We are experiencing issues with a service provider which may cause unexpected behavior. Thank you for your patience while we work to resolve these issues.
Multiclassing comes with its own set of rules regarding Spellcasting though, which Shapechange fail to address, things such as spell slots etc..
Shapechange does not fail to address them, creatures simply don't use spell slots, thus when you cast a spell from the creature's stat block, it does not use spell slots but if you used your own spellcasting feature while in shape change, that does use spell slots.
Concentration is also easily resolved, if you attempted to cast a spell that needs concentration then shapechange itself would end and so realistically the list of usable spells is slightly reduced. If you changed into a Dryad as an earlier example, you can not cast pass without trace or Entangle since they are both concentration spells and Shapechange is a concentration spell.
@R3sistance The Shapechange spell doesn't address what happen if the monster has Spellcasting, only saying you retain yours. But statistics you retained shouldn't be duplicated but have only one INT, WIS, CHA for example.
But i think i remember why i originally answer in another thread that they would both work, Monster Spellcasting isn't a feature or trait anymore as Thezzaruz said, its an Action.
Going back full circle to my original position i think you'd get both ;)
Multiclassing comes with its own set of rules regarding Spellcasting though, which Shapechange fail to address, things such as spell slots etc..
Shapechange does not fail to address them, creatures simply don't use spell slots, thus when you cast a spell from the creature's stat block, it does not use spell slots but if you used your own spellcasting feature while in shape change, that does use spell slots.
That's why, IMO, if you use Counterspell successfully against a monster, the spell cast by that monster is lost and the number of uses isn't recovered.
Limited Usage
Some parts of a stat block have restrictions on the number of times they can be used. Here are the most common ways that usage is limited:
X/Day. This notation means the stat block part can be used a certain number of times (represented by X) and that a monster must finish a Long Rest to regain expended uses. For example, a Reaction that includes “1/Day” means the Reaction can be taken once and that the monster must finish a Long Rest to take it again.
Concentration is also easily resolved, if you attempted to cast a spell that needs concentration then shapechange itself would end and so realistically the list of usable spells is slightly reduced. If you changed into a Dryad as an earlier example, you can not cast pass without trace or Entangle since they are both concentration spells and Shapechange is a concentration spell.
I think that's not right, because Spellcasting, for monsters, isn't a feature or a trait. It's just an action they can take.
In fact, when I said "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting feature", that's technically not true. It should be "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting action" (all their actions from the stat block, really)
I shared the evolution of Spellcasting for the new monsters a while ago:
Since 2014, spellcasting creatures have tended to have the Spellcasting trait, the Innate Spellcasting Trait, or both. Starting in 2021, we have merged those two traits into an action called Spellcasting. That action now appears in the “Actions” section of a stat block, and it has a few important qualities:
The Spellcasting action doesn’t use spell slots. A creature can cast the action’s spells a certain number of times per day.
The only spells that appear in the Spellcasting action are ones that take an action to cast. If a spell requires a bonus action, a reaction, or a minute or more to cast, that spell must appear elsewhere in the stat block. This change ensures that bonus actions and reactions—such as misty step and shield—aren’t hiding out in a list of spells.
We’re more selective about which spells appear in a stat block, focusing on spells that have noncombat utility. A magic-using monster’s most potent firepower is now usually represented by a special magical action, rather than relying on spells.
this argument depends on what the definition for a "feature" is, a word which has not been explicitly defined anywhere despite being mentioned constantly - presumably becuase it is almost always used to disambiguate.
In relation to monster rules, we have the following definition for traits:
The monster’s traits, if any, are features that are active at all times or in certain situations.
now this does spell out that traits are features, but it does not completely exclude the idea that a monster's other properties like swim speed or special actions aren't also features that just happen to not have an active / inactive state the way traits do. Wording found within the phb glossary for actions could be used to imply that anything that any action you can take not listed there is a thing given to you by a feature, although that feels like a dubious interpretation.
Elsewhere in the rules, 'feature' just seems to mean any rules text that is specific to this one guy / this one object, or perhaps as "any bit of rules text with a name". In an much cited sage advice answer, JC seems to imply that a dragon's breath weapon is categorized as a 'game feature' since you would follow the same steps for determining if it is magical as you would any other 'game feature', thus meaning that particular action in it's stat block is at the very least an action. The "combining different effects" rules text from the original DMG also used the wording of 'game features'.
