I can tell - I'd be very happy to be corrected if I have missed some element of the rules that allows this to function as one might expect hiding to work in the real world).
This is essentially the "duration" of the Hide action, which is variable.
In this context, "while hidden" means "while you continue to hide". In other words, hiding is an ongoing activity, and the value of your Stealth roll persists as time marches forward. You save the value of that Stealth roll to be used as a DC for some potential future dice check, but only if you remain hidden until then. Meaning, the value of your Stealth roll remains valid and in effect while you remain hidden. If at some point along the way you stop being stealthy but then you decide that you want to be stealthy again, then you would need to make a new roll for a new Stealth value. Your previous Stealth check's value has expired / is no longer valid because you stopped hiding at some point. The stealth check's value and the associated benefits only apply "while hidden", not when you are not hidden.
While this statement is true, it is incomplete and misses critical information.
The main thing that a successful Hide action actually does is that it causes you to be "concealed" / "hidden" (The word "hidden" is used as a synonym for "concealed" within this text):
(Also -- Important Note -- in this context we are talking about the common English language version of the word "concealed" as used within the text of the Hide action, NOT the feature label that is used within the body of the Invisible condition.)
The reason why this is important is because in the 2024 ruleset, just like in the 2014 ruleset, the entirety of the rules and mechanics that are related to the concept of hiding are not all contained in one place. The text for the Hide action is a good place to start, but it doesn't contain all of the information.
For example, once it is confirmed that you are successfully "hidden", then the associated rules and mechanics that are listed within the Unseen Attackers and Targets section now apply to you as well as what is listed in the Hide action. The text for the Invisible condition has some overlap with the rules that are listed in the Unseen Attackers and Targets section, but it's not identical. There is text within the Invisible condition that does not appear in the section on Unseen Attackers and Targets. Likewise, there is also text within the section on Unseen Attackers and Targets that does not appear within the Invisible condition:
Invisible:
Unseen Attackers and Targets:
When you successfully Hide, ALL of this applies. Taken together, it becomes clear that hiding does not just confirm that you are unseen (you have the Invisible condition) but you also can no longer be heard (an additional benefit that is not discussed within the Invisible condition and not explicitly mentioned within the text for the Hide action except for the fact that the Hide action confirms that you are successfully "concealed" / "hidden" and therefore everything that applies to that concept is in effect)
It doesn't matter that that list does not include walking in front of other creatures. That situation is covered elsewhere.
In addition, when carefully reading that section of text it becomes clear that that list is not an exhaustive list. It's simply a list of some of the things that definitely cause you to immediately stop being hidden. Any others would generally be situational corner cases that are ruled on by the DM on a case-by-case basis (Is the situation "appropriate for hiding" according to the DM?).
The situation of walking in front of other creatures is covered by the phrase "while hidden". While you are hidden, there are some things that will definitely cause you to immediately stop being hidden. But also realize that you only have the benefits of hiding "while hidden". If you are not hiding then you do not have those benefits, by explicit rule. This is the clarification that was added by the recent errata.
It would sort of be better if this discussion had its own thread because it somewhat confuses the issue for this discussion. It's true that according to the current 2024 text a creature with the Invisible condition can be seen. However, for the purposes of the hiding and stealth discussion, I think that it would be better if we all operated under the assumption that this will be fixed at some point via errata and we should all work under the assumption that a creature with the Invisible condition cannot be seen for the purposes of discussing how Stealth functions in this ruleset.
No, this rule applies at all times. Hiding is an ongoing activity. It doesn't matter if you have not started hiding yet or if you are already hiding -- if the DM decides that circumstances are not appropriate for hiding at a particular time then you simply cannot hide at that time. If you cannot hide, then you cannot begin hiding and you also cannot continue hiding -- because you cannot hide.
Sort of. It's true that a stealth roll could remain valid for an entire day . . . as long as you remain hidden during that time. The "duration" of having the benefits of hiding is "while hidden", which is variable in terms of its length of time, but it's clear that such benefits expire when you are no longer hiding.
"To do so" refers to "you try". Therefore, the conditions mentioned next apply to the attempt at hiding, not the ongoing activity of the "hidden" state.