3: The 3e note in post 3 on the first page was pretty bad, too. If the multiclassing slots thing existed in 3e, you could still prepare spells with those slots using metamagic (since most metamagic options require you to prepare/cast them with a higher-level slot).
That was a comment about how examples were treated in 3e rules analysis - as non-entities. They were never used as authorities on how the rules worked (and they were not infrequently wrong).
And I am arguing for using the rules for preparing spells as two separate single classes. I just see no textual reason to pretend characters don't have the slots they actually have. The class rules don't tell you to use the table for spell slots to determine your slots for level of spell you prepared, but they do tell you to use the table for how many spells you can prepare. That's a significant textual difference. So you're a Bard 2 with level 3 slots? The rules as written can handle that.
3.x was more precise rules in its wording than 5e. 5e uses more natural language and the same assumptions do not apply. The rules state that when you prepare spells, a Bard 2 prepares them as a Bard 2 and Bard 2 cannot prepare 2nd or 3rd level spells.
It could, if it had 2nd or 3rd level slots, according to Bard's own rules.
... it has 2nd and 3rd level slots.
You're all assuming that you ignore the multiclass spell slots with that text. But it never says to ignore the spell slots multiclassing gives you. You also have 5 hit dice, even though a bard 2 doesn't have 5 hit dice.
I'm assuming "Prepare spells as a single-class bard" just means 'go follow the rules for preparing spells in the bard class (because that's the rules on preparing spells as a single-class bard). You're level 2 whenever those rules require you to know that'. The table is only part of the 'prepare spells rules' when the 'prepare spells rules' explicitly mention the table. Notably, the prepare spell rules never invoke the bard table for spell slots, so you've been directed to use rules that invoke spell slots you have, not that you would have according to the bard table.
The multiclassing restricts you to determining the spells available as if you had only your bard levels, AS IF YOU WERE A SINGLE-CLASSED MEMBER OF THAT CLASS. A single-classed level 2 Bard cannot prepare 2nd or 3rd level spells.
You cannot pick and choose the rules when you are arguing RAW. You have already ceded that RAI is in line with that interpretation and the rules clarify with an example that they mean a Bard 2 can only prepare 1st levels spells. So what are you actually hoping to gain from this discussion? What is the point of trying to excise part of the rules as "an example" and not a clarifying statement so you can continue to argue that an interpretation, that you say is contrary to RAI but the only logical reading of RAW.
I'm not picking and choosing, I'm using the rules it told me to use. The rules for preparing spellsand no other rules.
The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Bard levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Bard Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional spells from the Bard spell list until the number of spells on your list matches the number on the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For example, if you're a level 3 Bard, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination.
If another Bard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Bard spells for you.
Changing Your Prepared Spells. Whenever you gain a Bard level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Bard spell for which you have spell slots.
That's the entirety of the rules for preparing spells (for bards). It doesn't tell you to limit your slots to that of a level 2 Bard or build a level 2 Bard, it tells you to prepare spells as a single-classed bard, that is, follow those specific rules. (And since those rules nowhere reference the bard spell slots per level, you don't reference the bard spell slots per level. You use the spell slots you have.)
As to what do i hope to gain? Why do i have to hope to gain anything? An exploration of what is written is its own reward. (And to be honest, playing the multiclass rules as I read it seems both valid and interesting - more interesting (and playable) than the other interpretation, and i can't see a single combination that's more powerful than stuff you can otherwise do).
That's the entirety of the rules for preparing spells (for bards).
But you're not a Bard. You're a Multiclassed Bard and therefore those rules applies and those limit you. Those are the rules you are willfully ignoring.
That's the entirety of the rules for preparing spells (for bards).
But you're not a Bard. You're a Multiclassed Bard and therefore those rules applies and those limit you. Those are the rules you are willfully ignoring.
Which rules? Why?
The multiclass rules say I prepare spells as a single class character (bard). So i use the prepare spells rules, and only the prepare spells rules, as a single class bard. That doesn't say i use bard spell slots, so I don't do that.
Where does it tell me to use any rules beside the prepare spells rules for this purpose? (Rules text, not examples)
For example, if you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, you count as a level 5 character when determining your spell slots, counting all your levels as a Sorcerer and half your Ranger levels. As shown in the Multiclass Spellcaster table, you have four level 1 spell slots, three level 2 slots, and two level 3 slots. However, you can’t prepare any level 3 spells, nor can you prepare any level 2 Ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do prepare—and potentially enhance their effects.
