The way i read it a grappled creature can be moved when the grappler moves i.e from one square to another.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it.
I suppose you could pay 10 feet per hex you pull them through even though you are not going anywhere?
Spending movement doesn't mean you're necessarily moving. For example when you spend movement to right yourself while Prone you're not moving i.e from one square to another.
The way i read it a grappled creature can be moved when the grappler moves i.e from one square to another.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it.
I'd say this is the RAW answer.
If not, and just leaving a random thought here, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements (your reach is 10 feet greater than normal), it'd be possible to move the creature Grappled by the Monk within or around their reach (15 feet) for free.
I also rule that the distance you can drag or carry a grappled creature is commensurate to the distance moved by the grappler.
Move X feet = Drag X feet
So for example every 5 feet space or square a grappler moves, it can drag or carry a grappled creature an equivalent distance of 5 feet space/square, thus preventing disproportionate ping-pong in and out of an area of effect etc...
I also rule that the distance you can drag or carry a grappled creature is commensurate to the distance moved by the grappler. Move X feet = Drag X feet
That's pretty sensible.
With that ruling, you can do what OP wants (with extra steps): 0) with opponent grappled 1 square north of you 1) move 1 square south, dragging opponent 1 square south 2) move 1 square north (back to where you were), while pulling/pushing opponent 1 square south (effectively swapping spaces with them) 3) you are back to where you started, and opponent is grappled 1 square south of you.
Maybe, instead of using movement to move them around you, you could use a bonus action to make a contested athletics check, moving the grappled creature to a square within 5 feet of you? That's obviously homebrew, but I think it might work well.
RAW you can't actually push a grappled creature via movement alone. You would have to succeed on an (additional) unarmed strike attack while using the "shove" option.
It's interesting that a "carry" option is allowed via grappling though. You should be able to turn around while carrying something without using movement. However, to me, carrying something can only be done if you occupy the same space although I don't have time now to dive into the weeds on whether that is written anywhere or even whether it is even allowed to occupy another creature’s space for the purpose of initiating a "carry".
Furthermore, carrying a creature brings up the additional annoyance for the DM of having to determine the weight of things and how much of your carrying capacity are you already using and so on.
For the most part, if you want a grappled creature to your north to end up being to your south, you will have to walk around that creature instead of trying to initiate some sort of forced movement on that creature.
I also rule that the distance you can drag or carry a grappled creature is commensurate to the distance moved by the grappler.
Move X feet = Drag X feet
So for example every 5 feet space or square a grappler moves, it can drag or carry a grappled creature an equivalent distance of 5 feet space/square, thus preventing disproportionate ping-pong in and out of an area of effect etc...
By your reasoning it is nearly impossible to drag somebody off a cliff or into a fire without going over the cliff yourself.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
By your reasoning it is nearly impossible to drag somebody off a cliff or into a fire without going over the cliff yourself.
The easiest way to do this by RAW: 1) grapple opponent 2) orbit opponent (costs movement but not double movement) until opponent is between you and the cliff. 3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Do you have any rules support for this last step?
As written you would need to make a Shove attack (which explicitly allows pushing) in that situation since grapple forced movement only allows dragging or carrying.
The main purpose of the grapple mechanic is to prevent your enemy from moving, although some specific forced movement is also described. The main option to initiate forced movement is the Shove attack.
By your reasoning it is nearly impossible to drag somebody off a cliff or into a fire without going over the cliff yourself.
The easiest way to do this by RAW: 1) grapple opponent 2) orbit opponent (costs movement but not double movement) until opponent is between you and the cliff. 3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Please diagram this =)
You cannot shove them or you lose your grapple.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Do you have any rules support for this last step? As written you would need to make a Shove attack (which explicitly allows shoving) in that situation since grapple forced movement only allows dragging or carrying.
The pedantic RAW answer is, in fact, you "carry" them. (I just used the term "bulldozing" to be evocative, but honestly I see no problem with "dragging" someone in "front" of you, either.)
