Been debating this one all weekend. Have a Paladin player who has this spell. It clearly says that it "Serves as a controlled mount" and "it has only 3 actions during that turn, dash, disengage, and dodge". It says also that it only serves as a controlled mount "While you ride it."
So if you're not riding it, it's implying that its an 'independent mount' which is defined one that 'lets you ride it but ignores your control'.
I also note that on all summoned creatures, it clearly states "Will follow your commands", and this one does not have this detail.
If it is allowed to attack and operate fully like a summoned creature, it is incredibly powerful--so it would make sense it does not serve for that purpose.
Below is my opinion from a similar thread. I think mounting Find Steed isn't required, so it behaves similarly to other summoned creatures in that situation. If you please, take a look at the answers there for more opinions.
I allow players to control summoned or conjured monsters, but I guess other DMs might rule it differently.
When not mounted, it should act with its normal actions, controlled by the Paladin, sharing your initiative:
Combat. The steed is an ally to you and your allies. In combat, it shares your Initiative count, and it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it (as defined in the rules on mounted combat). If you have the Incapacitated condition, the steed takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you.
But other summons, in fact ALL other summons, specifically state
"The creature is an ally to you and your allies. In combat, the creature shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It obeys your verbal commands (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any, it takes the Dodge action and uses its movement to avoid danger."
So all other summons state clearly that it obeys your commands. So it would make sense that the player controls those fully. But oddly enough, this one doesn't have that line in there. And when it says "functions as a controlled mount while you ride it", my interpretation means that its not a controlled mount when you don't. And if they wanted it to be just another summoned pet, wouldn't they just say that? But then also, if it's just another summoned pet--why is it magnitudes better than any other similar level summon?
I can definitely see that both sides have a case, especially because its pretty ambiguous.
So someone might ask, "Why does it have an attack if it can't attack?". I'd say it can certainly defend itself if attacked.
I've read everything I can possibly find on this topic, and JC even writes two opinions which disagree with eachother.
It seems to me that it's insanely powerful for a level 2 spell if it can attack. It can absorb at least 2 hits--possibly 3-4-5 depending on the rolls. That alone--it's like mirror image, except it can attack, teleport, heal, and carry you and equipment. Imagine getting a level 2 spell that can be cast, lasts 24 hours and can absorb 3 hits, changes your movement to 50ft, and gives you a free misty step--oh, and double your damage output.
Lets say there are 5 encounters in a day and each one lasts 3 rounds. It'll do 1d8+2 damage per hit, presuming it hits. That's an additional 97.5, average damage. If a wizard were casting scorching ray for every attack--it would average 105 damage. In terms of damage output, it's like adding an entirely new party member, let alone the damage it mitigates, and all the other ways its an awesome summon.
I'm trying very hard to maintain balance at my table, and at times there are spells like this that I think they really didn't look closely enough at.
If it's really that powerful or not, idk honestly.
But if we go strictly by RAW, "it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it (as defined in the rules on mounted combat)". Does that mean the steed loses all its actions, then? Because those rules say:
The Initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves on your turn as you direct it, and it has only three action options during that turn: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.
So I'm understanding you right, you're saying that unmounted, it can't take Actions or Bonus Actions from its stat block, and mounted only Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. Then, when the creature use its own abilities?
In fact, one of the Bonus Actions mentions its rider, so it's something the steed can do once you mount it:
Fey Step (Fey Only; Recharges after a Long Rest). The steed teleports, along with its rider, to an unoccupied space of your choice up to 60 feet away from itself.
And in any case, if you don't allow the steed to take actions when it's not mounted, it acts as it likes, and I'd say this includes taking its Actions or Bonus Actions:
In contrast, an independent mount—one that lets you ride but ignores your control—retains its place in the Initiative order and moves and acts as it likes.
Beside all this, isn't it fun to command your steed to fly and heal some of your friends while you fight your enemies?
I also agree with tarodnet. But I have always thought the idea of an uncontrolled mount was a little murky. In game, someone at the table has to control the thing, and if it’s the paladin’s player, then it seems like really splitting hairs about the difference. So, you could always, as the DM, decide that you are going to take its turn. The paladin player can say what they want it to do, but the mount has a mind of its own and may make its own decision.
I’d also add, it’s not all that strong. It has a 12 AC, 25 hp and a +1 dex save. Most attacks are going to hit it, and it’s not likely to survive most AoE spells. And, just to be clear, it can teleport or heal, not both, and only 1/day at that.
And, it’s still going to run into more mundane problems. Being large it should be harder to maneuver. The first time it encounters a 31- foot tall ladder, the thing is left behind. It’s not going to be allowed into the bar or the throne room where assassins are waiting. If every encounter is in an open field and it can always get into melee every round, then maybe your numbers make sense. But that will rarely be the case.
One thing to consider, those are only it's stats when you use a level 2 spell slot. You can upcast it to level 3 or 4 (to be technical you could even upcast it to 5, but you need to be 17th level at that point). This will buff up it's HP a bit more (+10 hp per level) and it's AC (+1 per level) and even give it a tiny bit more damage (+1 per level), so you aren't necessarily looking at 12 AC, 25 HP. Also, with the Mounted Combat Feat you get the Leap Aside feature which helps protect against AoEs. Also, when the summoner is healed the steed gets healed, which can help its longevity.
Since the steed sticks around until it dies it just makes sense to cast it using the highest level spell slot that you've got when you're in a moment of safety before you Long Rest, and if it dies, you just wait for another good opportunity and do it again.
All that said, it is certainly no combat monster. The rules for Mounted Combat seem to pretty clearly preclude it from attacking while it is being ridden (beyond the possible Fell Glare). Once its rider is incapacitated there shouldn't really be much of an issue with allowing it to use its Otherworldly Slam attack as part of protecting its rider.
