Players are in combat, and one of the opponents is wearing a mask, which allows them to control a horde of zombies wreaking havoc in a village. The Wizard of the group wants to use Mage Hand to take off the mask. Good idea, I thought, but how should that be ruled? I felt that Mage Hand could not make any skill or ability checks, but nothing is stopping the Hand from simply flying over and pulling the mask off. At the moment, I couldn't think of any way to counter it besides making the mask weigh more than ten pounds, so, rewarding a good idea, I allowed it to happen.
Odd question, but I'm mostly looking for your perspective on how you would rule this scenario.
Side Note: With the Mask removed, the zombies were out of control, attacking everyone on the battlefield, both good and evil, since they were no longer being directed. Chaos ensued, and players had fun.
A Mage Hand can’t attack and while it makes no mention of ability check per se, the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand Legerdemain feature specifically let you you can make Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks to give you an example, which we can deduce you otherwise cannot.
Now DM can make any ruling for fun of course, but from a rules perspective, disarming others of weapons or items isn't really defined outside specific feature.
If i'd do so, i'd make sure to clearly tell the players that this was an exception and not something they can do repeatedly against enemies, and vice versa, as i believe it's preferable not to mess with anyone's magic items or gear so easily.
If i'd do so, i'd make sure to clearly tell the players that this was an exception and not something they can do repeatedly against enemies, and vice versa, as i believe it's preferable not to mess with anyone's magic items or gear so easily.
Agree. I looked at it, and it was a mask, loose fitting, but I am going to make sure it is not an abusive action.
Yeah. I’d be careful. I could definitely see some folks I play with trying to use it to pull down someone’s pants, or otherwise start interacting with worn items.
A Sage Advice has the following suggestion for disarming by improvising an action afterall;
Can a non-Battle Master attempt to disarm someone?
The Disarming Attack maneuver is designed for the Battle Master Fighter, but any character can try to disarm a foe. Such an attempt would fall under improvising an action not detailed by the rules and would be up to your DM to adjudicate.
In general, I'd likely say no. For a couple of reasons. (though it is a fun idea and I might allow it in the moment via rule of cool but I'd probably require a relatively high DC on an ability check to succeed - maybe DC20 Sleight of Hand - Intelligence - to correctly position and apply the force from the hand to dislodge the mask .. on the other hand, this steps on the toes of mage hand legerdemain as mentioned).
The reasons I'd consider saying no would be the following ...
1) The creature is wearing the mask during a fight where they are expected to likely move around, perhaps make attacks of their own or cast spells. If the mask is so lightly secured that a mage hand could remove it then the creature wearing it would need to be using a hand most of the time to hold it in place. Since the creature would not typically choose to do that - I would assume that the mask is reasonably well secured with a strap or two (or is magically attached) so that the creature can take normal actions without the mask risking falling off. I'd also rule that a mage hand is no typically capable of the fine manipulations needed to undo clasps or straps except maybe for an Arcane Trickster.
2) The mage hand is visible. The creature wearing the mask isn't likely to stand there and let the character manipulating the mage hand move it up to their head and attempt to remove their mask.
3) When mage hand is cast, the wizard has it appear anywhere within 30'. There is no description of the hand being sufficiently movable to keep up with the body motions of a creature involved in combat to an extent that would allow the caster of the hand to move it up to the creature and keep the hand moving while trying to manipulate an object being worn by another creature.
4) RAW, the uses of mage hand are quite limited "When you cast the spell, you can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial." .. There is no indication that the spell offers any feedback on what it is interacting with. Trying to undo something based on what you can see from 30' would be extremely challenging. On the other hand, Mage hand legerdemain allows for sleight of hand checks including picking locks .. this could just be attributed to "magic" but may also indicate that in this case there might be some feedback to the user since otherwise it might be impossible to pick a lock without some sort of sensory feedback.
Anyway, unless the mask would be very easily knocked off, I don't think mage hand would be able to do anything.
5) The last reason I'd say no ... beyond the logical and rules reasons that suggest it wouldn't work ... is the potential for abuse. D&D players are very imaginative and once they have something cool allowed like manipulating opponents during a fight using mage hand ... they will come up with all sorts of other cool ways to use it.
- use mage hand to grab an opponents boot and trip them up, or move a 10lb rock into their path so they trip on it
- use mage hand to drop a 10lb rock onto the opponents head ... or foot ... or hand holding their weapon
- use mage hand to tie the laces of the opponent's boots together
- use mage hand to undo the opponents belt or armor straps
- use mage hand to pull the trigger on the opponents crossbow when they aren't ready - either sending it wide or causing it to hit another opponent (if timed correctly)
- use mage hand to joggle the elbow of the archer when aiming, reduce the pressure on the bow string by 10lbs so it doesn't fly correctly, pull the arrow out of the archer's fingers and have it drop to the ground
ALL of these and MANY more would seem to be within the range of possible options of use of mage hand in combat if it is capable of removing a mask from one of the opponents. So, although the mask trick is cool the first time - the hundreds of other possible uses it opens up might not be as pleasant for the DM to deal with. :)
David42 makes some good points. I think the best ones being that the character wearing the mask would be dodging the hand, and the mask would be fairly secure to be worn in combat, and that mage hand may just not be fast enough to keep up with such a situation. I don't think it's a good idea to allow mage hand to undo straps attached to a moving resisting character in combat. OTOH Mage hand legerdemain suggests that mage hand can be directed against moving attended objects if you are practiced with it. But undoing straps in combat still be impossible IMO. Just grabbing the mask and yanking would be very difficult.