They don't provide any particular mechanical limits for either dragging or carrying a animate opponent. And the grappling rules do not provide any exceptions that allow you to occupy the same square as your opponent. Ergo, when carrying them (or dragging, for that matter), they'll be in a different square. No reason they can't be in the square to your "front" or "side" --- not that there are rules for facing, anyway.
Realistically, grappling should always be in the same square. DnD does not approach this at all, which is fine for how streamlined the grappling rules are.
Were I the DM, I'd happily rule that you can pull them into your square to carry them (costs 10ft movement) and dump them in an adjacent square (costs 10ft movement), including the one off a cliff. But then, I know enough judo to think like that ;)
FWIW, you can kinda sorta interpret the "Moving around Other Creatures" rules to work like that, since you can occupy the same space in the middle of your move, and only need to be in a different space at the end. (And being in the same space as an opponent is difficult terrain, which would line up with the doubled movement costs for moving-them-while-grappling-them.) I wouldn't make this argument were I rules-lawyering, however.
I’d allow moving a grappled creature in a circle around the grappler if the grappler spends 10’ of their move per square (5’ with the grappler feat if conditions are met). But I would not allow cutting corners, so on a grid if they started north, they could be moved northeast>east>southeast, but that would be all — assuming a 30’ movement speed. Though I also like kencleary’s point about moving them through your square and out the other side for 20’ of movement.
I’d say “drag” isn’t a defined term and is mostly just flavor/descriptive — this isn’t 4e with its push/pull/slide definitions. Additionally, things can be dragged sideways, they don’t have to be behind.
3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Do you have any rules support for this last step? As written you would need to make a Shove attack (which explicitly allows shoving) in that situation since grapple forced movement only allows dragging or carrying.
Were I the DM, I'd happily rule that you can pull them into your square to carry them (costs 10ft movement) and dump them in an adjacent square (costs 10ft movement), including the one off a cliff. But then, I know enough judo to think like that ;)
I'm pretty sure the rules say you can't occupy the same space unless there is a size difference, but I know what you're saying.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Regarding movement, there's also a SAC that talks about it:
Can you move through the space of a Prone enemy?
You can move through the space of an enemy only if that enemy (A) has the Incapacitated condition, (B) is a Tiny creature, or (C) is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. The Prone condition doesn’t override this.
By your reasoning it is nearly impossible to drag somebody off a cliff or into a fire without going over the cliff yourself.
The easiest way to do this by RAW: 1) grapple opponent 2) orbit opponent (costs movement but not double movement) until opponent is between you and the cliff. 3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Please diagram this =)
You cannot shove them or you lose your grapple.
I'd say it's something like this (blue the grappler, red the target), and the last step IMO is possible because the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required):
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Turning in a circle takes no movement.
Grappling and moving with them doubles your move cost.
How much movement does it cost to spin your grapple target around your body? From say the north of you to the south of you..
I suppose you could pay 10 feet per hex you pull them through even though you are not going anywhere?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The rules are silent on this (AFAIK) so technically it would be free I guess.
This is probably what I'd rule, not liking having it be free due to a technicality.
The way i read it a grappled creature can be moved when the grappler moves i.e from one square to another.
Spending movement doesn't mean you're necessarily moving. For example when you spend movement to right yourself while Prone you're not moving i.e from one square to another.
I'd say this is the RAW answer.
If not, and just leaving a random thought here, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements (your reach is 10 feet greater than normal), it'd be possible to move the creature Grappled by the Monk within or around their reach (15 feet) for free.
I also rule that the distance you can drag or carry a grappled creature is commensurate to the distance moved by the grappler.
Move X feet = Drag X feet
So for example every 5 feet space or square a grappler moves, it can drag or carry a grappled creature an equivalent distance of 5 feet space/square, thus preventing disproportionate ping-pong in and out of an area of effect etc...
That's pretty sensible.