The only real issue I can see is if you have a Paladin who summons it, then refuses to ride it because he wants it making its own separate attacks. That's a sort of cheesy tactic, but its attack isn't really damaging enough to cause a significant problem. Honestly the Paladin is probably hurting themselves more than helping themselves because now they aren't getting the Advantage and greater mobility that they could get through Mounted Combat.
"So I'm understanding you right, you're saying that unmounted, it can't take Actions or Bonus Actions from its stat block,"
I'm thinking that it can, but that it would operate independently of the will of the summoner. It would avoid combat, but defend itself and likely avoid combat when not being ridden. My concern is that the steed is interpreted as all other summoned creatures--and all the other summoned creatures clearly state that they will follow the casters commands (and attack etc).
Xalthu, "In game, someone at the table has to control the thing, and if it’s the paladin’s player, then it seems like really splitting hairs about the difference."
My interpretation is that this is much more impactful than splitting hairs. By giving the Paladin control of the horse when not being ridden, it has turned into an additional companion in the party, and alone as a combatant can nearly double the damage output of the caster. Not just damage output, but absorb several attacks. And that's not even considering all its other capabilities. As you suggested, I think it would be best for the DM to control it while unmounted, and its priority would be to survive.
As Esampson pointed out, it continues to scale upwards.
If we re-frame it, the balance issues become more clear. Let's say we take all of its abilities and turn it into a spell called "Buff". This "Buff" adds 25hp and has an AC of 12 to hit. It gives you an extra 1d8+2 attack. This "Buff" spell also gives you an extra opportunity attack. This buff spell can create an occupied space of 2x2 which can provide cover behind it and creatures cannot move through it. This buff spell allows you 50ft of movement on top of your own movement. The buff spell allows you to misty step and heal. This Buff spell will scale as you level and let you fly later on. This Buff spell can fetch things for you. It can carry things for you. This spell is always prepared and doesn't use a spell slot.
If this spell existed, what level spell would you place it? If this were a feat, would you take it? On my end, I would place this among the most useful spells that exists. Maybe a level 5+ spell. If it were a feat, I would take it above all other feats in an instant.
Counter Arguments "it is certainly no combat monster." It's not a monster, but its much more significant than it appears. My concern is not while ridden, its only while not being ridden. Because its once per long rest and has 12ac and 25hp, yeah it won't last long. But it will still absorb hits, large and small, at no consequence--likely several hits. What I expect my Paladin to do is exactly what you describe--doesn't ride it and uses it as a second companion.
The damage is much more significant than it seems, doing the math, damage output increase is way above 50%. It's similar to the argument against Graze weapon mastery effect--if you miss it just a little bit of damage. But the math behind it shows that it has a significant impact in overall DPS, possibly better than any other mastery.
Which is why I think it should not be able to be fully controlled by the caster when unmounted.
It scales upwards, but the enemies do, too. That extra point of AC and 10 hp aren’t really going to matter much. Certainly it’s worth upcasting the spell. Even more so when using the 4th level slot means it can fly. But it’s not really making a big impact on the steed’s usefulness as a melee combatant.
Combat balance is far more than just DPS and HP, this is part of the problem with answering this question--if adjudicators think that DPS and AC are the primary measure of combat balance, then they're missing most of the picture. There's an exponential growth of complexity when another party member is added to the team. Combat effectiveness is much more complex than saying "One more player adds 25% more capacity". It's not linear.
That horse has a full set of action economy. It can serve as a dodging machine. It's another attack every round. Its another reaction every round. It's a physical barrier in combat. It can block enemies and provide cover for allies behind it. Its speed means it can chase down distant enemies. Its teleport means it can bypass terrain and obstacles. It can also heal, which means it can revive KO'd allies.
This is why summoned creatures from casters, at the same level, cost a ton of gold (100+), require concentration, and last 1 hour. This steed is not only better than them, lasts the full day, requires no gold, no concentration, no spell slots, and has more abilities. Both are level 2--see the issue? I think its a clear oversight in the rules in terms of balance.
Without attacking independently, they're still incredibly useful.
A creature that is not being ridden is not mounted, therefore the rules for mounted combat wouldn't apply. Mount isn't a tag applied to certain creatures intrinsically, it's a tag applied based on context, specifically that creature A has mounted creature B.
RAW, Otherworldly Steed is a monster and has all the actions available to a monster unless stated otherwise. Neither the stat block or Find Steed mention any restriction on the actions. As such, it is RAW unrestricted. In fact, the spell description says that "If you have the Incapacitated condition, the steed takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you." It would be very difficult to do so in combat if it was not able to take normal combat actions.
This is why summoned creatures from casters, at the same level, cost a ton of gold (100+), require concentration, and last 1 hour. This steed is not only better than them, lasts the full day, requires no gold, no concentration, no spell slots, and has more abilities. Both are level 2--see the issue? I think its a clear oversight in the rules in terms of balance.
No, I don't. Summon Beast is a 2nd level Druid Spell that requires concentration and a 200 GP material component, that is not consumed by the spell. The Bestial Spirit has its full set of actions available if the caster commands it (no action required). The druid can first cast this spell at 3rd level.
A Paladin can first cast Find Steed at character level 5. You aren't comparing two 2nd level spells. You are comparing a character level 5 ability to a character level 3 ability.
Find Steed is more akin to Find Familiar and some other spells that have been previewed in UA. Find Familiar has a long casting time (if you are not a Pact of the Chain Warlock) and a costly but mostly trivial material component (10 GP). Unlike Find Steed, it can be cast as a Ritual without a spell slot (but Paladins can cast once per day without a spell slot but this means no upcasting). The Familiar also has a full action set apart from the [actions]Attack[/actions] action. A Warlock's familiar can be particularly potent. Find Steed is closer to Find Familiar that any of the summon spells. It is one level higher (minimum), is not a ritual, has no material component, and does not restrict the Steed from attacking.
Also, look at Create Undead for a higher level version. In this case, one or more Undead creatures can be commanded with a Bonus Action, but on subsequent turns, they continue following that order until the task is complete. Again, there is a relatively small material cost (150 GP, not consumed, is pretty small at 11th level).