(is a "game feature" even the same thing as a "feature"? I sure hope so becuase arguing or thinking about any of this sounds like hell, not to mention miserable)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
speaking of unopened cans of worms, using specifically the example of an Adult Brass Dragon shapeshifting into a mage: the mage statblock has the misty step bonus action and the protective magic reaction. Both give it access to spells not listed in the Spellcasting feature / action, using the same spellcasting ability as it's Spellcasting feature / action. If we are to believe the ruling that the dragon's Spellcasting action replaces the Mage's Spellcasting action, does this also mean that it casts misty step and counterspell using charisma as it's spellcasting ability, and using the DC found in it's dragon stat block?
speaking of unopened cans of worms, using specifically the example of an Adult Brass Dragon shapeshifting into a mage: the mage statblock has the misty step bonus action and the protective magic reaction. Both give it access to spells not listed in the Spellcasting feature / action, using the same spellcasting ability as it's Spellcasting feature / action. If we are to believe the ruling that the dragon's Spellcasting action replaces the Mage's Spellcasting action, does this also mean that it casts misty step and counterspell using charisma as it's spellcasting ability, and using the DC found in it's dragon stat block?
similarly, what about the priest stat block or any number of similar stat blocks that all feature the Divine Aid bonus action and refer back to a creature's Spellcasting. These too give out special spells (sometimes good ones even) that are not part of the spellcasting trait.
Like on the one hand, saying "same ability as Spellcasting" rather than simply spelling out which ability score you refer to would arguably not make sense unless there was some type of way for a version of the same stat block to exist with a different spellcasting trait. On the other, it would seem baffling to have an interpretation of the rules where in effect shapechange only ever gives you access to the spells in a stat block that specifically don't take an action to cast as well as spells that were named something different for flavour / callback reasons (ie succubus and it's 'charm' action). Would also imply that the spell works inherrently different for creatures that managed to cast the spell via a magic item or some other feature without having the spellcasting trait, and that the moment they gain even a single level in a spellcasting class, the way this spell works for them inherrently changes.
oh god and for that matter, one of the statistics shapechange does not seem to call out as being kept is your proficiency bonus. Meaning that even as you retain your int / wis / cha, spellcasting and proficiencies while shapeshifted, you might still end up having a worse spell save dc while shapechanged and lower skill bonuses in skills you are proficient in. Which really is unfortunate.
The Adult Brass Dragon and the mage do not possess "the" Spellcasting feature. "The" Spellcasting feature is referring to the feature which allows spellcasters to cast spells with the spell slot mechanic such as the ones that are found within the Class descriptions for the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer and so on.
These monsters do not use spell slots. Instead, they take an action that is labeled with the word "spellcasting". Labels like this can be anything -- they have no mechanical meaning.
When the Adult Brass Dragon shape-shifts into a mage, it's stat block is replaced. It can no longer cast Scorching Ray, for example. When it does cast a spell with the mage's Spellcasting action (the newly acquired Fireball spell, for example), the spell save DC would have to be recalculated. As per the mage's action, it would be using Intelligence instead of Charisma. But it would use the Adult Brass Dragon's (retained) Intelligence and the mage's proficiency bonus:
The Adult Brass Dragon and the mage do not possess "the" Spellcasting feature. "The" Spellcasting feature is referring to the feature which allows spellcasters to cast spells with the spell slot mechanic such as the ones that are found within the Class descriptions for the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer and so on.
These monsters do not use spell slots. Instead, they take an action that is labeled with the word "spellcasting". Labels like this can be anything -- they have no mechanical meaning.