This example is a part of the rules. It offers clarity as to how the rule works as worded. The fact that it explicitly states this overrides any possible argument a person could possibly have about "but what about the way this sentence is worded--" NO. You can't prepare higher-level spells than the individual class could prepare at that level. The example is to point out how the classes look at it: Only by looking at the spell slots they'd have as a single-classed character at the level of that class.
That's all there is to it. You know how the rule is meant to work. You know the examples exist. Quit trying to deny it, and quit trying to be a munchkin.
That's the entirety of the rules for preparing spells (for bards).
But you're not a Bard. You're a Multiclassed Bard and therefore those rules applies and those limit you. Those are the rules you are willfully ignoring.
Which rules? Why?
The multiclass rules say I prepare spells as a single class character (bard). So i use the prepare spells rules, and only the prepare spells rules, as a single class bard. That doesn't say i use bard spell slots, so I don't do that.
Where does it tell me to use any rules beside the prepare spells rules for this purpose? (Rules text, not examples)
If you're a Bard 5/Paladin 3, you would prepare your Bard spells as if you were just a level 5 Bard and your Paladin spells as if you were just a level 3 Paladin. That's literally what it means to prepare spells as a single class character.
Anything you get from being a multiclass character, such as spell slots, is not—definitionally—part of being a single class character. You would have to show me where in the rules it says a level 5 Bard can prepare spells higher than level 3 or a level 3 Paladin can prepare spells higher than level 1.
If your argument is "You're limited based on your highest spell slot and a Bard 5/Paladin 4 has a highest spell slot of of 4" then my counter would be "That 4th level spell slot is not coming from being a single class Bard or single class Paladin".
The rules are super clear and explicit about this
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
If we look at this example:
Ranger 4/Sorcerer 3 has access to level 1, 2, and 3 spell slots per the multiclass table
Ranger 4 as a single-classed character has access to level 1 slots
Sorcerer 3 has access to level 1 and 2 slots
The example says you can prepare level 1 Ranger spells and level 1 and 2 Sorcerer spells
The example does not say you can prepare level 1, 2, and 3 spells of both Ranger and Sorcerer types
The rules say exactly what people claim they are saying and then explicitly support that with an example that confirms 100% what the rules say.
Imagine a multiclass like Sorceror 3/Bard 2, taken in that order.
I gain slots based on the sum of their levels (they're both full casters), so 4/3/2 slots (for spell levels 1/2/3).
I prepare a number of spells based on each class's level - 5 bard spells and 6 sorceror spells.
But what level spells can I prepare? Let's dispense with the obvious first:
Sorceror 3 was straight class levels, so they have at most 2nd level spells prepared (and could have up to 3 2nd level spells if they retrained a 1st level spell at 3rd level).
Bard starts with 4 1st level spells.
Now, the more tricky part - the first level of Bard was gaining a bard level, so you could presumably retrain one spell at Bard 1. Then you gain a spell and can retrain a spell at bard 2. What level of spells can those bard spells be?
So let's turn to the multiclassing rules: "You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
Okay, so what does the Bard class say?: "The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Bard levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Bard Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional spells from the Bard spell list until the number of spells on your list matches the number on the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." And also: "Whenever you gain a Bard level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Bard spell for which you have spell slots."
So a single class Bard can prepare spells of levels for which they have spell slots. At level 4 (Sorceror 3/Bard 1), I could retrain a level 1 bard spell into a level 2 bard spell, because i have level 2 slots? And then at level 5 (Sorceror 3/Bard 2), I could learn a level 3 spell, and retrain another spell into a level 3 spell, because I have level 3 slots?
(For completeness, all classes use similar wording about a spell level for which you have spell slots).
That doesn't rub me wrong. It doesn't even sound overpowered (Same number of spells per day as a full caster. Fewer prepared spells per class. Doesn't fall behind a spell level, at least not for the most recently gained class level.) That is, until I finish reading the multiclass rules.
Because multiclassing then goes on to say: "This table might give you spell slots of a higher level than the spells you prepare." What? How can you be given spell slots of a higher level than spells you prepare, when spells you can prepare is based on spell slots you have? These can't both be true at the same time. (Unless they just meant you might choose to take lower level spells instead of higher level spells, but that could equally be true of a single-class caster, and they don't have that text, so that seems unlikely).