No, I don't think there is a problem. I think the choice of spells for the comparison you were making is misleading.
"RAW, Otherworldly Steed is a monster and has all the actions available to a monster unless stated otherwise." How is this RAW? My point though is not that it can't attack--it still has all the available actions, my point of contention is whether or not the Paladin has full control over it on his turn (without riding it) and dictates what it does. Other summons clearly state "Will follow your commands", the Familiar clearly states "cannot attack", it's clearly outlined in those cases.
Mounts can be controlled or independent. As the spell states, " it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it ". This is telling me that the condition at which it is controlled is dependent on it being ridden. At which point it is independent, and an independent mount acts on its own volition, not at the command of the summoner. My issue is about it being controlled as a summon would be while not being ridden.
In terms of equity of power: it still requires a 200gp object, it still requires concentration, and it lasts only an hour, and clearly states "obeys your commands". That it doesn't consume the 200gp object doesn't change the fact that this still requires concentration and lasts only an hour, and consumes a spell slot! All of which are clear limitations that Find Steed doesn't have.
"You aren't comparing two 2nd level spells." No, I'm literally comparing 2nd level spells. The level at which a character gets it is not relevant. A 9th level ranger gets level 3 spells, a 5th level wizard gets level 3 spells. Spells are not level abilities.
"Find steed is closer to find familiar" What are you talking about? No its not, not even close. You can't ride a familiar. It can't carry all your equipment. It doesn't change your movement speed. It doesn't occupy a 2x2 square. It doesn't provide cover. It doesn't have an attack, it doesn't have opportunity attacks. It can't heal you, it can't teleport you, and doesn't cause frighten. A familiar has 1-3hp, the steed has 25 to start and scales upward. A Familiar has a CR of 0. These are not remotely close.
It's far, far better than Summon Beast, but has none of the restrictions. That's why it doesn't make sense that it behaves essentially as another party member under the control of the Paladin.
My point though is not that it can't attack--it still has all the available actions, my point of contention is whether or not the Paladin has full control over it on his turn (without riding it) and dictates what it does. Other summons clearly state "Will follow your commands", the Familiar clearly states "cannot attack", it's clearly outlined in those cases.
It is a "loyal steed", it is "an ally to you and your allies", and " If you have the Incapacitated condition, the steed takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you." If you are not riding it, it is not a "controlled mount". It is loyal enough and can communicate with the Paladin that it is reasonable, in my opinion, to allow the player to control the steed as a second character. There is nothing stating that the steed must obey any commands you give it, so it may decide to take a different action that what you instruct.
Mounts can be controlled or independent. As the spell states, " it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it ". This is telling me that the condition at which it is controlled is dependent on it being ridden. At which point it is independent, and an independent mount acts on its own volition, not at the command of the summoner. My issue is about it being controlled as a summon would be while not being ridden.
If you aren't riding your mount, it's not a mount. It's a loyal allied creature.
In terms of equity of power: it still requires a 200gp object, it still requires concentration, and it lasts only an hour, and clearly states "obeys your commands". That it doesn't consume the 200gp object doesn't change the fact that this still requires concentration and lasts only an hour, and consumes a spell slot! All of which are clear limitations that Find Steed doesn't have.
Find Familiar and Create Undead don't require concentration. Create Undead needs to be recast daily to retain control, but if you don't need to control them, or have another method to do so, you don't need a spell slot the next day. Find Familiar doesn't require a spell slot. In both cases, the material costs are trivial.
Summon spells are completely different beasts (no pun intended) and comparing them is invalid. Summoned creatures are significantly nastier if they are meant for combat. With a level 2 spell slot (a 3rd level caster facing CR 3 enemies), a Bestial Spirit has AC 13, 30 HP, Darkvision, and 1 attackdealing 1d8 + 4 + your spellcasting modifier. If you pick a flying beast, it only has 20 HP but it flies (Find Steed needs a 4th level slot for this) and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity when moving out of a creature's reach.
By contrast, an Otherwolrdly Steed will be still using a 2nd level slot, but will be in CR 5 combat with AC 12, 25 HP, no special vision, and 1 attack dealing 1d8 + your spellcastingmodifier.
Scaling up to a 4th level spell slot Otherworldly Steed, you'd have AC 14, 45 HP, still no special vision, and still only 1 attack dealing 1d8 + your spellcasting modifier. A Bestial Spirit with a 4th level slot will have AC 15, 40 HP (30 HP if flying), Darkvision, and 2 attacks per action. However, again, that Steed will be in CR 13 combats while the Bestial Spirit will be in CR 7 encounters. To match the CR, A Bestial Spirit with a level 7 slot (Druid level 13+) will be AC 18, 55 HP (45 for Air), Darkvision, and 3 attacks per action each dealing 1d8 + 4 + your spellcasting modifier (most likely 1d8 + 9).
As a combatant, Otherworldly Steed is much weaker than a Bestial Spirit when examined from a purely mechanical perspective and it's not even taking into account that a Paladin's spell casting modifier is will typically fall well behind a Druid's.
"You aren't comparing two 2nd level spells." No, I'm literally comparing 2nd level spells. The level at which a character gets it is not relevant. A 9th level ranger gets level 3 spells, a 5th level wizard gets level 3 spells. Spells are not level abilities.
It's absolutely relevant. The encounters that the spells will be used in is absolutely relevant to the balance of the spell. You cannot compare a Paladin only spell to a spell of the same level available to a pure spellcaster. They will 100% be balanced differently and will be balanced based on the character level at which the spell can be accessed.
"Find steed is closer to find familiar" What are you talking about? No its not, not even close. You can't ride a familiar. It can't carry all your equipment. It doesn't change your movement speed. It doesn't occupy a 2x2 square. It doesn't provide cover. It doesn't have an attack, it doesn't have opportunity attacks. It can't heal you, it can't teleport you, and doesn't cause frighten. A familiar has 1-3hp, the steed has 25 to start and scales upward. A Familiar has a CR of 0. These are not remotely close.
