The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
The Dragonmark feats from the Eberron UA don't give you any spell slots you wouldn't already have. They give you a way to cast their particular spell(s) without using a spell slot, which wouldn't trigger Wild Magic Surge because it's not using a spell slot.
Spell slots don't really have a class associated with them anyway.
Last page of the Eberron Update PDF.
Potent Dragonmark
...
Dragonmark Spellcasting. You have one spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat. The spell slot’s level is one-half your level (round up), to a maximum of level 5. You regain the expended slot when you finish a Short or Long Rest. You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell that you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat.
We'll see what the final version looks like in ... December?
The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
The Dragonmark feats from the Eberron UA don't give you any spell slots you wouldn't already have. They give you a way to cast their particular spell(s) without using a spell slot, which wouldn't trigger Wild Magic Surge because it's not using a spell slot.
Spell slots don't really have a class associated with them anyway.
Last page of the Eberron Update PDF.
Potent Dragonmark
...
Dragonmark Spellcasting. You have one spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat. The spell slot’s level is one-half your level (round up), to a maximum of level 5. You regain the expended slot when you finish a Short or Long Rest. You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell that you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat.
We'll see what the final version looks like in ... December?
Fair enough, but the point remains — no spell slots have a class associated with them anyway, so these are no different. If you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, you don't have Sorcerer spell slots and Wizard spell slots; you just have spell slots.
The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
The Dragonmark feats from the Eberron UA don't give you any spell slots you wouldn't already have. They give you a way to cast their particular spell(s) without using a spell slot, which wouldn't trigger Wild Magic Surge because it's not using a spell slot.
Spell slots don't really have a class associated with them anyway.
Last page of the Eberron Update PDF.
Potent Dragonmark
...
Dragonmark Spellcasting. You have one spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat. The spell slot’s level is one-half your level (round up), to a maximum of level 5. You regain the expended slot when you finish a Short or Long Rest. You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell that you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat.
We'll see what the final version looks like in ... December?
Fair enough, but the point remains — no spell slots have a class associated with them anyway, so these are no different. If you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, you don't have Sorcerer spell slots and Wizard spell slots; you just have spell slots.
Yes, you only have wizard and sorcerer spells (among other spells)
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Fair enough, but the point remains — no spell slots have a class associated with them anyway, so these are no different. If you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, you don't have Sorcerer spell slots and Wizard spell slots; you just have spell slots.
The slots don't, but the spells do. If you aren't of those classes, you won't have features keying off casting a Sorcerer spell, for example. Are there any scenarios where you get a feature like that from an item (that doesn't require attunement by a member of the class that it affects), species, or feat? Are there any creatures or other effects that react to spells from a certain class being cast?
I have Kobold that can cast Sorcerous Burst from their species trait. Is that a Sorcerer spell even though they are a single class Arcane Trickster? Does the converse assumption add anything?
I have Kobold that can cast Sorcerous Burst from their species trait. Is that a Sorcerer spell even though they are a single class Arcane Trickster? Does the converse assumption add anything?
In this scenario the spell that is cast IS a Sorcerer spell. In this case you are using the rules given by your species trait to prepare and cast that spell instead of using any class feature to perform those activities. So, for example, when casting that spell you would be using the Spellcasting Ability that is given by those rules for your species trait and NOT the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature (which you do not have access to as a single class Arcane Trickster) and you also are NOT using the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Spellcasting class feature that is provided to an Arcane Trickster. You also would not be able to use a Spellcasting Focus to cast this spell since the species trait does not explicitly provide any method for doing so (moot in this exact case since the spell that you happened to choose does not require an M component).
I have Kobold that can cast Sorcerous Burst from their species trait. Is that a Sorcerer spell even though they are a single class Arcane Trickster? Does the converse assumption add anything?
In this scenario the spell that is cast IS a Sorcerer spell. In this case you are using the rules given by your species trait to prepare and cast that spell instead of using any class feature to perform those activities. So, for example, when casting that spell you would be using the Spellcasting Ability that is given by those rules for your species trait and NOT the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature (which you do not have access to as a single class Arcane Trickster) and you also are NOT using the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Spellcasting class feature that is provided to an Arcane Trickster. You also would not be able to use a Spellcasting Focus to cast this spell since the species trait does not explicitly provide any method for doing so (moot in this exact case since the spell that you happened to choose does not require an M component).