When the Adult Brass Dragon shape-shifts into a mage, it's stat block is replaced. It can no longer cast Scorching Ray, for example. When it does cast a spell with the mage's Spellcasting action (the newly acquired Fireball spell, for example), the spell save DC would have to be recalculated. As per the mage's action, it would be using Intelligence instead of Charisma. But it would use the Adult Brass Dragon's (retained) Intelligence and the mage's proficiency bonus:
DC = 8 + 2 + 3 = 13.
on the one hand, this is a very convenient ruling that sidesteps a lot of emergent weirdness with other rulings like "what about xyz monster action that allows them to cast spells but isin't called spellcasting" and "do i accumulate features named Spellcasting between transformations?"
on the other hand, this ruling is entirely dependent on either:
pedantry about what is and is not considered a "feature", an entirely undefined term within the game rules and a very big can of worms to be opening. There is for instance some precedent for actions in stat blocks being called 'game features', and the word 'feature' is kind of used all over the place in the rules and it's a mess with essentially infinite ambiguity. Point being that it's a horrible no good miserable conversation to be having.
the game designers betting on the reader understanding what feature named Spellcasting is supposed to be "the" spellcasting feature, especially when under this ruling there are actiually eight different features named spellcasting (one for each non-pact magic spellcasting class plus arcane trickster and eldrich knight), each working slightly differently from the others, and that all eight of them are "the" spellcasting feature while another set of npc-exclusive features named Spellcasting are not "the" spellcasting feature
meaning that the argument is resting on very shaky ground indeed
(also such a ruling may cause some weirdness with "huh, how come this spellcaster cannot cast their known spells while using this spell but i can?" but at the moment the only npc spellcasters that can cast shapechange are ones where the spell is replacing an innate ability built-in to their stat block so who cares)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think that's not right, because Spellcasting, for monsters, isn't a feature or a trait. It's just an action they can take.
In fact, when I said "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting feature", that's technically not true. It should be "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting action" (all their actions from the stat block, really)
I shared the evolution of Spellcasting for the new monsters a while ago: [...]
this argument depends on what the definition for a "feature" is, a word which has not been explicitly defined anywhere despite being mentioned constantly - presumably becuase it is almost always used to disambiguate.
IMO, "your Spellcasting feature" in this case clearly means the one for spellcaster player characters. For monsters it's an Action (link to the MM), as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, if we're talking about "game feature" in general, yeah, it can include species traits, class features, feats, abilities, spells, special actions, etc. And as you mentioned, "game feature" is also used in the SAC to explain things.
I think that's not right, because Spellcasting, for monsters, isn't a feature or a trait. It's just an action they can take.
In fact, when I said "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting feature", that's technically not true. It should be "You retain your Spellcasting feature while also gaining the monster's Spellcasting action" (all their actions from the stat block, really)
I shared the evolution of Spellcasting for the new monsters a while ago: [...]
this argument depends on what the definition for a "feature" is, a word which has not been explicitly defined anywhere despite being mentioned constantly - presumably becuase it is almost always used to disambiguate.
IMO, "your Spellcasting feature" in this case clearly means the one for spellcaster player characters. For monsters it's an Action (link to the MM), as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, if we're talking about "game feature" in general, yeah, it can include species traits, class features, feats, abilities, spells, special actions, etc. And as you mentioned, "game feature" is also used in the SAC to explain things.
if there was a significant intended difference between "game feature" and "feature", this would have been explicitly written somewhere. We have every reason to believe "feature / game feature" is just down to how the sentence flows and are interchangable, or rather we have no particular reason to believe otherwise. See also: this ruling uses 'unless a game feature says otherwise' , while this other ruling (and most others) uses "unless a feature says otherwise".
But see the problem here is that i cannot prove my point of view any more than you can, and the burden of proof does not seem like it falls on any particular person either. It's all ******* vibes and interpretations and vague nonsense all the way down and i'd rather die than sit here squabbling about it and thus waste the time of everyone involved. There is no answer to be had unless someone goes out of their way to ask JC or whomever the single most nonsensical question yet.
edit: local man opens can of worms; now upset can of worms has been opened
edit 2: also the linked section does not prove or disprove anything in regards to the spellcasting action in a monster's stat block being or not being considered a feature
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.
Similarly, in the 2024 PHB, the following explanation uses (game) "elements", which could also be considered a synonym for (game) "features":
The game also includes elements—class features, feats, weapon properties, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and the like—that sometimes contradict a general rule. When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins. For example, if a feature says you can make melee attacks using your Charisma, you can do so, even though that statement disagrees with the general rule.