It's far, far better than Summon Beast, but has none of the restrictions. That's why it doesn't make sense that it behaves essentially as another party member under the control of the Paladin.
You are vastly undervaluing both Find Familiar and Summon Beast and overvaluing Find Steed.
What role do you play in your group? Are you the DM, the Paladin, or a player who is not the Paladin?
Unless I've missed some clarification, that is a bit murky. While a mount is allowed to Dodge each round it is not clear whether that protects the rider or merely makes the mount harder to hit (and improves some of its saves).
Unless I've missed some clarification, that is a bit murky. While a mount is allowed to Dodge each round it is not clear whether that protects the rider or merely makes the mount harder to hit (and improves some of its saves).
It seems clear to me.
"The Initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves on your turn as you direct it, and it has only three action options during that turn: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge."
Dodge: "If you take the Dodge action, you gain the following benefits: until the start of your next turn, any attack roll made against you has Disadvantage if you can see the attacker, and you make Dexterity saving throws with Advantage."
The mount takes the action. The mount gets the benefit. The rider has to take the Dodge action to get the benefit.
I appreciate your feedback as food for thought, but I don't see a convincing argument. Part of me deciding on what to do with this is others' feedback.
Re: All monsters taking all actions I mean if you strictly go raw, you would adjudicate that the Shrieker, (a mushroom) can attack, dodge, dash, lay prone, help, hide, and utilize a tool. Or that a zombie can influence, it can study, it can deceive, and perform. RAW makes sense in most cases, but there are almost always cases where exceptions exist. But that's not my point. I've said that the animal will still get its standard array of actions, and the sticking point is whether or not the Paladin controls it like a drone when he is not riding it.
"It is a loyal steed so the player can control it completely as an additional companion in battle". Nope, doesn't make sense. So you're defining your logic in this case based on your interpretation of an undefined 'loyal steed' and therefore it can be remote controlled by the Paladin. And you're arbitrarily deciding that 'loyal' means 'remote controllable'. Could you define loyal? Does loyal mean "Disregards personal safety and will fight to the death in all circumstances?" does loyal mean "Has no independent will"? What precisely do you mean by 'loyal'?
Communication Ok, so---it's stated they communicate telepathically, so they can communicate. So then what degree of command can this horse understand? "Move 20 feet west!" "Fetch me a beer!" "Tell my friend to come help me by stomping your feet 3 times.". "Go attack that dragon!". How do you determine the communication capacity? Steeds, don't do those things, regardless of how loyal they are. My interpretation of this would start with "What can a normal horse do?". That communication is telepathic doesn't mean that the quality of the understanding is any different than verbal. So I would think "What orders could a loyal steed understand verbally?"
"There is nothing stating that the steed must obey any commands you give it, so it may decide to take a different action that what you instruct. " Now you're disagreeing with yourself. You also say "it is reasonable, in my opinion, to allow the player to control the steed ".
These are contradictory. Telling an animal to do something and it doesn't do it, is not control. So make up your mind--can it be controlled or not when its not being ridden? Because I agree with you on the first part, the Paladin can ask it to do whatever it wants, but the steed is independent, and can do whatever it wants, which also means the Paladin has NO control over the mount when not mounted. If I were to then adjudicate the will of the horse, I would certainly say self-preservation is the highest priority, which means running away from danger.
Comparisons to Create undead and Find Familiar You're missing something fundamental here, comparing only what is similar and then not comparing or discussing the array of ways they're not remotely similar. It's like saying "A pizza and an apple are the same thing, because you can eat both of them!". You're comparing a 6th level spell, Create Undead, to a 2nd level spell? What?
Then you're comparing summoned creatures stats HP, AC, and Attack, and saying that "Otherwolrdly Steed will be still using a 2nd level slot" (?)--it doesn't use a spell slot at all. You understand that value is more than those things? smh. Lemme spell this out here:
Can it heal you? Steed = yes. Beast = no. Can it misty step? Steed = yes Beast= no. Can it carry your things? Steed = yes Beast = no Can you ride it? Steed = yes Beast = no. Can it revive a downed ally? Steed = yes Beast = no Does it last 24 hours? Steed = yes Beast = no Does it require NO concentration? Steed = yes Beast = no Does it require NO spell slot? Steed = yes Beast = no Does it require NO material component worth 200gp? Steed = yes Beast = no Can you equip it with plate armor for an AC of 18? Steed = yes Beast = no Can you tell your plate armored steed to dodge every round with an effective AC of 23? Steed = yes Beast =no
And then you go "But the beastial spirit has 1ac more, 5 more hp, and can do more damage! It's therefore superior!" bruh. smh.
"You cannot compare a Paladin only spell to a spell of the same level available to a pure spellcaster. " (?) What? I'm not sure why you don't see this. Spell levels are based on spell power. It has nothing to do with the level at which a class gets it. You understand that a Paladin is a hyrbrid class right? The reason it gets a level 2 spell, which is equivalent to all level 2 spells, at level 5, is because the Paladin has other things that make it powerful. Giving a hybrid class spells at the same level as a pure caster would overpower the class.
I do appreciate your perspective, but they're virtually all short-sighted. I'm a DM, and I pay very close attention to balance and fairness.
I’m not going to quote, because that was a lot but I’ll say a few things. A typical warhorse has a 2 int. This one has a 6, so it substantially smarter. an 8. It’s as smart as most of the fighters and barbarians in the party (considering how commonly int is a dump stat, it’s as smart as many characters that aren’t a wizard or artificer). So unless you’re going to start ruling 8 int characters can’t understand what 20’ west means, the mount should be able to. Really, the start of your question, what can a normal horse do, is flawed. This thing isn’t a horse at all, it’s a spirit that is horse-shaped; it’s not a normal horse.