Right. Can a Kobold species trait have you know a cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list and that not be a Sorcerer spell regardless of whether you are a Sorcerer or not? If no, doesn't that disprove the SAC ruling about multiclassing?
Secondarily, if the spell can be a Sorcerer Spell when you don't have an Sorcerer class levels, does that matter? Are there any scenarios where it being a Sorcerer spell matters? For example, a Bloodwell Vial adds to attack rolls and saves of Sorcerer spells, but it doesn't matter because you have to be a Sorcerer to attune it. In 3.x, you might have Feats with requirements like "the ability to spontaneously cast Arcane spells" but I am not aware of an equivalent in 5.x. I also can't think of anything that would be something like "whenever a sorcerer spell is cast within X feat."
So, I think if you are not a Sorcerer, the classification is moot. If you are a Sorcerer, it's just an additional spell. If it's a level 1+ spell, it's one more spell prepared. If it's one you want to cast and trigger Wild Magic Surge with, the SAC would have you double up on preparing it. I don't think the multiclassing SAC makes sense in this context.
A Wild Magic Sorcerer 3 / Wizard X can trigger, IMO, Wild Magic Surges on spells prepared as a Wizard that are also on the Sorcerer's spell list. And vice versa, a Sorcerer X / Abjuration Wizard 3 can cast Abjuration Sorcerer spells to trigger Arcane Ward. It might be odd, but a Wild Magic Sorcerer 3+ / Abjuration Wizard 3+ would have a full set of spell slots, but a reduced level of prepared spells and can trigger Wild Magic Surge and Arcane Ward effects on any spell that is both a Sorcerer spell and an Abjuration spell. Maybe a level 8 in one and 12 in the other. Is that actually problematic?
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
I have to agree with you all that the answer is problematic, and in a RAW sense incorrect.
I guess my main issue with the answer is that it misrepresents the rule as written. They quote the rule "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes", ends it with a period and then goes on to make a claim about what it means. But that isn't what the rule actually says. The sentence doesn't end there with a period, it has a comma and then continues "and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell". So the rule tells us what the association means and that is something different from what the SAC answers claims it to be. Any meaning/limitation of "association" beyond that of determining what spellcasting ability to use is one that the rules never say, not in the multiclass chapter or in the spellcasting chapter. They might well have intended there to be such a limitation but they didn't actually write it into the game.
Yeah, that's the point to me. The rules don't say exactly that, but... isn't the SAC the place to understand the intention?
[...] Of course I usually just ignore the issue of foci completely. The idea that an item that a character uses to focus their magic would only work for a specific type of magic is stupid to me. Surely a characters training in magic would allow them to learn to control both divine, arcane and nature magic with the same item, especially when there exists foci that aren't limited to a specific school/class.
[...] If you rely on spell preparation as the definition of what class a cast spell belongs to, Warlock Invocations aren't Warlock spells. Species and Feat spells never work with a class, even if a spell only exists on one class's spell list. In addition, some of the scenarios are just silly. A single class Wizard who takes Magic Initiate (Wizard) can't treat those spells as Wizard spells?
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
But if the answer is yes, we're entering a dangerous zone, because then you could even use your Sorcerer spellcasting focus for that spell if you're a Sorcerer/Wizard.
Or, and now we're diving straight into the Abyss, we're opening the gate to using your Wizard spellcasting focus for spells cast as a Sorcerer if that spell also happens to be a Wizard spell.
I disagree. I think the danger you propose is unwarranted.
I mean, it's "danger" in the sense of changing how this topic was ruled in 2014.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
This is a Wizard class feature. A fighter with Magic Initiate (Wizard) doesn't have it. A Paladin with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant has the feature, but it doesn't apply to Unseen Servant Squire because it is a Wizard only spell, not a Paladin spell. A Wizard with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant just has an extra Wizard spell and the Spellcasting Focus should work just fine.
If you used Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Detect Magic, it should be an Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell for class features because of this SAC answer:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
What does a Sorcerer's Spellcasting Focus feature look at? Whether a spell is a Sorcerer spell. What is a Sorcerer spell? A spell on the Sorcerer spell list. Does it matter how it was prepared/known? No. The spellcasting entry makes no RAW requirements around that. Even the multiclassing entry makes no RAW requirements around that. It says that each spell prepared is "associated with a class", but does not state what that entails except that it uses the spellcasting ability score of that class. Granted, that could be a clarification of "associated with a class" or a separate statement altogether, but if it is not a clarification, there is no RAW import of being associated with a class within the PHB itself. The SAC interjects importance without basis that causes a conflict with other rules.
