I know, I know... This has been discussed a thousand times already, but I need some precision.
My understanding of perceiving an invisible creature is that you can't see them, but you can at least estimate their location, allowing you to at least target them with an attack, albeit with disadvantage.
But the thing is, I can't find the rule that says that. I know that an invisible creature can still be perceived without a perception check (assuming they're not hiding), and that it's actually important for balance (otherwise Greater Invisibility would be absurdly OP), but I can't pinpoint a specific rule that makes it clear.
You can extrapolate a lot from what the rules DON'T say, but where really does it say that a creature can estimate the location of an invisible one based on their hearing? And what if the target hasn't moved last turn? What if I open a door and an invisible creature is standing right in front of me?
Perception is a skill that allows you to perceive a target using a variety of senses, but that would suggest you need to roll perception to estimate an invisible creature's location anyway...
You won't find anywhere (in 2024) that that is specifically said, but you nailed it in one: you extrapolate from what the rules don't say. Rather, if a specific rule doesn't say something, then it doesn't do that thing. The Invisible condition doesn't say you can't be perceived - without taking the Hide action, anyway - so that doesn't happen. If it was intended to happen, it would say it.
(Note: 2014 Invisible did say "the creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.")
My understanding of perceiving an invisible creature is that you can't see them, but you can at least estimate their location, allowing you to at least target them with an attack, albeit with disadvantage.
Look for the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1.
You won't find anywhere (in 2024) that that is specifically said, but you nailed it in one: you extrapolate from what the rules don't say. Rather, if a specific rule doesn't say something, then it doesn't do that thing. The Invisible condition doesn't say you can't be perceived - without taking the Hide action, anyway - so that doesn't happen. If it was intended to happen, it would say it.
(Note: 2014 Invisible did say "the creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.")
That sucks. Now there's a void in the rules and filling it is left to the DM's interpretation. My problem with "the rules don't say that..." is that it can be justified to claim pretty much anything. "The rules don't say that pushing must be horizontal, so I'm combining all these feats with my barbarian's attack to golf swing the target 30ft into the air, and they take 3d6 fall damage when they land." Or "The rules don't say I can't choose where to land my unarmed attack, so I'm gonna kick him in the nuts."
"The rules don't say I can't choose where to land my unarmed attack, so I'm gonna kick him in the nuts."
DM - "Your kick is truly aimed and flies straight at his nuts, only to find that he has a steel codpiece hidden under his clothing. Roll a constitution saving throw to see if you break your foot."
It specifically states "This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see."
Hope this helps :)
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
This argument/discussion crops up every now and then, but the answer's always going to be the same. The rules simply can't account for everything you can't do; if they tried, the PHB and DMG would need to be a thousand times longer than they are. In video game design, it takes far more work to design what players can't do than what they can, and creating such video game requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lines of code.
That is, ultimately, why this game requires a DM; a referee of sorts to decide on rulings in the moment. But it's also why the game is written to tell you (most of the time) what your character is able to do, and how things work. If the rules don't explicitly state you can do something or that a rule works a certain way, then that's that.
Invisible is a condition - comparable to a status effect in a video game - and it does what it says it does and no more. If it was intended that you couldn't tell where a creature is when they are Invisible but not Hidden, then the condition would say as much. The Poisoned condition doesn't say you vomit, or have difficulty breathing, or any of the other real life symptoms of being poisoned, so it doesn't cause those things despite the rules not specifically spelling out that those things don't happen.
I'm not trying to browbeat you here, but if you come at the rules of D&D with an idea of "they should specifically say absolutely everything that can and can't happen," you're simply going to give yourself a headache.
[...] My understanding of perceiving an invisible creature is that you can't see them, but you can at least estimate their location, allowing you to at least target them with an attack, albeit with disadvantage. [...]
This is a good summary, so you need to explicitly take the Hide action to make your location unknown.
Ruling this way is doing it pretty much the same as with the 2014 rules.
So if you're walking into a room where some enemy is standing invisible, you probably have no chance whatsoever to perceive it. You don't even have the opportunity to guess at its location because you have no reason to suspect its presence.
On the other hand, let's say a Sorcerer Fire Bolts you and then casts Invisibility on themselves. You know that the Sorcerer is somewhere in the room. You can probably make a decent guess at where given what you know about how quickly that Sorcerer can move. However, you're still guessing at the location and if you guess wrong, you'll automatically miss.
Perception generally won't play any role with magical Invisibility. It can play a role with Stealth if you're actively searching for someone who is Hiding.