The spirit part also gets to the loyalty area. You can’t judge the actions of a summoned magical spirit by the standards of what a mundane horse might do. For example, the thing doesn’t fight to the death because it doesn’t die. It just returns home and waits to be summoned again.
On taking actions, cherry picking a couple extreme examples doesn’t prove your point. First off, technically shreikers and zombies can do those things. The same way a 3’ tall halfling has the same reach as a 7’ tall goliath. It’s a game and there are game rules that are designed to make it fun, not to be logical. But even if we accept there may be reasons a DM wouldn’t allow a given creature to perform a given action, this one doesn’t fall into those categories.
But overall, I think we’ve reached a point where it’s clear you weren’t looking for advice or opinions, you were looking for people to agree with you, and it seems people don’t. You wanted to hear it’s not permitted by RAW, which everyone else says it is. Then the argument transitioned to overpowered, and everyone says it’s really not. All that said, you’re the DM, you can impose whatever house rules you like at your table.
Unless I've missed some clarification, that is a bit murky. While a mount is allowed to Dodge each round it is not clear whether that protects the rider or merely makes the mount harder to hit (and improves some of its saves).
Yeah, as the above poster says, dodge would clearly only apply to the mount. The better thing to do is have the mount disengage and ride away. At that point the mount doesn’t draw an OA because it disengaged . Also the rider doesn’t draw an OA because it’s not using its own movement. But that’s all by design and part of the extra mobility being mounted gives the rider.
Hi all,
Been debating this one all weekend. Have a Paladin player who has this spell. It clearly says that it "Serves as a controlled mount" and "it has only 3 actions during that turn, dash, disengage, and dodge". It says also that it only serves as a controlled mount "While you ride it."
So if you're not riding it, it's implying that its an 'independent mount' which is defined one that 'lets you ride it but ignores your control'.
I also note that on all summoned creatures, it clearly states "Will follow your commands", and this one does not have this detail.
If it is allowed to attack and operate fully like a summoned creature, it is incredibly powerful--so it would make sense it does not serve for that purpose.
Looking for opinions!
Cheers!
Below is my opinion from a similar thread. I think mounting Find Steed isn't required, so it behaves similarly to other summoned creatures in that situation. If you please, take a look at the answers there for more opinions.
I fully support TarodNet even though i've seen other DMs run differently.
Tarod,
But other summons, in fact ALL other summons, specifically state
"The creature is an ally to you and your allies. In combat, the creature shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It obeys your verbal commands (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any, it takes the Dodge action and uses its movement to avoid danger."
So all other summons state clearly that it obeys your commands. So it would make sense that the player controls those fully. But oddly enough, this one doesn't have that line in there. And when it says "functions as a controlled mount while you ride it", my interpretation means that its not a controlled mount when you don't. And if they wanted it to be just another summoned pet, wouldn't they just say that? But then also, if it's just another summoned pet--why is it magnitudes better than any other similar level summon?
I can definitely see that both sides have a case, especially because its pretty ambiguous.
So someone might ask, "Why does it have an attack if it can't attack?". I'd say it can certainly defend itself if attacked.
I've read everything I can possibly find on this topic, and JC even writes two opinions which disagree with eachother.
It seems to me that it's insanely powerful for a level 2 spell if it can attack. It can absorb at least 2 hits--possibly 3-4-5 depending on the rolls. That alone--it's like mirror image, except it can attack, teleport, heal, and carry you and equipment. Imagine getting a level 2 spell that can be cast, lasts 24 hours and can absorb 3 hits, changes your movement to 50ft, and gives you a free misty step--oh, and double your damage output.
Lets say there are 5 encounters in a day and each one lasts 3 rounds. It'll do 1d8+2 damage per hit, presuming it hits. That's an additional 97.5, average damage. If a wizard were casting scorching ray for every attack--it would average 105 damage. In terms of damage output, it's like adding an entirely new party member, let alone the damage it mitigates, and all the other ways its an awesome summon.
I'm trying very hard to maintain balance at my table, and at times there are spells like this that I think they really didn't look closely enough at.
If it's really that powerful or not, idk honestly.
But if we go strictly by RAW, "it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it (as defined in the rules on mounted combat)". Does that mean the steed loses all its actions, then? Because those rules say:
So I'm understanding you right, you're saying that unmounted, it can't take Actions or Bonus Actions from its stat block, and mounted only Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. Then, when the creature use its own abilities?
In fact, one of the Bonus Actions mentions its rider, so it's something the steed can do once you mount it:
And in any case, if you don't allow the steed to take actions when it's not mounted, it acts as it likes, and I'd say this includes taking its Actions or Bonus Actions:
Beside all this, isn't it fun to command your steed to fly and heal some of your friends while you fight your enemies?
Also, this. I'm not saying my interpretation is the only valid one, just how I'm ruling it, reading the spell, monsters, and mounted rules in context.
Neepers00 to be fair, your arguments are also good! :)
I also agree with tarodnet. But I have always thought the idea of an uncontrolled mount was a little murky. In game, someone at the table has to control the thing, and if it’s the paladin’s player, then it seems like really splitting hairs about the difference.
So, you could always, as the DM, decide that you are going to take its turn. The paladin player can say what they want it to do, but the mount has a mind of its own and may make its own decision.
I’d also add, it’s not all that strong. It has a 12 AC, 25 hp and a +1 dex save. Most attacks are going to hit it, and it’s not likely to survive most AoE spells. And, just to be clear, it can teleport or heal, not both, and only 1/day at that.
And, it’s still going to run into more mundane problems. Being large it should be harder to maneuver. The first time it encounters a 31- foot tall ladder, the thing is left behind. It’s not going to be allowed into the bar or the throne room where assassins are waiting. If every encounter is in an open field and it can always get into melee every round, then maybe your numbers make sense. But that will rarely be the case.
