Hello everyone, I am asking for some advice on a ruling with monk using their attack action to do a special melee attack "shove" and if doing so still allows them to make their martial arts fury of blows or bonus action unarmed attack.
My assumption would be it would work due to the monk using their hands or monk weapon to make the shove action
Under both the 2014 and the 2024 rules, this is allowed.
Under the 2014 rules, because the requirement for using the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows is that you take the Attack action on your turn before doing so, and Grappling and Shoving are special things you can do to replace one or more of your attacks on the Attack action.
Edit: My assertion here is not correct, an attack with a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike is required for the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike under the 2014 rules. Flurry of Blows, on the other hand, only requires the Attack action.
(I'm also suddenly finding, confusingly, that the "Grappling" and "Shoving a Creature" paragraphs are some of the places where the 2014 PHB rules call something an attack that doesn't use an Attack Roll. That probably should have been errata'ed years ago.)
Under the 2024 rules, there is no requirement to use the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows, so it doesn't matter what you do on your Action, or when it occurs.
Thank you, that is also what I thought but found some conflicting information where some said it works and others dont. The ones that said it doesnt would try and state its not an unarmed strike or monk weapon attack so you can't flurry or bonus action unarmed attack. Which seemed silly to me because the monk is litterally making the shove action as their attack action special melee attack... presumably with their unarmed fists.
Thanks again appreciate the quick response!
also great if others want to chime in and give their oppinions and validation.
[...] also great if others want to chime in and give their oppinions and validation.
With the 2024 rules:
[...] Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. [...]
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. [...]
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. [...]
It doesn't matter if that Unarmed Strike is made as part of the Attack action or Bonus Action in order to choose Damage, Grapple or Shove.
And it's even possible to Grapple or Shove with an Opportunity Attack:
Opportunity Attacks
You can make an Opportunity Attack when a creature that you can see leaves your reach using its action, its Bonus Action, its Reaction, or one of its speeds. To make the Opportunity Attack, take a Reaction to make one melee attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach. See also “Playing the Game” (“Combat”).
Based on OPs comments it looks to me like the question is about the 2014 rules.
In the 2014 rules, shove + flurry of blows is allowed. However, shove + bonus action unarmed strike is technically not allowed since that bonus action requires a previous monk weapon attack or unarmed strike and the 2014 shove does not fall into either of those categories.
Thank you, that is also what I thought but found some conflicting information where some said it works and others dont. The ones that said it doesnt would try and state its not an unarmed strike or monk weapon attack so you can't flurry or bonus action unarmed attack. Which seemed silly to me because the monk is litterally making the shove action as their attack action special melee attack... presumably with their unarmed fists.
While I mainly agree with what's been said I'll add one bit that might explain why you got conflicting answers.
From the Monk's 2014 Martial Arts feature
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
This means that in the 2014 rules a Monk could not do a shove/grapple and then do their BA unarmed strike (because those are neither an unarmed strike or a monk weapon). They could however do their BA Flurry of Blows (as that only required taking the Attack Action without any demands what you did with it).
You are correct that its for 2014 rules. I feel like where shove is still a special melee attack (which would be used by their unarmed fists) it might be up to dm interpretation. So ill probably see if we can do the unarmed bonus attack but if they dont allow it then go with what you said and use it in conjunction with flurry of blows. Still a win though if you can shove then use flurry of blows. I know if the monk was lvl 5 def could do it with the unarmed bonus action attack due to the extra attack feature, but sadly this is for a tournament and we are lvl 3.
You are correct that its for 2014 rules. I feel like where shove is still a special melee attack (which would be used by their unarmed fists) it might be up to dm interpretation.
Not really any interpretation to it tbh, the rule is quite clear. Of course the rule is also quite stupid, hence why they changed it, so the DM might allow it anyway.
I know if the monk was lvl 5 def could do it with the unarmed bonus action attack due to the extra attack feature, but sadly this is for a tournament and we are lvl 3.
This is also kind of bad reasoning. Just having the extra attack feature doesn't allow you to do the BA unarmed strike, you still need to satisfy the requirement of "use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon". Sure it gets easier to do so when you can make two attacks but if you chose to use both attacks to do two shoves then you would be in the same situation as if you had just one attack and did one shove.