In terms of 'overpowered', you can beat that Invisible attacker with Blindsight, True Sight, See Invisible, spells like Faerie Fire or simply Ready'ing an Action to attack when they do (as well as a number of other options).
I rule that creature you can't see, wether due to being Blinded , Invisible or Heavily Obscured generally location is known unless it specifically Hide.
I rule that creature you can't see, wether due to being Blinded , Invisible or Heavily Obscured generally location is known unless it specifically Hide.
So when the party enters the dungeon, you hand out a complete map with the location of the enemies clearly marked?
LOL there are many other things to take into account:
- Closed doors make it harder to hear behind. - You can only perceive enemies up to a certain distance. - Without sight, you only know the approximate location of a creature, nothing else, not even what creature it is.
So if you're walking into a room where some enemy is standing invisible, you probably have no chance whatsoever to perceive it. You don't even have the opportunity to guess at its location because you have no reason to suspect its presence. [...] Perception generally won't play any role with magical Invisibility. It can play a role with Stealth if you're actively searching for someone who is Hiding. [...]
Perception doesn't rely solely on sight.
Even if you can't be seen, you can still be heard and your location can be guessed from your footsteps, breathing, the rustle of clothing, the clank of armor and weapons, etc.
Even if you can't be seen, you can still be heard and your location can be guessed from your footsteps, breathing, the rustle of clothing, the clank of armor and weapons, etc.
Small nitpick, but I wouldn't even use the phrase "your location can be guessed" in the above statement since that might be confused with the concept of "guessing the square". Instead, your location is "known" so you can be targeted, but attacks against you have disadvantage.
So if you're walking into a room where some enemy is standing invisible, you probably have no chance whatsoever to perceive it. You don't even have the opportunity to guess at its location because you have no reason to suspect its presence.
In such a situation, unless that invisible enemy is hiding (currently making an effort to remain quiet) then you automatically detect its location with your hearing. You know where it is and you can target it, although attacks against it will be at disadvantage.
Perception is a skill that allows you to perceive a target using a variety of senses, but that would suggest you need to roll perception to estimate an invisible creature's location anyway...
Remember, the Perception skill only applies to situations where you attempt to "notice something that’s easy to miss". This dovetails with the concept that you only roll an ability check when there is a chance for success and a chance for failure. Similarly, the description for the Search action states that a Search action that uses the Perception skill is used to detect a "concealed creature or object" in situations where you are trying "to discern something that isn’t obvious".
By default, seeing a creature or hearing a creature is considered to be obvious with no chance of failure, so making a Perception check to try to hear a nearby creature that is not attempting to be quiet is unnecessary. It's not a perfectly real-world-like model -- it's a simplification.
Consider a similar conundrum of adjudicating visibility of a creature that is standing in Dim Light. Dim Light is classified as a Lightly Obscured area. The rules for Lightly Obscured areas state that "you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight." However, this does not necessarily mean that you have to make a Perception check to attempt to see a creature that is standing in Dim Light directly in front of you. You can just automatically see such a creature. It's only if and when there happens to be a situation that actually requires a Perception check that this rule for Perception checks in such areas comes into play.
Following this a step further, we can look at what happens when a creature is standing in front of us but is located in total Darkness. In this case, by rule, we have the Blinded condition when trying to see that creature. That condition causes us to not be able to see and we auto-fail sight-based Perception checks, BUT we can attack with Disadvantage. That's because the default assumption is that we still know the enemy location via other means, such as via our hearing. The same situation occurs when an Invisible creature stands in front of us. In both cases, in order for us to not be able to detect that creature's location, that creature would have to go through the trouble to Hide (successfully) so that he can remain quiet enough to be undetectable unless and until another creature successfully passes a hearing-based Perception check to detect the very small "easy to miss" / "not obvious" noise that the hidden creature is still making.
Even if you can't be seen, you can still be heard and your location can be guessed from your footsteps, breathing, the rustle of clothing, the clank of armor and weapons, etc.
Small nitpick, but I wouldn't even use the phrase "your location can be guessed" in the above statement since that might be confused with the concept of "guessing the square". Instead, your location is "known" so you can be targeted, but attacks against you have disadvantage. [...]
The DMG has rules on hearing range (Chapter 2: Exploration). Unless an enemy is intentionally making significant noise, you effectively have to be in/near melee range to hear them. You most certainly do not automatically hear an enemy who is not making any significant noise. No Perception check can overcome a lack of ability to sense a target in the first place (such as the target being undetectable by normal vision or out of range of your hearing). Note that this is unrelated to Stealth, which has its own mechanics.
Hearing them does not allow you to pinpoint their location. You still have to guess at where they are. If you want to pinpoint their location via hearing, you need an ability like Tremorsense.