One thing to consider, those are only it's stats when you use a level 2 spell slot. You can upcast it to level 3 or 4 (to be technical you could even upcast it to 5, but you need to be 17th level at that point). This will buff up it's HP a bit more (+10 hp per level) and it's AC (+1 per level) and even give it a tiny bit more damage (+1 per level), so you aren't necessarily looking at 12 AC, 25 HP. Also, with the Mounted Combat Feat you get the Leap Aside feature which helps protect against AoEs. Also, when the summoner is healed the steed gets healed, which can help its longevity.
Since the steed sticks around until it dies it just makes sense to cast it using the highest level spell slot that you've got when you're in a moment of safety before you Long Rest, and if it dies, you just wait for another good opportunity and do it again.
All that said, it is certainly no combat monster. The rules for Mounted Combat seem to pretty clearly preclude it from attacking while it is being ridden (beyond the possible Fell Glare). Once its rider is incapacitated there shouldn't really be much of an issue with allowing it to use its Otherworldly Slam attack as part of protecting its rider.
The only real issue I can see is if you have a Paladin who summons it, then refuses to ride it because he wants it making its own separate attacks. That's a sort of cheesy tactic, but its attack isn't really damaging enough to cause a significant problem. Honestly the Paladin is probably hurting themselves more than helping themselves because now they aren't getting the Advantage and greater mobility that they could get through Mounted Combat.
Appreciate the feedback!
Tarod,
"So I'm understanding you right, you're saying that unmounted, it can't take Actions or Bonus Actions from its stat block,"
I'm thinking that it can, but that it would operate independently of the will of the summoner. It would avoid combat, but defend itself and likely avoid combat when not being ridden. My concern is that the steed is interpreted as all other summoned creatures--and all the other summoned creatures clearly state that they will follow the casters commands (and attack etc).
Xalthu,
"In game, someone at the table has to control the thing, and if it’s the paladin’s player, then it seems like really splitting hairs about the difference."
My interpretation is that this is much more impactful than splitting hairs. By giving the Paladin control of the horse when not being ridden, it has turned into an additional companion in the party, and alone as a combatant can nearly double the damage output of the caster. Not just damage output, but absorb several attacks. And that's not even considering all its other capabilities. As you suggested, I think it would be best for the DM to control it while unmounted, and its priority would be to survive.
As Esampson pointed out, it continues to scale upwards.
If we re-frame it, the balance issues become more clear. Let's say we take all of its abilities and turn it into a spell called "Buff". This "Buff" adds 25hp and has an AC of 12 to hit. It gives you an extra 1d8+2 attack. This "Buff" spell also gives you an extra opportunity attack. This buff spell can create an occupied space of 2x2 which can provide cover behind it and creatures cannot move through it. This buff spell allows you 50ft of movement on top of your own movement. The buff spell allows you to misty step and heal. This Buff spell will scale as you level and let you fly later on. This Buff spell can fetch things for you. It can carry things for you. This spell is always prepared and doesn't use a spell slot.
If this spell existed, what level spell would you place it? If this were a feat, would you take it?
On my end, I would place this among the most useful spells that exists. Maybe a level 5+ spell. If it were a feat, I would take it above all other feats in an instant.
Counter Arguments
"it is certainly no combat monster."
It's not a monster, but its much more significant than it appears. My concern is not while ridden, its only while not being ridden. Because its once per long rest and has 12ac and 25hp, yeah it won't last long. But it will still absorb hits, large and small, at no consequence--likely several hits. What I expect my Paladin to do is exactly what you describe--doesn't ride it and uses it as a second companion.
The damage is much more significant than it seems, doing the math, damage output increase is way above 50%. It's similar to the argument against Graze weapon mastery effect--if you miss it just a little bit of damage. But the math behind it shows that it has a significant impact in overall DPS, possibly better than any other mastery.
Which is why I think it should not be able to be fully controlled by the caster when unmounted.
It scales upwards, but the enemies do, too. That extra point of AC and 10 hp aren’t really going to matter much. Certainly it’s worth upcasting the spell. Even more so when using the 4th level slot means it can fly. But it’s not really making a big impact on the steed’s usefulness as a melee combatant.
Xalthu,
Combat balance is far more than just DPS and HP, this is part of the problem with answering this question--if adjudicators think that DPS and AC are the primary measure of combat balance, then they're missing most of the picture. There's an exponential growth of complexity when another party member is added to the team. Combat effectiveness is much more complex than saying "One more player adds 25% more capacity". It's not linear.
That horse has a full set of action economy. It can serve as a dodging machine. It's another attack every round. Its another reaction every round. It's a physical barrier in combat. It can block enemies and provide cover for allies behind it. Its speed means it can chase down distant enemies. Its teleport means it can bypass terrain and obstacles. It can also heal, which means it can revive KO'd allies.
This is why summoned creatures from casters, at the same level, cost a ton of gold (100+), require concentration, and last 1 hour. This steed is not only better than them, lasts the full day, requires no gold, no concentration, no spell slots, and has more abilities. Both are level 2--see the issue? I think its a clear oversight in the rules in terms of balance.
Without attacking independently, they're still incredibly useful.
A creature that is not being ridden is not mounted, therefore the rules for mounted combat wouldn't apply. Mount isn't a tag applied to certain creatures intrinsically, it's a tag applied based on context, specifically that creature A has mounted creature B.
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RAW, Otherworldly Steed is a monster and has all the actions available to a monster unless stated otherwise. Neither the stat block or Find Steed mention any restriction on the actions. As such, it is RAW unrestricted. In fact, the spell description says that "If you have the Incapacitated condition, the steed takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you." It would be very difficult to do so in combat if it was not able to take normal combat actions.
No, I don't. Summon Beast is a 2nd level Druid Spell that requires concentration and a 200 GP material component, that is not consumed by the spell. The Bestial Spirit has its full set of actions available if the caster commands it (no action required). The druid can first cast this spell at 3rd level.
A Paladin can first cast Find Steed at character level 5. You aren't comparing two 2nd level spells. You are comparing a character level 5 ability to a character level 3 ability.