I agree that what you say is right based on that specific SAC answer. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that as a Sorcerer/Wizard you can use a single spellcasting focus (e.g. your spellbook) for all prepared spells that are on both lists at the same time?
Also, I'm starting to think the removal of the blue sentence from 2014 might mean something:
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
Or maybe not, it's an error to be fixed and we should follow the RAI (the SAC ruling about multiclassing)
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
I think no, unless you have a feature that let you specifically do so. If you're a Wizard ""you can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells." so if the chosen spell is on the Wizard spell list, it's one and can use a focus.
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
I think no, unless you have a feature that let you specifically do so. If you're a Wizard ""you can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells." so if the chosen spell is on the Wizard spell list, it's one and can use a focus.
Uh... I realized now I didn't explicitly say it. I meant: as a Wizard, can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
Sorry if this caused any confusion in your earlier replies, guys, but rereading those, I think they were consistent.
Plaguescarred understanding the rules the way you said:
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
(I don't mean to step on Plaguescarred's answer.)
Musical Instrument as a focus is keyed entirely off of being a bard and casting a bard spell. It does not care about how the spell is prepared or cast.
Compare to the Tasha's version of Artificer, wherein the "Tools Required" feature is keyed off, specifically, the Artificer's spellcasting feature. So if an Artificer were to learn Acid Splash (which is on the Artificer list) via only Magic Initiate, for some reason, then that spell would not gain the M component and not be compatible with, say, the Artillerist's Arcane Firearm feature. We'll see if any of this is revised to a simpler form for the new version of Artificer.
I agree that what you say is right based on that specific SAC answer. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that as a Sorcerer/Wizard you can use a single spellcasting focus (e.g. your spellbook) for all prepared spells that are on both lists at the same time?
If you're a Wizard ""you can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells." so if the chosen spell is on the Wizard spell list, it's one and can use a focus.
RAW, it doesn't actually work like that.
There is no inherent connection between the type of Spellcasting Focus being used (orb, amulet, etc.) and the type of spell that is being cast (Wizard Spell, Sorcerer Spell, etc.).
The things to remember about the mechanics of the Spellcasting Focus are:
General Rule:
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them, a spellcaster can use a Component Pouch (see “Equipment”) instead of providing the materials specified in the spell, or the spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution.
Admittedly, I've changed my thinking about exactly how this works since the rules were initially published, but my interpretation of this is that not only do you need to "have" such a feature, but you also need to actually use that feature when you are casting the spell. In other words, spellcasting classes such as Wizards and Sorcerers generally do not have a blanket standalone passive ("always on") class feature that always allows for the use of a Spellcasting Focus no matter what. They typically have a clause that is contained within their Spellcasting class feature which details exactly how the character might use a Spellcasting Focus when using that Spellcasting class feature to cast a spell.
Next, to determine exactly which spells can be cast with the Spellcasting Focus, you have to look at what your particular feature actually says. So, for example, the Wizard Spellcasting class feature contains a clause which says this:
"Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells."
So, it's not true that an Arcane Focus can automatically be used for Wizard spells in general. It's true for a Wizard because this feature says so. In addition, for this rule to apply you actually have to be using your Spellcasting class feature to cast the spell since this "Spellcasting Focus" clause is a property of that feature.
So, to go back to your scenario above: It's not enough that the spell is on the Wizard spell list and that it is prepared in your mind (somehow). You have to actually be using your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast the spell in order to apply the above rule about being able to use a Spellcasting Focus.
So, if you are a Wizard/Sorcerer character, it is not necessarily true that you can use your Spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for all of your prepared spells which appear on both the Wizard Spell List and the Sorcerer Spell List (the "big" lists).
Example 1: You prepare such a spell by using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature, potentially adding it to your List of Level 1+ Sorcerer Spells (one of your "small" lists) assuming it's a leveled spell. Because of the multiclass rule, you are not allowed to cast this spell by using your Wizard Spellcasting class feature, and the rule which allows you to use your Spellbook as your Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells is contained within that feature, so this rule is unavailable to you when you cast this spell.
Uh... I realized now I didn't explicitly say it. I meant: as a Wizard, can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
Even though this character is a Wizard, you would not be able to use a Wizard Spellcasting Focus such as your Spellbook to cast a spell that was prepared by and is being cast by your Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat, even though that spell is a Wizard spell that is prepared in your mind.