If you correctly guess where an Invisible enemy is, you can attack them at Disadvantage. You cannot target them with most spells that do not require an attack roll regardless if you guess where they are.
I rule that creature you can't see, wether due to being Blinded , Invisible or Heavily Obscured generally location is known unless it specifically Hide.
So when the party enters the dungeon, you hand out a complete map with the location of the enemies clearly marked?
No, i only do so when the party enter an area in which creatures are close enought to be perceived somehow.
The DMG has rules on hearing range (Chapter 2: Exploration). Unless an enemy is intentionally making significant noise, you effectively have to be in/near melee range to hear them.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The DMG has rules on hearing range (Chapter 2: Exploration). Unless an enemy is intentionally making significant noise, you effectively have to be in/near melee range to hear them.
The table you're linking simply verifies what I said: you need to be in/near melee range to hear someone not making significant noise. The 50 + 2d6 is the "very loud" row.
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I know, I know... This has been discussed a thousand times already, but I need some precision.
My understanding of perceiving an invisible creature is that you can't see them, but you can at least estimate their location, allowing you to at least target them with an attack, albeit with disadvantage.
But the thing is, I can't find the rule that says that. I know that an invisible creature can still be perceived without a perception check (assuming they're not hiding), and that it's actually important for balance (otherwise Greater Invisibility would be absurdly OP), but I can't pinpoint a specific rule that makes it clear.
You can extrapolate a lot from what the rules DON'T say, but where really does it say that a creature can estimate the location of an invisible one based on their hearing? And what if the target hasn't moved last turn? What if I open a door and an invisible creature is standing right in front of me?
Perception is a skill that allows you to perceive a target using a variety of senses, but that would suggest you need to roll perception to estimate an invisible creature's location anyway...
You won't find anywhere (in 2024) that that is specifically said, but you nailed it in one: you extrapolate from what the rules don't say. Rather, if a specific rule doesn't say something, then it doesn't do that thing. The Invisible condition doesn't say you can't be perceived - without taking the Hide action, anyway - so that doesn't happen. If it was intended to happen, it would say it.
(Note: 2014 Invisible did say "the creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.")
Look for the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1.
Yeah that rule covers the disadvantage part, but not the perception part of it.
That sucks. Now there's a void in the rules and filling it is left to the DM's interpretation.
My problem with "the rules don't say that..." is that it can be justified to claim pretty much anything.
"The rules don't say that pushing must be horizontal, so I'm combining all these feats with my barbarian's attack to golf swing the target 30ft into the air, and they take 3d6 fall damage when they land."
Or
"The rules don't say I can't choose where to land my unarmed attack, so I'm gonna kick him in the nuts."
DM - "Your kick is truly aimed and flies straight at his nuts, only to find that he has a steel codpiece hidden under his clothing. Roll a constitution saving throw to see if you break your foot."
Greetings Natrel,
As Kenclary stated, here is the location in the 5e.24 PHB that states that you have disadvantage on attacks against creatures you cannot see (the orange box under the Cover section):
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/playing-the-game#Cover
It specifically states "This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see."
Hope this helps :)
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
This argument/discussion crops up every now and then, but the answer's always going to be the same. The rules simply can't account for everything you can't do; if they tried, the PHB and DMG would need to be a thousand times longer than they are. In video game design, it takes far more work to design what players can't do than what they can, and creating such video game requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lines of code.
That is, ultimately, why this game requires a DM; a referee of sorts to decide on rulings in the moment. But it's also why the game is written to tell you (most of the time) what your character is able to do, and how things work. If the rules don't explicitly state you can do something or that a rule works a certain way, then that's that.
Invisible is a condition - comparable to a status effect in a video game - and it does what it says it does and no more. If it was intended that you couldn't tell where a creature is when they are Invisible but not Hidden, then the condition would say as much.
The Poisoned condition doesn't say you vomit, or have difficulty breathing, or any of the other real life symptoms of being poisoned, so it doesn't cause those things despite the rules not specifically spelling out that those things don't happen.
I'm not trying to browbeat you here, but if you come at the rules of D&D with an idea of "they should specifically say absolutely everything that can and can't happen," you're simply going to give yourself a headache.
This is a good summary, so you need to explicitly take the Hide action to make your location unknown.
Ruling this way is doing it pretty much the same as with the 2014 rules.
An Invisible creature cannot be seen.
So if you're walking into a room where some enemy is standing invisible, you probably have no chance whatsoever to perceive it. You don't even have the opportunity to guess at its location because you have no reason to suspect its presence.