Did the person who wrote the multiclassing rules even read the class rules?
I realized this morning that the point of this entire thread is rather strange. Typically, when someone starts a thread in this forum, they have a question they want answered. Now, sometimes a person will start a thread detailing what they believe is the correct interpretation of a rule, then ask, 'Am I interpreting this correctly?' but the point of the initial post is still to ask a question about the rules.
Most of us assumed you were asking, 'Am I interpreting this correctly?' but when we tell you no, you insist you are. Did you honestly start this thread to inform us of how to read the rules, or is there something else at play?
It feels like you had an argument with your DM and then you came here and started up a thread with a leading post, hoping to get a lot of people to jump on and go 'oh wow! You're right! We've been totally misreading this,' but when that didn't happen, you upped your game and moved to trying to persuade us that you are correct, so that you can then go back to your DM and say 'see, all these people agree with me'.
I'm not picking and choosing, I'm using the rules it told me to use. The rules for preparing spells and no other rules.
That's the entirety of the rules for preparing spells (for bards). It doesn't tell you to limit your slots to that of a level 2 Bard or build a level 2 Bard, it tells you to prepare spells as a single-classed bard, that is, follow those specific rules. (And since those rules nowhere reference the bard spell slots per level, you don't reference the bard spell slots per level. You use the spell slots you have.)
As to what do i hope to gain? Why do i have to hope to gain anything? An exploration of what is written is its own reward. (And to be honest, playing the multiclass rules as I read it seems both valid and interesting - more interesting (and playable) than the other interpretation, and i can't see a single combination that's more powerful than stuff you can otherwise do).
But you're not a Bard. You're a Multiclassed Bard and therefore those rules applies and those limit you. Those are the rules you are willfully ignoring.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Which rules? Why?
The multiclass rules say I prepare spells as a single class character (bard). So i use the prepare spells rules, and only the prepare spells rules, as a single class bard. That doesn't say i use bard spell slots, so I don't do that.
Where does it tell me to use any rules beside the prepare spells rules for this purpose? (Rules text, not examples)
This example is a part of the rules. It offers clarity as to how the rule works as worded. The fact that it explicitly states this overrides any possible argument a person could possibly have about "but what about the way this sentence is worded--" NO. You can't prepare higher-level spells than the individual class could prepare at that level. The example is to point out how the classes look at it: Only by looking at the spell slots they'd have as a single-classed character at the level of that class.
That's all there is to it. You know how the rule is meant to work. You know the examples exist. Quit trying to deny it, and quit trying to be a munchkin.
If you're a Bard 5/Paladin 3, you would prepare your Bard spells as if you were just a level 5 Bard and your Paladin spells as if you were just a level 3 Paladin. That's literally what it means to prepare spells as a single class character.
Anything you get from being a multiclass character, such as spell slots, is not—definitionally—part of being a single class character. You would have to show me where in the rules it says a level 5 Bard can prepare spells higher than level 3 or a level 3 Paladin can prepare spells higher than level 1.
If your argument is "You're limited based on your highest spell slot and a Bard 5/Paladin 4 has a highest spell slot of of 4" then my counter would be "That 4th level spell slot is not coming from being a single class Bard or single class Paladin".
The rules are super clear and explicit about this
If we look at this example:
The rules say exactly what people claim they are saying and then explicitly support that with an example that confirms 100% what the rules say.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I realized this morning that the point of this entire thread is rather strange. Typically, when someone starts a thread in this forum, they have a question they want answered. Now, sometimes a person will start a thread detailing what they believe is the correct interpretation of a rule, then ask, 'Am I interpreting this correctly?' but the point of the initial post is still to ask a question about the rules.
Most of us assumed you were asking, 'Am I interpreting this correctly?' but when we tell you no, you insist you are. Did you honestly start this thread to inform us of how to read the rules, or is there something else at play?
It feels like you had an argument with your DM and then you came here and started up a thread with a leading post, hoping to get a lot of people to jump on and go 'oh wow! You're right! We've been totally misreading this,' but when that didn't happen, you upped your game and moved to trying to persuade us that you are correct, so that you can then go back to your DM and say 'see, all these people agree with me'.