For the most straightforward example, assume that the spell in question happens to be a spell that does not appear in your spellbook at all and therefore you are unable to use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare that spell in the Wizard's traditional way. This means that you cannot use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell. Since the rule for using the Spellcasting Focus is a property of that Wizard Spellcasting class feature and that feature is not being used to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat spell, then that rule is unavailable to you when you cast that spell.
To make a long story short, the feature that you are actually using to cast the spell must explicitly provide a method for using a Spellcasting Focus in order to be able to use one. It's similar to how pretty much every single game feature that allows you to cast a spell will declare which Spellcasting Ability you should be using when you cast it. The feature gives its own rules for how the spell can be cast.
Plaguescarred understanding the rules the way you said:
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
Similar situation here. If Unseen Servant is a spell that exists in your Spellbook, and you use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare that spell into your mind, then the multiclass rule dictates that you must also use the Wizard Spellcasting class feature (and NOT your Bard Spellcasting class feature) to cast that spell. The Wizard Spellcasting class feature does not allow for using a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus and the Bard Spellcasting class feature is not being used -- so the rule which would allow for this use of the Musical Instrument is unavailable to you when casting this spell in this way.
However, if you have some sort of feature that gives you some sort of a bonus whenever you cast a Bard spell, then that bonus WOULD apply when casting Unseen Servant in this way because Unseen Servant is a Bard spell.
Plaguescarred understanding the rules the way you said:
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
It's a Bard spell per Sage Advice? Then you should be able to use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for your Bard spells.
AFAIK preparing a spell using a Spellcasting feature or Magic Initiate feat doesn't change which Class a spell count as. And the rules for casting a spell cares that you have a feature letting you substitute material components for spellcasting focus.
Admittedly, I've changed my thinking about exactly how this works since the rules were initially published, but my interpretation of this is that not only do you need to "have" such a feature, but you also need to actually use that feature when you are casting the spell. In other words, spellcasting classes such as Wizards and Sorcerers generally do not have a blanket standalone passive ("always on") class feature that always allows for the use of a Spellcasting Focus no matter what. They typically have a clause that is contained within their Spellcasting class feature which details exactly how the character might use a Spellcasting Focus when using that Spellcasting class feature to cast a spell.
It doesnt say "You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells using this Spellcasting feature"
The Wizard Spellcasting feature for example i believe refers to those rules being the rules on spellcasting, not the Spellcasting feature itself.
So to the question of TarodNet "can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?" the Wizard
is casting a Wizard spell
has a feature that allows that substitution of meterial component for spellcasting focus.
Level 1: Spellcasting
As a student of arcane magic, you have learned to cast spells. See “Spells” for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
Material (M)
A Material component is a particular material used in a spell’s casting, as specified in parentheses in the Components entry. These materials aren’t consumed by the spell unless the spell’s description states otherwise. The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them, a spellcaster can use a Component Pouch (see “Equipment”) instead of providing the materials specified in the spell, or the spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution. To use a Component Pouch, you must have a hand free to reach into it, and to use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see “Equipment” for descriptions).
Plaguescarred understanding the rules the way you said:
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
It's a Bard spell per Sage Advice? Then you should be able to use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for your Bard spells.
AFAIK preparing a spell using a Spellcasting feature or Magic Initiate feat doesn't change which Class a spell count as. And the rules for casting a spell cares that you have a feature letting you substitute material components for spellcasting focus. [...]
Ok. Not because it shocks me or changes how I understood the rules in 2014 should I think it's wrong now in 2024. It's just how it works now, as others are saying too.
Interestingly, I started with that interpretation.
[...] IMO, the SAC is trying to address cases where you can cast known spells but don't prepare them, like the debatable Eldritch Invocations, the one Ins0mniac_cat asked about, or for example, if your Wood Elf Wizard can use their spellcasting focus for Longstrider granted by their trait (considering you didn't know that spell before)
The multiclassing answer from the SAC was my problem, so I should admit it's causing more problems than it solves. As mentioned before, a clarification in the SAC would be appreciated, maybe removing that answer.
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We'll see what the final version looks like in ... December?
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My houserulings.
Fair enough, but the point remains — no spell slots have a class associated with them anyway, so these are no different. If you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, you don't have Sorcerer spell slots and Wizard spell slots; you just have spell slots.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yes, you only have wizard and sorcerer spells (among other spells)
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The slots don't, but the spells do. If you aren't of those classes, you won't have features keying off casting a Sorcerer spell, for example. Are there any scenarios where you get a feature like that from an item (that doesn't require attunement by a member of the class that it affects), species, or feat? Are there any creatures or other effects that react to spells from a certain class being cast?