On the other hand, let's say a Sorcerer Fire Bolts you and then casts Invisibility on themselves. You know that the Sorcerer is somewhere in the room. You can probably make a decent guess at where given what you know about how quickly that Sorcerer can move. However, you're still guessing at the location and if you guess wrong, you'll automatically miss.
Perception generally won't play any role with magical Invisibility. It can play a role with Stealth if you're actively searching for someone who is Hiding.
In terms of 'overpowered', you can beat that Invisible attacker with Blindsight, True Sight, See Invisible, spells like Faerie Fire or simply Ready'ing an Action to attack when they do (as well as a number of other options).
I rule that creature you can't see, wether due to being Blinded , Invisible or Heavily Obscured generally location is known unless it specifically Hide.
So when the party enters the dungeon, you hand out a complete map with the location of the enemies clearly marked?
LOL there are many other things to take into account:
- Closed doors make it harder to hear behind.
- You can only perceive enemies up to a certain distance.
- Without sight, you only know the approximate location of a creature, nothing else, not even what creature it is.
You can gauge the intended power level of invisibility by looking at how it seems to function in monster math. Consider two very similar monsters:
Without invisibility, the invisible stalker might only be CR 5, so being permanently invisible is worth... 1 CR?
Pretty clear you're not supposed to be guessing about its location most of the time.
Perception doesn't rely solely on sight.
Even if you can't be seen, you can still be heard and your location can be guessed from your footsteps, breathing, the rustle of clothing, the clank of armor and weapons, etc.
Small nitpick, but I wouldn't even use the phrase "your location can be guessed" in the above statement since that might be confused with the concept of "guessing the square". Instead, your location is "known" so you can be targeted, but attacks against you have disadvantage.
In such a situation, unless that invisible enemy is hiding (currently making an effort to remain quiet) then you automatically detect its location with your hearing. You know where it is and you can target it, although attacks against it will be at disadvantage.
Remember, the Perception skill only applies to situations where you attempt to "notice something that’s easy to miss". This dovetails with the concept that you only roll an ability check when there is a chance for success and a chance for failure. Similarly, the description for the Search action states that a Search action that uses the Perception skill is used to detect a "concealed creature or object" in situations where you are trying "to discern something that isn’t obvious".
By default, seeing a creature or hearing a creature is considered to be obvious with no chance of failure, so making a Perception check to try to hear a nearby creature that is not attempting to be quiet is unnecessary. It's not a perfectly real-world-like model -- it's a simplification.
Consider a similar conundrum of adjudicating visibility of a creature that is standing in Dim Light. Dim Light is classified as a Lightly Obscured area. The rules for Lightly Obscured areas state that "you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight." However, this does not necessarily mean that you have to make a Perception check to attempt to see a creature that is standing in Dim Light directly in front of you. You can just automatically see such a creature. It's only if and when there happens to be a situation that actually requires a Perception check that this rule for Perception checks in such areas comes into play.
Following this a step further, we can look at what happens when a creature is standing in front of us but is located in total Darkness. In this case, by rule, we have the Blinded condition when trying to see that creature. That condition causes us to not be able to see and we auto-fail sight-based Perception checks, BUT we can attack with Disadvantage. That's because the default assumption is that we still know the enemy location via other means, such as via our hearing. The same situation occurs when an Invisible creature stands in front of us. In both cases, in order for us to not be able to detect that creature's location, that creature would have to go through the trouble to Hide (successfully) so that he can remain quiet enough to be undetectable unless and until another creature successfully passes a hearing-based Perception check to detect the very small "easy to miss" / "not obvious" noise that the hidden creature is still making.
Yeah, I meant that, thanks!
The DMG has rules on hearing range (Chapter 2: Exploration). Unless an enemy is intentionally making significant noise, you effectively have to be in/near melee range to hear them. You most certainly do not automatically hear an enemy who is not making any significant noise. No Perception check can overcome a lack of ability to sense a target in the first place (such as the target being undetectable by normal vision or out of range of your hearing). Note that this is unrelated to Stealth, which has its own mechanics.
Hearing them does not allow you to pinpoint their location. You still have to guess at where they are. If you want to pinpoint their location via hearing, you need an ability like Tremorsense.
If you correctly guess where an Invisible enemy is, you can attack them at Disadvantage. You cannot target them with most spells that do not require an attack roll regardless if you guess where they are.
No, i only do so when the party enter an area in which creatures are close enought to be perceived somehow.
This is incorrect in the 2024 rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The table you're linking simply verifies what I said: you need to be in/near melee range to hear someone not making significant noise. The 50 + 2d6 is the "very loud" row.