. . . the game designers betting on the reader understanding what feature named Spellcasting is supposed to be "the" spellcasting feature, especially when under this ruling there are actiually eight different features named spellcasting (one for each non-pact magic spellcasting class plus arcane trickster and eldrich knight), each working slightly differently from the others, and that all eight of them are "the" spellcasting feature while another set of npc-exclusive features named Spellcasting are not "the" spellcasting feature . . .
There is support for what is meant by this within the multiclassing rules:
Special rules apply to Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and features (such as Unarmored Defense) that give you alternative ways to calculate your Armor Class.
Spellcasting
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, follow the rules for that class.
This text appears in a subheading labeled "Class Features" and in this context the term "feature" seems to be a shorthand for the term "class feature".
In my opinion, there is enough context within the description of the Shapechange spell to determine that "the Spellcasting feature" mentioned there is referring to the Spellcasting class feature that is described in the above rules for multiclassing. It would probably be better if there was some minor erratum to change the phrase "the Spellcasting feature" to "the Spellcasting class feature", but I think we're unlikely to see that happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Shapechange does not fail to address them, creatures simply don't use spell slots, thus when you cast a spell from the creature's stat block, it does not use spell slots but if you used your own spellcasting feature while in shape change, that does use spell slots.
Concentration is also easily resolved, if you attempted to cast a spell that needs concentration then shapechange itself would end and so realistically the list of usable spells is slightly reduced. If you changed into a Dryad as an earlier example, you can not cast pass without trace or Entangle since they are both concentration spells and Shapechange is a concentration spell.
Monsters don't have a spellcasting feature though, they have actions that sometimes produces a spell. I don't see where the problem lies tbh?
@R3sistance The Shapechange spell doesn't address what happen if the monster has Spellcasting, only saying you retain yours. But statistics you retained shouldn't be duplicated but have only one INT, WIS, CHA for example.
But i think i remember why i originally answer in another thread that they would both work, Monster Spellcasting isn't a feature or trait anymore as Thezzaruz said, its an Action.
Going back full circle to my original position i think you'd get both ;)
That's why, IMO, if you use Counterspell successfully against a monster, the spell cast by that monster is lost and the number of uses isn't recovered.
Good observation.
this argument depends on what the definition for a "feature" is, a word which has not been explicitly defined anywhere despite being mentioned constantly - presumably becuase it is almost always used to disambiguate.
In relation to monster rules, we have the following definition for traits:
now this does spell out that traits are features, but it does not completely exclude the idea that a monster's other properties like swim speed or special actions aren't also features that just happen to not have an active / inactive state the way traits do. Wording found within the phb glossary for actions could be used to imply that anything that any action you can take not listed there is a thing given to you by a feature, although that feels like a dubious interpretation.
Elsewhere in the rules, 'feature' just seems to mean any rules text that is specific to this one guy / this one object, or perhaps as "any bit of rules text with a name". In an much cited sage advice answer, JC seems to imply that a dragon's breath weapon is categorized as a 'game feature' since you would follow the same steps for determining if it is magical as you would any other 'game feature', thus meaning that particular action in it's stat block is at the very least an action. The "combining different effects" rules text from the original DMG also used the wording of 'game features'.
(is a "game feature" even the same thing as a "feature"? I sure hope so becuase arguing or thinking about any of this sounds like hell, not to mention miserable)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
speaking of unopened cans of worms, using specifically the example of an Adult Brass Dragon shapeshifting into a mage: the mage statblock has the misty step bonus action and the protective magic reaction. Both give it access to spells not listed in the Spellcasting feature / action, using the same spellcasting ability as it's Spellcasting feature / action. If we are to believe the ruling that the dragon's Spellcasting action replaces the Mage's Spellcasting action, does this also mean that it casts misty step and counterspell using charisma as it's spellcasting ability, and using the DC found in it's dragon stat block?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
similarly, what about the priest stat block or any number of similar stat blocks that all feature the Divine Aid bonus action and refer back to a creature's Spellcasting. These too give out special spells (sometimes good ones even) that are not part of the spellcasting trait.
