Just wondering if the damage from Envenom Weapons only triggers from the initial saving throw of Cunning Strike (Poison) or if it triggers every time the target makes a saving throw to end the Poisoned?
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
With Envenom Weapons when you use the Poison option of your Cunning Strike, the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw.
Yeah, I figured they would've said something more like, "When the initial saving throw is failed," instead of 'whenever' if they'd meant that, but just wanted someone else to confirm it so I could be certain. Thanks.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
"When you use the Poison option of your Cunning Strike, the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw."
"The saving throw", to me, represents the saving throw from the Poison ability, not the saving throw to end the poisoned condition. I can see the other reading as well, but I think the intention is that it deals damage once per attack.
If that were the intention, it would say that it only applied if the target failed the initial save. As it doesn't, it applies for the entire duration that the target is poisoned.
Because an extra 2d6 poison damage on a single failed con save would be incredibly weak for a 13th level class ability.
"When you use the Poison option of your Cunning Strike, the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw."
"The saving throw", to me, represents the saving throw from the Poison ability, not the saving throw to end the poisoned condition. I can see the other reading as well, but I think the intention is that it deals damage once per attack.
The Cunning Strike (Poison) feature says it repeat the save.... so the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw with Envenom Weapons .
Poison (Cost: 1d6). You add a toxin to your strike, forcing the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Poisoned condition for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the Poisoned target repeats the save, ending the effect on itself on a success. To use this effect, you must have a Poisoner's Kit on your person.
Particularly since the net will only be 1d6 when you account for the cost to use the Cunning Strike.
On the first turn.
If you leave, Plaguescarred's interpretation is you will get an additional 2D6 damage per turn (provided they continue to fail the save) with no opportunity cost.
If you are facing multiple enemies, use this on each foe so turn 1, it is an extra 1D6 damage (1st target), turn 2 it is 3D6 (1D6 2nd target, 2D6 1st target), turn 3 it is 5D6 and so on. It's an edge case and you probably want to be focusing Sneak Attack on downing one enemy, but still.
By contrast, a Paladin's Radiant Strikes is a once per turn 1d8 at level 11. This isn't just a net +1D6. It's a net +1D6 on an ability that applies an unpleasant condition. It's tempting to say that the damage should be higher because it's tied to a saving throw but the saving throw is for the poison ability and this feature adds 2D6 damage so it is already higher because it is tied to a saving throw. Both are abilities that you can do all day once per turn.
The Cunning Strike (Poison) feature says it repeat the save.... so the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw with Envenom Weapons .
I completely understand your position and do not dispute it as a valid interpretation. I just disagree with it.
Yes, my point was that it doesn’t make sense as a one-off since you’d only be gaining 1d6 off the feature, rather than the substantial damage you’d get from an ongoing effect.
Yes, my point was that it doesn’t make sense as a one-off since you’d only be gaining 1d6 off the feature, rather than the substantial damage you’d get from an ongoing effect.
Yes, my point was that it doesn’t make sense as a one-off since you’d only be gaining 1d6 off the feature, rather than the substantial damage you’d get from an ongoing effect.
The feature gives you 2D6.
But you spend 1d6 to use it, so the net damage gain would only be 1d6 if it only occurred on the initial save.
By contrast, a Paladin's Radiant Strikes is a once per turn 1d8 at level 11. This isn't just a net +1D6. It's a net +1D6 on an ability that applies an unpleasant condition. It's tempting to say that the damage should be higher because it's tied to a saving throw but the saving throw is for the poison ability and this feature adds 2D6 damage so it is already higher because it is tied to a saving throw. Both are abilities that you can do all day once per turn.
Radiant Strikes has no such limitation.
Level 11: Radiant Strikes
Your strikes now carry supernatural power. When you hit a target with an attack roll using a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike, the target takes an extra 1d8 Radiant damage.
It applies to every successful melee weapon or unarmed attack roll, with no limit on how many times per turn it can be used.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, my point was that it doesn’t make sense as a one-off since you’d only be gaining 1d6 off the feature, rather than the substantial damage you’d get from an ongoing effect.
The feature gives you 2D6.
But you spend 1d6 to use it, so the net damage gain would only be 1d6 if it only occurred on the initial save.
You expend 1D6 to cause the poisoned condition. The feature adds 2D6. You are not paying 1D6 to get 2D6 alone. It is an upgrade of 2D6 extra damage.
By contrast, a Paladin's Radiant Strikes is a once per turn 1d8 at level 11. This isn't just a net +1D6. It's a net +1D6 on an ability that applies an unpleasant condition. It's tempting to say that the damage should be higher because it's tied to a saving throw but the saving throw is for the poison ability and this feature adds 2D6 damage so it is already higher because it is tied to a saving throw. Both are abilities that you can do all day once per turn.
Radiant Strikes has no such limitation.
My mistake. I think I was thinking of Horizon Walker Ranger's Planar Warrior (which is limited to once per turn because it costs a Bonus Action).
Except the Horizon Walker one automatically procs on hit; Poison requires both a hit and a failed save, as well as the opportunity cost of using it over other options. Spin as hard as you like, an extra 3 average damage on an attack at 13th level compared to what they'd get if they didn't use the Poison feature in the first place is not a 3rd tier buff.
And the Horizon Walker one is objectively bad compared to the ones on Fey Wanderer, Hunter, etc. The action economy alone makes it low tier.