I have Kobold that can cast Sorcerous Burst from their species trait. Is that a Sorcerer spell even though they are a single class Arcane Trickster? Does the converse assumption add anything?
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My houserulings.
In this scenario the spell that is cast IS a Sorcerer spell. In this case you are using the rules given by your species trait to prepare and cast that spell instead of using any class feature to perform those activities. So, for example, when casting that spell you would be using the Spellcasting Ability that is given by those rules for your species trait and NOT the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature (which you do not have access to as a single class Arcane Trickster) and you also are NOT using the Spellcasting Ability that is listed within the Spellcasting class feature that is provided to an Arcane Trickster. You also would not be able to use a Spellcasting Focus to cast this spell since the species trait does not explicitly provide any method for doing so (moot in this exact case since the spell that you happened to choose does not require an M component).
Right. Can a Kobold species trait have you know a cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list and that not be a Sorcerer spell regardless of whether you are a Sorcerer or not? If no, doesn't that disprove the SAC ruling about multiclassing?
Secondarily, if the spell can be a Sorcerer Spell when you don't have an Sorcerer class levels, does that matter? Are there any scenarios where it being a Sorcerer spell matters? For example, a Bloodwell Vial adds to attack rolls and saves of Sorcerer spells, but it doesn't matter because you have to be a Sorcerer to attune it. In 3.x, you might have Feats with requirements like "the ability to spontaneously cast Arcane spells" but I am not aware of an equivalent in 5.x. I also can't think of anything that would be something like "whenever a sorcerer spell is cast within X feat."
So, I think if you are not a Sorcerer, the classification is moot. If you are a Sorcerer, it's just an additional spell. If it's a level 1+ spell, it's one more spell prepared. If it's one you want to cast and trigger Wild Magic Surge with, the SAC would have you double up on preparing it. I don't think the multiclassing SAC makes sense in this context.
A Wild Magic Sorcerer 3 / Wizard X can trigger, IMO, Wild Magic Surges on spells prepared as a Wizard that are also on the Sorcerer's spell list. And vice versa, a Sorcerer X / Abjuration Wizard 3 can cast Abjuration Sorcerer spells to trigger Arcane Ward. It might be odd, but a Wild Magic Sorcerer 3+ / Abjuration Wizard 3+ would have a full set of spell slots, but a reduced level of prepared spells and can trigger Wild Magic Surge and Arcane Ward effects on any spell that is both a Sorcerer spell and an Abjuration spell. Maybe a level 8 in one and 12 in the other. Is that actually problematic?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Yeah, that's the point to me. The rules don't say exactly that, but... isn't the SAC the place to understand the intention?
TBH, that's fair.
I mean, it's "danger" in the sense of changing how this topic was ruled in 2014.
I agree that what you say is right based on that specific SAC answer. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that as a Sorcerer/Wizard you can use a single spellcasting focus (e.g. your spellbook) for all prepared spells that are on both lists at the same time?
Also, I'm starting to think the removal of the blue sentence from 2014 might mean something:
Or maybe not, it's an error to be fixed and we should follow the RAI (the SAC ruling about multiclassing)
I think no, unless you have a feature that let you specifically do so. If you're a Wizard ""you can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells." so if the chosen spell is on the Wizard spell list, it's one and can use a focus.
Uh... I realized now I didn't explicitly say it. I meant: as a Wizard, can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
Sorry if this caused any confusion in your earlier replies, guys, but rereading those, I think they were consistent.
Plaguescarred understanding the rules the way you said:
You're a Bard/Wizard and you have prepared the Unseen Servant spell only as a Wizard. Could you use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for that spell?
(I don't mean to step on Plaguescarred's answer.)
Musical Instrument as a focus is keyed entirely off of being a bard and casting a bard spell. It does not care about how the spell is prepared or cast.
Compare to the Tasha's version of Artificer, wherein the "Tools Required" feature is keyed off, specifically, the Artificer's spellcasting feature. So if an Artificer were to learn Acid Splash (which is on the Artificer list) via only Magic Initiate, for some reason, then that spell would not gain the M component and not be compatible with, say, the Artillerist's Arcane Firearm feature. We'll see if any of this is revised to a simpler form for the new version of Artificer.
and also:
RAW, it doesn't actually work like that.