Find Steed is more akin to Find Familiar and some other spells that have been previewed in UA. Find Familiar has a long casting time (if you are not a Pact of the Chain Warlock) and a costly but mostly trivial material component (10 GP). Unlike Find Steed, it can be cast as a Ritual without a spell slot (but Paladins can cast once per day without a spell slot but this means no upcasting). The Familiar also has a full action set apart from the [actions]Attack[/actions] action. A Warlock's familiar can be particularly potent. Find Steed is closer to Find Familiar that any of the summon spells. It is one level higher (minimum), is not a ritual, has no material component, and does not restrict the Steed from attacking.
Also, look at Create Undead for a higher level version. In this case, one or more Undead creatures can be commanded with a Bonus Action, but on subsequent turns, they continue following that order until the task is complete. Again, there is a relatively small material cost (150 GP, not consumed, is pretty small at 11th level).
No, I don't think there is a problem. I think the choice of spells for the comparison you were making is misleading.
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My houserulings.
Smite,
"RAW, Otherworldly Steed is a monster and has all the actions available to a monster unless stated otherwise."
How is this RAW? My point though is not that it can't attack--it still has all the available actions, my point of contention is whether or not the Paladin has full control over it on his turn (without riding it) and dictates what it does. Other summons clearly state "Will follow your commands", the Familiar clearly states "cannot attack", it's clearly outlined in those cases.
Mounts can be controlled or independent. As the spell states, " it functions as a controlled mount while you ride it ". This is telling me that the condition at which it is controlled is dependent on it being ridden. At which point it is independent, and an independent mount acts on its own volition, not at the command of the summoner. My issue is about it being controlled as a summon would be while not being ridden.
In terms of equity of power: it still requires a 200gp object, it still requires concentration, and it lasts only an hour, and clearly states "obeys your commands". That it doesn't consume the 200gp object doesn't change the fact that this still requires concentration and lasts only an hour, and consumes a spell slot! All of which are clear limitations that Find Steed doesn't have.
"You aren't comparing two 2nd level spells."
No, I'm literally comparing 2nd level spells. The level at which a character gets it is not relevant. A 9th level ranger gets level 3 spells, a 5th level wizard gets level 3 spells. Spells are not level abilities.
"Find steed is closer to find familiar"
What are you talking about? No its not, not even close. You can't ride a familiar. It can't carry all your equipment. It doesn't change your movement speed. It doesn't occupy a 2x2 square. It doesn't provide cover. It doesn't have an attack, it doesn't have opportunity attacks. It can't heal you, it can't teleport you, and doesn't cause frighten. A familiar has 1-3hp, the steed has 25 to start and scales upward. A Familiar has a CR of 0. These are not remotely close.
It's far, far better than Summon Beast, but has none of the restrictions. That's why it doesn't make sense that it behaves essentially as another party member under the control of the Paladin.
Actions (MM 2025)
It is a "loyal steed", it is "an ally to you and your allies", and " If you have the Incapacitated condition, the steed takes its turn immediately after yours and acts independently, focusing on protecting you." If you are not riding it, it is not a "controlled mount". It is loyal enough and can communicate with the Paladin that it is reasonable, in my opinion, to allow the player to control the steed as a second character. There is nothing stating that the steed must obey any commands you give it, so it may decide to take a different action that what you instruct.
If you aren't riding your mount, it's not a mount. It's a loyal allied creature.
Find Familiar and Create Undead don't require concentration. Create Undead needs to be recast daily to retain control, but if you don't need to control them, or have another method to do so, you don't need a spell slot the next day. Find Familiar doesn't require a spell slot. In both cases, the material costs are trivial.
Summon spells are completely different beasts (no pun intended) and comparing them is invalid. Summoned creatures are significantly nastier if they are meant for combat. With a level 2 spell slot (a 3rd level caster facing CR 3 enemies), a Bestial Spirit has AC 13, 30 HP, Darkvision, and 1 attack dealing 1d8 + 4 + your spellcasting modifier. If you pick a flying beast, it only has 20 HP but it flies (Find Steed needs a 4th level slot for this) and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity when moving out of a creature's reach.
By contrast, an Otherwolrdly Steed will be still using a 2nd level slot, but will be in CR 5 combat with AC 12, 25 HP, no special vision, and 1 attack dealing 1d8 + your spellcasting modifier.
Scaling up to a 4th level spell slot Otherworldly Steed, you'd have AC 14, 45 HP, still no special vision, and still only 1 attack dealing 1d8 + your spellcasting modifier. A Bestial Spirit with a 4th level slot will have AC 15, 40 HP (30 HP if flying), Darkvision, and 2 attacks per action. However, again, that Steed will be in CR 13 combats while the Bestial Spirit will be in CR 7 encounters. To match the CR, A Bestial Spirit with a level 7 slot (Druid level 13+) will be AC 18, 55 HP (45 for Air), Darkvision, and 3 attacks per action each dealing 1d8 + 4 + your spellcasting modifier (most likely 1d8 + 9).
As a combatant, Otherworldly Steed is much weaker than a Bestial Spirit when examined from a purely mechanical perspective and it's not even taking into account that a Paladin's spell casting modifier is will typically fall well behind a Druid's.
It's absolutely relevant. The encounters that the spells will be used in is absolutely relevant to the balance of the spell. You cannot compare a Paladin only spell to a spell of the same level available to a pure spellcaster. They will 100% be balanced differently and will be balanced based on the character level at which the spell can be accessed.
You are vastly undervaluing both Find Familiar and Summon Beast and overvaluing Find Steed.
What role do you play in your group? Are you the DM, the Paladin, or a player who is not the Paladin?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Unless I've missed some clarification, that is a bit murky. While a mount is allowed to Dodge each round it is not clear whether that protects the rider or merely makes the mount harder to hit (and improves some of its saves).