With that ruling, you can do what OP wants (with extra steps):
0) with opponent grappled 1 square north of you
1) move 1 square south, dragging opponent 1 square south
2) move 1 square north (back to where you were), while pulling/pushing opponent 1 square south (effectively swapping spaces with them)
3) you are back to where you started, and opponent is grappled 1 square south of you.
A Roper has this interesting Action to pull a Grappled creature:
Maybe, instead of using movement to move them around you, you could use a bonus action to make a contested athletics check, moving the grappled creature to a square within 5 feet of you? That's obviously homebrew, but I think it might work well.
RAW you can't actually push a grappled creature via movement alone. You would have to succeed on an (additional) unarmed strike attack while using the "shove" option.
It's interesting that a "carry" option is allowed via grappling though. You should be able to turn around while carrying something without using movement. However, to me, carrying something can only be done if you occupy the same space although I don't have time now to dive into the weeds on whether that is written anywhere or even whether it is even allowed to occupy another creature’s space for the purpose of initiating a "carry".
Furthermore, carrying a creature brings up the additional annoyance for the DM of having to determine the weight of things and how much of your carrying capacity are you already using and so on.
For the most part, if you want a grappled creature to your north to end up being to your south, you will have to walk around that creature instead of trying to initiate some sort of forced movement on that creature.
By your reasoning it is nearly impossible to drag somebody off a cliff or into a fire without going over the cliff yourself.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The easiest way to do this by RAW:
1) grapple opponent
2) orbit opponent (costs movement but not double movement) until opponent is between you and the cliff.
3) bulldoze opponent until they are off the cliff (costs double movement) and let go / don’t follow them down.
Yes if you drag someone they come after you.
However carrying is also allowed (or "bulldoze" as @kenclary put it).
Do you have any rules support for this last step?
As written you would need to make a Shove attack (which explicitly allows pushing) in that situation since grapple forced movement only allows dragging or carrying.
The main purpose of the grapple mechanic is to prevent your enemy from moving, although some specific forced movement is also described. The main option to initiate forced movement is the Shove attack.
Please diagram this =)
You cannot shove them or you lose your grapple.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The pedantic RAW answer is, in fact, you "carry" them. (I just used the term "bulldozing" to be evocative, but honestly I see no problem with "dragging" someone in "front" of you, either.)
They don't provide any particular mechanical limits for either dragging or carrying a animate opponent. And the grappling rules do not provide any exceptions that allow you to occupy the same square as your opponent. Ergo, when carrying them (or dragging, for that matter), they'll be in a different square. No reason they can't be in the square to your "front" or "side" --- not that there are rules for facing, anyway.
Realistically, grappling should always be in the same square. DnD does not approach this at all, which is fine for how streamlined the grappling rules are.
Were I the DM, I'd happily rule that you can pull them into your square to carry them (costs 10ft movement) and dump them in an adjacent square (costs 10ft movement), including the one off a cliff. But then, I know enough judo to think like that ;)
FWIW, you can kinda sorta interpret the "Moving around Other Creatures" rules to work like that, since you can occupy the same space in the middle of your move, and only need to be in a different space at the end. (And being in the same space as an opponent is difficult terrain, which would line up with the doubled movement costs for moving-them-while-grappling-them.) I wouldn't make this argument were I rules-lawyering, however.
I’d allow moving a grappled creature in a circle around the grappler if the grappler spends 10’ of their move per square (5’ with the grappler feat if conditions are met). But I would not allow cutting corners, so on a grid if they started north, they could be moved northeast>east>southeast, but that would be all — assuming a 30’ movement speed.
Though I also like kencleary’s point about moving them through your square and out the other side for 20’ of movement.
I’d say “drag” isn’t a defined term and is mostly just flavor/descriptive — this isn’t 4e with its push/pull/slide definitions. Additionally, things can be dragged sideways, they don’t have to be behind.
I'm pretty sure the rules say you can't occupy the same space unless there is a size difference, but I know what you're saying.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Regarding movement, there's also a SAC that talks about it:
I'd say it's something like this (blue the grappler, red the target), and the last step IMO is possible because the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required):