The intention of surprise is that the surprised creature is not yet ready for battle (not in a fighting stance and not watching it's surroundings). That is why it does not get any actions or reactions until after it skips its turn.
Once it is ready to fight, sneaking up on it grants advantage, but it is still ready to keep fighting on its turn.
Also keep in mind that there's no "behind" creatures during combat and you usually can't come out of your hiding spot mid-combat without being seen. The DM can make an exception if an enemy is distracted (e.g. they're trying to pick a lock while everyone fights) but sneaking up on people usually isn't a viable combat strategy.
If you are playing with the optional facing rules, there is a "behind", but even in those rules, it would just be advantage. No way to trigger surprise in the middle of combat for a feature like the assassin's auto crit. (Or similar)
can a creature be surprised in the middle of combat if you stealth behind it?
I believe they've said explicitly that surprise only happens at the beginning of combat. Attacking a creature you've successfully hidden from would grant you advantage, but they know that combat has been engaged and as such would not be "surprised".
can a creature be surprised in the middle of combat if you stealth behind it?
I believe they've said explicitly that surprise only happens at the beginning of combat. Attacking a creature you've successfully hidden from would grant you advantage, but they know that combat has been engaged and as such would not be "surprised".
And with that, advantage has been mentioned 3 times (not counting facing variant).
And correction, surprise only happens on the creatures first turn of combat. If you sneak up on a creature not in combat (even if you and/or the party are), they could also be surprised.
Even though there is no surprised condition, you can still probably get your desired effect through creative use of the available tools. If you are looking to "surprise" a target in the middle of combat, you can situationally give the attacker advantage on the attack or, in the extreme, you could even treat the target as having the stunned condition while being attacked by that person. That's pretty powerful though, so be aware of what you're getting into.
Think about combat logically. If you are successfully hidden and ambush a group they are surprised and the results of that are resolved before they can respond. It may have, additionally, ongoing or lasting effects in that particular instance that effects the rest of that round and further rounds potentially.
Now, if in said combat other hidden targets emerge from their location it should once again present the same sequence of surprise. Think about it logically. Take the movie 300 a very combat based movie. When the 300 take the surprise action/round from behind the wall they created the immortals have no actions they are surprised. Damage is resolved as are conditions. Then, initiative sequence commences based off of the now new current positions. During the battle new forces arrive from hiding. Surprise once again occurs and is resolved. Then advantage/disadvantage is applied, like before, and new initiative is applied to combat. One might suggest it as encounter spacing but they would be incorrect as first encounter has not yet resolved to progress further. D&D does not have an overlapping encounter mechanic. In order to progress encounters need resolution. When DMing you may have to make calls mechanically that alter/modify/correct a possibly overlooked or not correctly supported context within a particular brand. Perhaps it is intended to be played one way and wordered another. Simply there are two solutions. Surprise can be relocated from it's current location to the conditions location with the specification as to where/when, in this instance round 1 only. Or it can be corrected to be used more versatile in its current location in the phb with it beung supported as target/target resolution that is resolved before initiative with its results after its combat round (surprise round/surprise resolution phase) effecting rolls and character response in round one of turn based sequence. Remember, it's your world, you are its creator. As DM we must take the rules as they are, a suggestion and guide. Determine what way best supports you group and playstyle. Hopefully this helps you in determining what way best to resolve this issue. We don't work for wizards but we do support their brand. We are all human. The best we can do is work together to come to logical conclusions. Have a wonderful adventure within the brand.
I know I'm a bit late to the conversation but what about having enchantment spells that effectively bring characters out of combat. If an enchantment wizard hits a creature with hypnotic gaze that creature in effect is leaving combat, it is not trying to protect itself from an attack. Mechanically attacking that creature breaks the spell and brings it back into combat which feels like it would have the effect of a surprise round.
The rules state, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." So if a character or monster notices any threat, which it should if it is already in combat, it cannot be surprised.
I know I'm a bit late to the conversation but what about having enchantment spells that effectively bring characters out of combat. If an enchantment wizard hits a creature with hypnotic gaze that creature in effect is leaving combat, it is not trying to protect itself from an attack. Mechanically attacking that creature breaks the spell and brings it back into combat which feels like it would have the effect of a surprise round.
It's not out of combat, it's just making a saving throw every turn. It's only out of combat if you stop attacking it and it stops attacking back. And why would it be surprised if you don't stop attacking it?
If an enchantment wizard hits a creature with hypnotic gaze that creature in effect is leaving combat, it is not trying to protect itself from an attack.
The creature must be capable of defending itself - at least as it's about to be attacked - since incapacitating it doesn't make them any easier to hit (or automatically fail strength or dexterity saving throws) the way a paralyzed creature would.
Mechanically attacking that creature breaks the spell and brings it back into combat which feels like it would have the effect of a surprise round.
Surprise is meant to reflect that a creature was caught off-guard when a fight broke out. A creature that becomes incapacitated mid-combat knows it's in danger.
Also 5e doesn't have surprise rounds; each creature may or may not be surprised at the start of combat independently of its allies.
For the definition of surprise, I like to use the analogy of a sucker punch. You might be aware of combat and all threats but if an attack comes from a successfully stealthed/undetected target you're likely to be considered surprised.
For the definition of surprise, I like to use the analogy of a sucker punch. You might be aware of combat and all threats but if an attack comes from a successfully stealthed/undetected target you're likely to be considered surprised.