Ya I was just saying they might allow it cause it is dumb it wouldnt work and they changed it for 2024. I Should of clarified better that at lvl 5 with extra attack they could shove prone, attack with unarmed strike or monk weapon, and then bonus action unarmed attack or flurry of blows. Thanks for all the oppinions though everyone as it helps us plan for the best team tactics with the characters we are provided.
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Hello everyone, I am asking for some advice on a ruling with monk using their attack action to do a special melee attack "shove" and if doing so still allows them to make their martial arts fury of blows or bonus action unarmed attack.
My assumption would be it would work due to the monk using their hands or monk weapon to make the shove action
Under both the 2014 and the 2024 rules, this is allowed.
Under the 2014 rules, because the requirement for using the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows is that you take the Attack action on your turn before doing so, and Grappling and Shoving are special things you can do to replace one or more of your attacks on the Attack action.
Edit: My assertion here is not correct, an attack with a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike is required for the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike under the 2014 rules. Flurry of Blows, on the other hand, only requires the Attack action.
(I'm also suddenly finding, confusingly, that the "Grappling" and "Shoving a Creature" paragraphs are some of the places where the 2014 PHB rules call something an attack that doesn't use an Attack Roll. That probably should have been errata'ed years ago.)
Under the 2024 rules, there is no requirement to use the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows, so it doesn't matter what you do on your Action, or when it occurs.
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Thank you, that is also what I thought but found some conflicting information where some said it works and others dont. The ones that said it doesnt would try and state its not an unarmed strike or monk weapon attack so you can't flurry or bonus action unarmed attack. Which seemed silly to me because the monk is litterally making the shove action as their attack action special melee attack... presumably with their unarmed fists.
Thanks again appreciate the quick response!
also great if others want to chime in and give their oppinions and validation.
.
With the 2024 rules:
It doesn't matter if that Unarmed Strike is made as part of the Attack action or Bonus Action in order to choose Damage, Grapple or Shove.
And it's even possible to Grapple or Shove with an Opportunity Attack:
Based on OPs comments it looks to me like the question is about the 2014 rules.
In the 2014 rules, shove + flurry of blows is allowed. However, shove + bonus action unarmed strike is technically not allowed since that bonus action requires a previous monk weapon attack or unarmed strike and the 2014 shove does not fall into either of those categories.
While I mainly agree with what's been said I'll add one bit that might explain why you got conflicting answers.
From the Monk's 2014 Martial Arts feature
This means that in the 2014 rules a Monk could not do a shove/grapple and then do their BA unarmed strike (because those are neither an unarmed strike or a monk weapon). They could however do their BA Flurry of Blows (as that only required taking the Attack Action without any demands what you did with it).
In the 2024 rules neither the BA Unarmed Strike nor the Flurry of Blows require any kind of action to be activated.
You are correct that its for 2014 rules. I feel like where shove is still a special melee attack (which would be used by their unarmed fists) it might be up to dm interpretation. So ill probably see if we can do the unarmed bonus attack but if they dont allow it then go with what you said and use it in conjunction with flurry of blows. Still a win though if you can shove then use flurry of blows. I know if the monk was lvl 5 def could do it with the unarmed bonus action attack due to the extra attack feature, but sadly this is for a tournament and we are lvl 3.
Sorry, I didn't realize that. I've updated and added a comment to my previous answer about it.
Not really any interpretation to it tbh, the rule is quite clear. Of course the rule is also quite stupid, hence why they changed it, so the DM might allow it anyway.
This is also kind of bad reasoning. Just having the extra attack feature doesn't allow you to do the BA unarmed strike, you still need to satisfy the requirement of "use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon". Sure it gets easier to do so when you can make two attacks but if you chose to use both attacks to do two shoves then you would be in the same situation as if you had just one attack and did one shove.
Ya I was just saying they might allow it cause it is dumb it wouldnt work and they changed it for 2024. I Should of clarified better that at lvl 5 with extra attack they could shove prone, attack with unarmed strike or monk weapon, and then bonus action unarmed attack or flurry of blows. Thanks for all the oppinions though everyone as it helps us plan for the best team tactics with the characters we are provided.