There is no inherent connection between the type of Spellcasting Focus being used (orb, amulet, etc.) and the type of spell that is being cast (Wizard Spell, Sorcerer Spell, etc.).
The things to remember about the mechanics of the Spellcasting Focus are:
General Rule:
Admittedly, I've changed my thinking about exactly how this works since the rules were initially published, but my interpretation of this is that not only do you need to "have" such a feature, but you also need to actually use that feature when you are casting the spell. In other words, spellcasting classes such as Wizards and Sorcerers generally do not have a blanket standalone passive ("always on") class feature that always allows for the use of a Spellcasting Focus no matter what. They typically have a clause that is contained within their Spellcasting class feature which details exactly how the character might use a Spellcasting Focus when using that Spellcasting class feature to cast a spell.
Next, to determine exactly which spells can be cast with the Spellcasting Focus, you have to look at what your particular feature actually says. So, for example, the Wizard Spellcasting class feature contains a clause which says this:
"Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells."
So, it's not true that an Arcane Focus can automatically be used for Wizard spells in general. It's true for a Wizard because this feature says so. In addition, for this rule to apply you actually have to be using your Spellcasting class feature to cast the spell since this "Spellcasting Focus" clause is a property of that feature.
So, to go back to your scenario above: It's not enough that the spell is on the Wizard spell list and that it is prepared in your mind (somehow). You have to actually be using your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast the spell in order to apply the above rule about being able to use a Spellcasting Focus.
So, if you are a Wizard/Sorcerer character, it is not necessarily true that you can use your Spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for all of your prepared spells which appear on both the Wizard Spell List and the Sorcerer Spell List (the "big" lists).
Example 1: You prepare such a spell by using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature, potentially adding it to your List of Level 1+ Sorcerer Spells (one of your "small" lists) assuming it's a leveled spell. Because of the multiclass rule, you are not allowed to cast this spell by using your Wizard Spellcasting class feature, and the rule which allows you to use your Spellbook as your Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells is contained within that feature, so this rule is unavailable to you when you cast this spell.
Example 2:
Even though this character is a Wizard, you would not be able to use a Wizard Spellcasting Focus such as your Spellbook to cast a spell that was prepared by and is being cast by your Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat, even though that spell is a Wizard spell that is prepared in your mind.
For the most straightforward example, assume that the spell in question happens to be a spell that does not appear in your spellbook at all and therefore you are unable to use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare that spell in the Wizard's traditional way. This means that you cannot use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell. Since the rule for using the Spellcasting Focus is a property of that Wizard Spellcasting class feature and that feature is not being used to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat spell, then that rule is unavailable to you when you cast that spell.
To make a long story short, the feature that you are actually using to cast the spell must explicitly provide a method for using a Spellcasting Focus in order to be able to use one. It's similar to how pretty much every single game feature that allows you to cast a spell will declare which Spellcasting Ability you should be using when you cast it. The feature gives its own rules for how the spell can be cast.
Similar situation here. If Unseen Servant is a spell that exists in your Spellbook, and you use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare that spell into your mind, then the multiclass rule dictates that you must also use the Wizard Spellcasting class feature (and NOT your Bard Spellcasting class feature) to cast that spell. The Wizard Spellcasting class feature does not allow for using a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus and the Bard Spellcasting class feature is not being used -- so the rule which would allow for this use of the Musical Instrument is unavailable to you when casting this spell in this way.
However, if you have some sort of feature that gives you some sort of a bonus whenever you cast a Bard spell, then that bonus WOULD apply when casting Unseen Servant in this way because Unseen Servant is a Bard spell.
It's a Bard spell per Sage Advice? Then you should be able to use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for your Bard spells.
AFAIK preparing a spell using a Spellcasting feature or Magic Initiate feat doesn't change which Class a spell count as. And the rules for casting a spell cares that you have a feature letting you substitute material components for spellcasting focus.
It doesnt say "You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells using this Spellcasting feature"
The Wizard Spellcasting feature for example i believe refers to those rules being the rules on spellcasting, not the Spellcasting feature itself.
So to the question of TarodNet "can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?" the Wizard
Ok. Not because it shocks me or changes how I understood the rules in 2014 should I think it's wrong now in 2024. It's just how it works now, as others are saying too.
Interestingly, I started with that interpretation.
The multiclassing answer from the SAC was my problem, so I should admit it's causing more problems than it solves. As mentioned before, a clarification in the SAC would be appreciated, maybe removing that answer.