Except the Horizon Walker one automatically procs on hit; Poison requires both a hit and a failed save, as well as the opportunity cost of using it over other options. Spin as hard as you like, an extra 3 average damage on an attack at 13th level compared to what they'd get if they didn't use the Poison feature in the first place is not a 3rd tier buff.
And the Horizon Walker one is objectively bad compared to the ones on Fey Wanderer, Hunter, etc. The action economy alone makes it low tier.
Horizon Walker requires a hit but only increases the damage by 1D8 comparing 11th level to 3rd. Envenom Weapon affects the existing requirement to hit and fail a save by adding 2D6 poison damage and that poison damage can potentially be increased by a vulnerability (Only applies to one monster so far) while ignoring resistances (74 creatures).
It doesn't matter if Horizon Walker is low, mid, or high tier. The interpretation that it is once and not damage per turn is consistent with the Horizon Walker's ability. Barbarian Path of the Beast at 10th deals 2D12 on a failed save, resistances apply normally.
Not every ability needs to be S Tier and the interpretation is more consistent with other design language. When these 2014 subclasses are updated or a SAC is published on the topic, we can reevaluate.
Just wondering if the damage from Envenom Weapons only triggers from the initial saving throw of Cunning Strike (Poison) or if it triggers every time the target makes a saving throw to end the Poisoned?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
With Envenom Weapons when you use the Poison option of your Cunning Strike, the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw.
Yeah, I figured they would've said something more like, "When the initial saving throw is failed," instead of 'whenever' if they'd meant that, but just wanted someone else to confirm it so I could be certain. Thanks.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I read that as the initial save only.
"When you use the Poison option of your Cunning Strike, the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw."
"The saving throw", to me, represents the saving throw from the Poison ability, not the saving throw to end the poisoned condition. I can see the other reading as well, but I think the intention is that it deals damage once per attack.
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If that were the intention, it would say that it only applied if the target failed the initial save. As it doesn't, it applies for the entire duration that the target is poisoned.
Because an extra 2d6 poison damage on a single failed con save would be incredibly weak for a 13th level class ability.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Particularly since the net will only be 1d6 when you account for the cost to use the Cunning Strike.
The Cunning Strike (Poison) feature says it repeat the save.... so the target also takes 2d6 Poison damage whenever it fails the saving throw with Envenom Weapons .
On the first turn.
If you leave, Plaguescarred's interpretation is you will get an additional 2D6 damage per turn (provided they continue to fail the save) with no opportunity cost.
If you are facing multiple enemies, use this on each foe so turn 1, it is an extra 1D6 damage (1st target), turn 2 it is 3D6 (1D6 2nd target, 2D6 1st target), turn 3 it is 5D6 and so on. It's an edge case and you probably want to be focusing Sneak Attack on downing one enemy, but still.
By contrast, a Paladin's Radiant Strikes is a once per turn 1d8 at level 11. This isn't just a net +1D6. It's a net +1D6 on an ability that applies an unpleasant condition. It's tempting to say that the damage should be higher because it's tied to a saving throw but the saving throw is for the poison ability and this feature adds 2D6 damage so it is already higher because it is tied to a saving throw. Both are abilities that you can do all day once per turn.
I completely understand your position and do not dispute it as a valid interpretation. I just disagree with it.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Yes, my point was that it doesn’t make sense as a one-off since you’d only be gaining 1d6 off the feature, rather than the substantial damage you’d get from an ongoing effect.
The feature gives you 2D6.
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My houserulings.
But you spend 1d6 to use it, so the net damage gain would only be 1d6 if it only occurred on the initial save.
To use Cunning Strike (Poison) cost 1d6 if Envenom Weapons was only dealing 2d6 once then it would mean 1d6 instead, very weak for L13 feature as 6thLyranGuard said.
Radiant Strikes has no such limitation.
It applies to every successful melee weapon or unarmed attack roll, with no limit on how many times per turn it can be used.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You expend 1D6 to cause the poisoned condition. The feature adds 2D6. You are not paying 1D6 to get 2D6 alone. It is an upgrade of 2D6 extra damage.
My mistake. I think I was thinking of Horizon Walker Ranger's Planar Warrior (which is limited to once per turn because it costs a Bonus Action).
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Yes, and the Horizon Walker's Planar Warrior ability is A) something that kicks in at 3rd level and B) often considered to be underpowered.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Underpowered or not, it kicks in at 3rd level just like Poison and upgrades by 1d8 at 11th level compared to upgrading by 2D6 with the Assassin.
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Except the Horizon Walker one automatically procs on hit; Poison requires both a hit and a failed save, as well as the opportunity cost of using it over other options. Spin as hard as you like, an extra 3 average damage on an attack at 13th level compared to what they'd get if they didn't use the Poison feature in the first place is not a 3rd tier buff.
And the Horizon Walker one is objectively bad compared to the ones on Fey Wanderer, Hunter, etc. The action economy alone makes it low tier.
Horizon Walker requires a hit but only increases the damage by 1D8 comparing 11th level to 3rd. Envenom Weapon affects the existing requirement to hit and fail a save by adding 2D6 poison damage and that poison damage can potentially be increased by a vulnerability (Only applies to one monster so far) while ignoring resistances (74 creatures).
It doesn't matter if Horizon Walker is low, mid, or high tier. The interpretation that it is once and not damage per turn is consistent with the Horizon Walker's ability. Barbarian Path of the Beast at 10th deals 2D12 on a failed save, resistances apply normally.
Not every ability needs to be S Tier and the interpretation is more consistent with other design language. When these 2014 subclasses are updated or a SAC is published on the topic, we can reevaluate.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.