Except that's explicitly a different situation than being surprised, what you described is covered in the rules for unseen attackers. If a creature is aware that combat has begun, an attacker might still be able to gain Advantage from being unseen, but anything that is triggered by the target being "surprised" such as the Rogue's auto-crit from Assassinate would not happen.
This question is specifically addressed in the Sage Advice Compendium. "The surprise rule is relevant only when a combat is starting. Any ambushes during the fight use the rules for Dexterity (Stealth) checks." There is more detail under the combat section, but I think this is the most relevant bit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
can a creature be surprised in the middle of combat if you stealth behind it?
Hello there,
Rules as Written imply no, because Surprise only happens in the first round of combat https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/combat#Surprise
You can get advantage on an attack roll if you are hidden, though https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets
-- Arms are for hugging The Dandy Warhols --
The intention of surprise is that the surprised creature is not yet ready for battle (not in a fighting stance and not watching it's surroundings). That is why it does not get any actions or reactions until after it skips its turn.
Once it is ready to fight, sneaking up on it grants advantage, but it is still ready to keep fighting on its turn.
Also keep in mind that there's no "behind" creatures during combat and you usually can't come out of your hiding spot mid-combat without being seen. The DM can make an exception if an enemy is distracted (e.g. they're trying to pick a lock while everyone fights) but sneaking up on people usually isn't a viable combat strategy.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
If you are playing with the optional facing rules, there is a "behind", but even in those rules, it would just be advantage. No way to trigger surprise in the middle of combat for a feature like the assassin's auto crit. (Or similar)
I believe they've said explicitly that surprise only happens at the beginning of combat. Attacking a creature you've successfully hidden from would grant you advantage, but they know that combat has been engaged and as such would not be "surprised".
And with that, advantage has been mentioned 3 times (not counting facing variant).
And correction, surprise only happens on the creatures first turn of combat. If you sneak up on a creature not in combat (even if you and/or the party are), they could also be surprised.
Even though there is no surprised condition, you can still probably get your desired effect through creative use of the available tools. If you are looking to "surprise" a target in the middle of combat, you can situationally give the attacker advantage on the attack or, in the extreme, you could even treat the target as having the stunned condition while being attacked by that person. That's pretty powerful though, so be aware of what you're getting into.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Think about combat logically. If you are successfully hidden and ambush a group they are surprised and the results of that are resolved before they can respond. It may have, additionally, ongoing or lasting effects in that particular instance that effects the rest of that round and further rounds potentially.
Now, if in said combat other hidden targets emerge from their location it should once again present the same sequence of surprise. Think about it logically. Take the movie 300 a very combat based movie. When the 300 take the surprise action/round from behind the wall they created the immortals have no actions they are surprised. Damage is resolved as are conditions. Then, initiative sequence commences based off of the now new current positions. During the battle new forces arrive from hiding. Surprise once again occurs and is resolved. Then advantage/disadvantage is applied, like before, and new initiative is applied to combat. One might suggest it as encounter spacing but they would be incorrect as first encounter has not yet resolved to progress further. D&D does not have an overlapping encounter mechanic. In order to progress encounters need resolution. When DMing you may have to make calls mechanically that alter/modify/correct a possibly overlooked or not correctly supported context within a particular brand. Perhaps it is intended to be played one way and wordered another. Simply there are two solutions. Surprise can be relocated from it's current location to the conditions location with the specification as to where/when, in this instance round 1 only. Or it can be corrected to be used more versatile in its current location in the phb with it beung supported as target/target resolution that is resolved before initiative with its results after its combat round (surprise round/surprise resolution phase) effecting rolls and character response in round one of turn based sequence. Remember, it's your world, you are its creator. As DM we must take the rules as they are, a suggestion and guide. Determine what way best supports you group and playstyle. Hopefully this helps you in determining what way best to resolve this issue. We don't work for wizards but we do support their brand. We are all human. The best we can do is work together to come to logical conclusions. Have a wonderful adventure within the brand.
I know I'm a bit late to the conversation but what about having enchantment spells that effectively bring characters out of combat. If an enchantment wizard hits a creature with hypnotic gaze that creature in effect is leaving combat, it is not trying to protect itself from an attack. Mechanically attacking that creature breaks the spell and brings it back into combat which feels like it would have the effect of a surprise round.
The rules state, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." So if a character or monster notices any threat, which it should if it is already in combat, it cannot be surprised.
It's not out of combat, it's just making a saving throw every turn. It's only out of combat if you stop attacking it and it stops attacking back. And why would it be surprised if you don't stop attacking it?
The creature must be capable of defending itself - at least as it's about to be attacked - since incapacitating it doesn't make them any easier to hit (or automatically fail strength or dexterity saving throws) the way a paralyzed creature would.
Surprise is meant to reflect that a creature was caught off-guard when a fight broke out. A creature that becomes incapacitated mid-combat knows it's in danger.
Also 5e doesn't have surprise rounds; each creature may or may not be surprised at the start of combat independently of its allies.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
For the definition of surprise, I like to use the analogy of a sucker punch. You might be aware of combat and all threats but if an attack comes from a successfully stealthed/undetected target you're likely to be considered surprised.
Except that's explicitly a different situation than being surprised, what you described is covered in the rules for unseen attackers. If a creature is aware that combat has begun, an attacker might still be able to gain Advantage from being unseen, but anything that is triggered by the target being "surprised" such as the Rogue's auto-crit from Assassinate would not happen.
This question is specifically addressed in the Sage Advice Compendium. "The surprise rule is relevant only when a combat is starting. Any ambushes during the fight use the rules for Dexterity (Stealth) checks." There is more detail under the combat section, but I think this is the most relevant bit.