IF you do allow such a use of mage hand it would certainly make sense to have the wizard controlling it make an attack roll to direct the grabbing of the mask off a moving target that can see it coming. I would make that at disadvantage both due to distance, and using the magical hand not their own body. You might also give the opponents AC a modifier as the mask is a very small target as opposed to hitting anywhere a on a person that might harm them.
Players are in combat, and one of the opponents is wearing a mask, which allows them to control a horde of zombies wreaking havoc in a village. The Wizard of the group wants to use Mage Hand to take off the mask. Good idea, I thought, but how should that be ruled? I felt that Mage Hand could not make any skill or ability checks, but nothing is stopping the Hand from simply flying over and pulling the mask off. At the moment, I couldn't think of any way to counter it besides making the mask weigh more than ten pounds, so, rewarding a good idea, I allowed it to happen.
Odd question, but I'm mostly looking for your perspective on how you would rule this scenario.
Side Note: With the Mask removed, the zombies were out of control, attacking everyone on the battlefield, both good and evil, since they were no longer being directed. Chaos ensued, and players had fun.
A Mage Hand can’t attack and while it makes no mention of ability check per se, the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand Legerdemain feature specifically let you you can make Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks to give you an example, which we can deduce you otherwise cannot.
Now DM can make any ruling for fun of course, but from a rules perspective, disarming others of weapons or items isn't really defined outside specific feature.
If i'd do so, i'd make sure to clearly tell the players that this was an exception and not something they can do repeatedly against enemies, and vice versa, as i believe it's preferable not to mess with anyone's magic items or gear so easily.
Agree. I looked at it, and it was a mask, loose fitting, but I am going to make sure it is not an abusive action.
Yeah. I’d be careful. I could definitely see some folks I play with trying to use it to pull down someone’s pants, or otherwise start interacting with worn items.
A Sage Advice has the following suggestion for disarming by improvising an action afterall;
In general, I'd likely say no. For a couple of reasons. (though it is a fun idea and I might allow it in the moment via rule of cool but I'd probably require a relatively high DC on an ability check to succeed - maybe DC20 Sleight of Hand - Intelligence - to correctly position and apply the force from the hand to dislodge the mask .. on the other hand, this steps on the toes of mage hand legerdemain as mentioned).
The reasons I'd consider saying no would be the following ...
1) The creature is wearing the mask during a fight where they are expected to likely move around, perhaps make attacks of their own or cast spells. If the mask is so lightly secured that a mage hand could remove it then the creature wearing it would need to be using a hand most of the time to hold it in place. Since the creature would not typically choose to do that - I would assume that the mask is reasonably well secured with a strap or two (or is magically attached) so that the creature can take normal actions without the mask risking falling off. I'd also rule that a mage hand is no typically capable of the fine manipulations needed to undo clasps or straps except maybe for an Arcane Trickster.
2) The mage hand is visible. The creature wearing the mask isn't likely to stand there and let the character manipulating the mage hand move it up to their head and attempt to remove their mask.
3) When mage hand is cast, the wizard has it appear anywhere within 30'. There is no description of the hand being sufficiently movable to keep up with the body motions of a creature involved in combat to an extent that would allow the caster of the hand to move it up to the creature and keep the hand moving while trying to manipulate an object being worn by another creature.
4) RAW, the uses of mage hand are quite limited "When you cast the spell, you can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial." .. There is no indication that the spell offers any feedback on what it is interacting with. Trying to undo something based on what you can see from 30' would be extremely challenging. On the other hand, Mage hand legerdemain allows for sleight of hand checks including picking locks .. this could just be attributed to "magic" but may also indicate that in this case there might be some feedback to the user since otherwise it might be impossible to pick a lock without some sort of sensory feedback.
Anyway, unless the mask would be very easily knocked off, I don't think mage hand would be able to do anything.
5) The last reason I'd say no ... beyond the logical and rules reasons that suggest it wouldn't work ... is the potential for abuse. D&D players are very imaginative and once they have something cool allowed like manipulating opponents during a fight using mage hand ... they will come up with all sorts of other cool ways to use it.
- use mage hand to grab an opponents boot and trip them up, or move a 10lb rock into their path so they trip on it
- use mage hand to drop a 10lb rock onto the opponents head ... or foot ... or hand holding their weapon
- use mage hand to tie the laces of the opponent's boots together
- use mage hand to undo the opponents belt or armor straps
- use mage hand to pull the trigger on the opponents crossbow when they aren't ready - either sending it wide or causing it to hit another opponent (if timed correctly)
- use mage hand to joggle the elbow of the archer when aiming, reduce the pressure on the bow string by 10lbs so it doesn't fly correctly, pull the arrow out of the archer's fingers and have it drop to the ground
ALL of these and MANY more would seem to be within the range of possible options of use of mage hand in combat if it is capable of removing a mask from one of the opponents. So, although the mask trick is cool the first time - the hundreds of other possible uses it opens up might not be as pleasant for the DM to deal with. :)
David42 makes some good points. I think the best ones being that the character wearing the mask would be dodging the hand, and the mask would be fairly secure to be worn in combat, and that mage hand may just not be fast enough to keep up with such a situation. I don't think it's a good idea to allow mage hand to undo straps attached to a moving resisting character in combat.
OTOH Mage hand legerdemain suggests that mage hand can be directed against moving attended objects if you are practiced with it. But undoing straps in combat still be impossible IMO. Just grabbing the mask and yanking would be very difficult.
IF you do allow such a use of mage hand it would certainly make sense to have the wizard controlling it make an attack roll to direct the grabbing of the mask off a moving target that can see it coming. I would make that at disadvantage both due to distance, and using the magical hand not their own body. You might also give the opponents AC a modifier as the mask is a very small target as opposed to hitting anywhere a on a person that might harm them.