Like on the one hand, saying "same ability as Spellcasting" rather than simply spelling out which ability score you refer to would arguably not make sense unless there was some type of way for a version of the same stat block to exist with a different spellcasting trait. On the other, it would seem baffling to have an interpretation of the rules where in effect shapechange only ever gives you access to the spells in a stat block that specifically don't take an action to cast as well as spells that were named something different for flavour / callback reasons (ie succubus and it's 'charm' action). Would also imply that the spell works inherrently different for creatures that managed to cast the spell via a magic item or some other feature without having the spellcasting trait, and that the moment they gain even a single level in a spellcasting class, the way this spell works for them inherrently changes.
oh god and for that matter, one of the statistics shapechange does not seem to call out as being kept is your proficiency bonus. Meaning that even as you retain your int / wis / cha, spellcasting and proficiencies while shapeshifted, you might still end up having a worse spell save dc while shapechanged and lower skill bonuses in skills you are proficient in. Which really is unfortunate.
a
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The Adult Brass Dragon and the mage do not possess "the" Spellcasting feature. "The" Spellcasting feature is referring to the feature which allows spellcasters to cast spells with the spell slot mechanic such as the ones that are found within the Class descriptions for the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer and so on.
These monsters do not use spell slots. Instead, they take an action that is labeled with the word "spellcasting". Labels like this can be anything -- they have no mechanical meaning.
When the Adult Brass Dragon shape-shifts into a mage, it's stat block is replaced. It can no longer cast Scorching Ray, for example. When it does cast a spell with the mage's Spellcasting action (the newly acquired Fireball spell, for example), the spell save DC would have to be recalculated. As per the mage's action, it would be using Intelligence instead of Charisma. But it would use the Adult Brass Dragon's (retained) Intelligence and the mage's proficiency bonus:
DC = 8 + 2 + 3 = 13.
on the one hand, this is a very convenient ruling that sidesteps a lot of emergent weirdness with other rulings like "what about xyz monster action that allows them to cast spells but isin't called spellcasting" and "do i accumulate features named Spellcasting between transformations?"
on the other hand, this ruling is entirely dependent on either:
meaning that the argument is resting on very shaky ground indeed
(also such a ruling may cause some weirdness with "huh, how come this spellcaster cannot cast their known spells while using this spell but i can?" but at the moment the only npc spellcasters that can cast shapechange are ones where the spell is replacing an innate ability built-in to their stat block so who cares)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
IMO, "your Spellcasting feature" in this case clearly means the one for spellcaster player characters. For monsters it's an Action (link to the MM), as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, if we're talking about "game feature" in general, yeah, it can include species traits, class features, feats, abilities, spells, special actions, etc. And as you mentioned, "game feature" is also used in the SAC to explain things.
if there was a significant intended difference between "game feature" and "feature", this would have been explicitly written somewhere. We have every reason to believe "feature / game feature" is just down to how the sentence flows and are interchangable, or rather we have no particular reason to believe otherwise. See also: this ruling uses 'unless a game feature says otherwise' , while this other ruling (and most others) uses "unless a feature says otherwise".
But see the problem here is that i cannot prove my point of view any more than you can, and the burden of proof does not seem like it falls on any particular person either. It's all ******* vibes and interpretations and vague nonsense all the way down and i'd rather die than sit here squabbling about it and thus waste the time of everyone involved. There is no answer to be had unless someone goes out of their way to ask JC or whomever the single most nonsensical question yet.
edit: local man opens can of worms; now upset can of worms has been opened
edit 2: also the linked section does not prove or disprove anything in regards to the spellcasting action in a monster's stat block being or not being considered a feature
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Sorry! I was just giving my opinion, not pretending to keep the can open any longer :D
There is support for what is meant by this within the multiclassing rules:
This text appears in a subheading labeled "Class Features" and in this context the term "feature" seems to be a shorthand for the term "class feature".
In my opinion, there is enough context within the description of the Shapechange spell to determine that "the Spellcasting feature" mentioned there is referring to the Spellcasting class feature that is described in the above rules for multiclassing. It would probably be better if there was some minor erratum to change the phrase "the Spellcasting feature" to "the Spellcasting class feature", but I think we're unlikely to see that happen.