It seems clear to me.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Smite,
I appreciate your feedback as food for thought, but I don't see a convincing argument. Part of me deciding on what to do with this is others' feedback.
Re: All monsters taking all actions
I mean if you strictly go raw, you would adjudicate that the Shrieker, (a mushroom) can attack, dodge, dash, lay prone, help, hide, and utilize a tool. Or that a zombie can influence, it can study, it can deceive, and perform. RAW makes sense in most cases, but there are almost always cases where exceptions exist. But that's not my point. I've said that the animal will still get its standard array of actions, and the sticking point is whether or not the Paladin controls it like a drone when he is not riding it.
"It is a loyal steed so the player can control it completely as an additional companion in battle".
Nope, doesn't make sense. So you're defining your logic in this case based on your interpretation of an undefined 'loyal steed' and therefore it can be remote controlled by the Paladin. And you're arbitrarily deciding that 'loyal' means 'remote controllable'. Could you define loyal? Does loyal mean "Disregards personal safety and will fight to the death in all circumstances?" does loyal mean "Has no independent will"? What precisely do you mean by 'loyal'?
Communication
Ok, so---it's stated they communicate telepathically, so they can communicate. So then what degree of command can this horse understand? "Move 20 feet west!" "Fetch me a beer!" "Tell my friend to come help me by stomping your feet 3 times.". "Go attack that dragon!". How do you determine the communication capacity? Steeds, don't do those things, regardless of how loyal they are. My interpretation of this would start with "What can a normal horse do?". That communication is telepathic doesn't mean that the quality of the understanding is any different than verbal. So I would think "What orders could a loyal steed understand verbally?"
"There is nothing stating that the steed must obey any commands you give it, so it may decide to take a different action that what you instruct. "
Now you're disagreeing with yourself. You also say "it is reasonable, in my opinion, to allow the player to control the steed ".
These are contradictory. Telling an animal to do something and it doesn't do it, is not control. So make up your mind--can it be controlled or not when its not being ridden? Because I agree with you on the first part, the Paladin can ask it to do whatever it wants, but the steed is independent, and can do whatever it wants, which also means the Paladin has NO control over the mount when not mounted. If I were to then adjudicate the will of the horse, I would certainly say self-preservation is the highest priority, which means running away from danger.
Comparisons to Create undead and Find Familiar
You're missing something fundamental here, comparing only what is similar and then not comparing or discussing the array of ways they're not remotely similar. It's like saying "A pizza and an apple are the same thing, because you can eat both of them!". You're comparing a 6th level spell, Create Undead, to a 2nd level spell? What?
Then you're comparing summoned creatures stats HP, AC, and Attack, and saying that "Otherwolrdly Steed will be still using a 2nd level slot" (?)--it doesn't use a spell slot at all. You understand that value is more than those things? smh. Lemme spell this out here:
Can it heal you? Steed = yes. Beast = no.
Can it misty step? Steed = yes Beast= no.
Can it carry your things? Steed = yes Beast = no
Can you ride it? Steed = yes Beast = no.
Can it revive a downed ally? Steed = yes Beast = no
Does it last 24 hours? Steed = yes Beast = no
Does it require NO concentration? Steed = yes Beast = no
Does it require NO spell slot? Steed = yes Beast = no
Does it require NO material component worth 200gp? Steed = yes Beast = no
Can you equip it with plate armor for an AC of 18? Steed = yes Beast = no
Can you tell your plate armored steed to dodge every round with an effective AC of 23? Steed = yes Beast =no
And then you go "But the beastial spirit has 1ac more, 5 more hp, and can do more damage! It's therefore superior!" bruh. smh.
"You cannot compare a Paladin only spell to a spell of the same level available to a pure spellcaster. "
(?) What? I'm not sure why you don't see this. Spell levels are based on spell power. It has nothing to do with the level at which a class gets it. You understand that a Paladin is a hyrbrid class right? The reason it gets a level 2 spell, which is equivalent to all level 2 spells, at level 5, is because the Paladin has other things that make it powerful. Giving a hybrid class spells at the same level as a pure caster would overpower the class.
I do appreciate your perspective, but they're virtually all short-sighted. I'm a DM, and I pay very close attention to balance and fairness.
I’m not going to quote, because that was a lot but I’ll say a few things.
A typical warhorse has a 2 int. This one has a 6, so it substantially smarter.
an 8. It’s as smart as most of the fighters and barbarians in the party (considering how commonly int is a dump stat, it’s as smart as many characters that aren’t a wizard or artificer). So unless you’re going to start ruling 8 int characters can’t understand what 20’ west means, the mount should be able to.Really, the start of your question, what can a normal horse do, is flawed. This thing isn’t a horse at all, it’s a spirit that is horse-shaped; it’s not a normal horse.The spirit part also gets to the loyalty area. You can’t judge the actions of a summoned magical spirit by the standards of what a mundane horse might do. For example, the thing doesn’t fight to the death because it doesn’t die. It just returns home and waits to be summoned again.
On taking actions, cherry picking a couple extreme examples doesn’t prove your point. First off, technically shreikers and zombies can do those things. The same way a 3’ tall halfling has the same reach as a 7’ tall goliath. It’s a game and there are game rules that are designed to make it fun, not to be logical. But even if we accept there may be reasons a DM wouldn’t allow a given creature to perform a given action, this one doesn’t fall into those categories.
But overall, I think we’ve reached a point where it’s clear you weren’t looking for advice or opinions, you were looking for people to agree with you, and it seems people don’t. You wanted to hear it’s not permitted by RAW, which everyone else says it is. Then the argument transitioned to overpowered, and everyone says it’s really not. All that said, you’re the DM, you can impose whatever house rules you like at your table.
Yeah, as the above poster says, dodge would clearly only apply to the mount. The better thing to do is have the mount disengage and ride away. At that point the mount doesn’t draw an OA because it disengaged . Also the rider doesn’t draw an OA because it’s not using its own movement. But that’s all by design and part of the extra mobility being mounted gives the rider.