ADV even on a single attack is big...casters with high damage single attack roll spells (Inflict wounds, guiding bolt, chromatic orb, crown of stars, etc...) will appreciate the ADV.
Also to the point "the orc will just smash the owl"....ok great. Its an attack that is not against me or the rest of the party and they are using an attack that potentially does a LOT more damage to just squash a 5 hp familiar. Basically you just used them as a way to prevent damage to yourself and waste the orcs action attacking something other than you.
Action economy is a huge advantage in combat and any way you can get a lot of creatures out on the field (regardless of hp) its in your favor to do so. Especially since this requires no action or BA to command them.
Also having the option to have a bunch of familiars out to cast a touch spell through is pretty decent as well as you are basically getting distant spell with more options.
All in All its a great spell IMO but not overpowered...just fun to use.
I don't think flock was ever UA. It looks like d&d ******* has the spell with incorrect information first and the few other free sites copied from that.
******* has it listed as 1 hour, no concentration.
I don't think flock was ever UA. It looks like d&d ******* has the spell with incorrect information first and the few other free sites copied from that.
******* has it listed as 1 hour, no concentration.
Hardly an "OP" spell when you consider the stagnation of familiars at mid to high levels. Sure, having two extra familiars at 3rd level is good for scouting, but is a huge liability in combat. Spells like Bless doesn't get knocked out by a stray goblin arrow or a magic missile from the average novice wizard. Not to mention that any given familiar is going to be only as good at infiltration as a level 2 rogue unless you dump the party's precious spell slots into the thing. You guys are way overestimating the usefulness of this spell outside of a set of niche situations. And who cares? Let the pact of the chain warlock have one good thing, hells know they need it considering they are the objectively worst pact boon to go with outside of flavor. Hardly an "OP" spell at any level it's cast. You're all just scared of having a couple more creatures to keep track of in your game.
Hardly an "OP" spell when you consider the stagnation of familiars at mid to high levels. Sure, having two extra familiars at 3rd level is good for scouting, but is a huge liability in combat. Spells like Bless doesn't get knocked out by a stray goblinarrow or a magic missile from the average novice wizard. Not to mention that any given familiar is going to be only as good at infiltration as a level 2 rogue unless you dump the party's precious spell slots into the thing. You guys are way overestimating the usefulness of this spell outside of a set of niche situations. And who cares? Let the pact of the chain warlock have one good thing, hells know they need it considering they are the objectively worst pact boon to go with outside of flavor. Hardly an "OP" spell at any level it's cast. You're all just scared of having a couple more creatures to keep track of in your game.
Depending on the situation flock of familiars can be far, far more powerful than bless. IF the familiars are considered to be able to effectively distract other creatures so as to give advantage to the next attack against those creatures, that will often be the equivalent of +5 to hit.
I agree with you that flock of familiars might be less effective if your opponents were a hoard of goblins or included low-level minions with ranged attacks or even if either side wanted to use potentially threatening AoE attacks. Other spells than FoF might be better used in situations like this.
I think that flock of familiars would really excel if you're targetting big-hitting opponents and in these cases it's awesome. In these cases, If you just had a spell that said that it could soak up three attacks, that would already be OP. And, up until that is achieved, the familiars can continue (for potentially an hour) to give advantage on a next attack.
Soaking up three magic missiles would mean 3 * 1d4+1 less damage to your barbarian. Not such a great final outcome for a second level spell but the familiars should have got at least one round of help actions in before (assuming the use of a 1st level spell slot) their demise used up the action of an enemy caster.
Depending on how initiative works in your game, flock of familiars might not even provide you with more "help" than a single familiar if you're fighting a lone enemy.
If the multiple familiars from the spell get grouped into a single spot in the initiative order, then all n of them using their Help action to grant advantage in combat is effectively exactly the same as only a single one of them doing so: the target of the Help action in combat is the creature within 5 feet of the individual using the Help action, granting advantage to the next ally that attacks said creature (RAI as per Sage Advice, also confirmed by how the official DM Screen describes it).
Even if the multiple familiars got their own individual spot in the initiative order, there are a lot of potential scenarios where Help action advantage basically gets uselessly stacked.
Not sure if this has been answered yet or if its up to your DM's discretion but does Flock of Familiars get 3 separate Help actions or just one? Like if the round went Cleric, BBEG, Monk, Warlock, 3x Familiar, Paladin would only the Paladin get the Help action or would it be Paladin for 1 Familiar, and the other 2 Familiar Help action's transfer to the next round to then the Cleric and Monk?
Or do you literally direct each Familiar's Help action, like saying "ok my 3 Familiars swoop down and distract BBEG using Help action to apply advantage to Warlock, Cleric and Monk only" despite the Paladin's turn being next?
Not sure if this has been answered yet or if its up to your DM's discretion but does Flock of Familiars get 3 separate Help actions or just one? Like if the round went Cleric, BBEG, Monk, Warlock, 3x Familiar, Paladin would only the Paladin get the Help action or would it be Paladin for 1 Familiar, and the other 2 Familiar Help action's transfer to the next round to then the Cleric and Monk?
Or do you literally direct each Familiar's Help action, like saying "ok my 3 Familiars swoop down and distract BBEG using Help action to apply advantage to Warlock, Cleric and Monk only" despite the Paladin's turn being next?
Multiple help actions on the same enemy wouldn't stack, but help on 3 different enemies works.
Not sure if this has been answered yet or if its up to your DM's discretion but does Flock of Familiars get 3 separate Help actions or just one? Like if the round went Cleric, BBEG, Monk, Warlock, 3x Familiar, Paladin would only the Paladin get the Help action or would it be Paladin for 1 Familiar, and the other 2 Familiar Help action's transfer to the next round to then the Cleric and Monk?
Or do you literally direct each Familiar's Help action, like saying "ok my 3 Familiars swoop down and distract BBEG using Help action to apply advantage to Warlock, Cleric and Monk only" despite the Paladin's turn being next?
Multiple help actions on the same enemy wouldn't stack, but help on 3 different enemies works.
Ahh I see. The only bonus to having 3 would be if it killed one there'd be 2 others that could still give advantage but only to one person. And can you direct the advantage? So despite the order saying Paladin is next can you say advantage goes to Warlock only?
The answer to that question is the subject of disagreement. I say it goes to the next attacker, but there's a fair argument to be made that the rule doesn't care whether you direct it or not.
The answer to that question is the subject of disagreement. I say it goes to the next attacker, but there's a fair argument to be made that the rule doesn't care whether you direct it or not.
Ahh gotcha, so more DM discretion and maybe ask ahead of time how they prioritize the Help action. Thanks
The answer to that question is the subject of disagreement. I say it goes to the next attacker, but there's a fair argument to be made that the rule doesn't care whether you direct it or not.
Ahh gotcha, so more DM discretion and maybe ask ahead of time how they prioritize the Help action. Thanks
The Help action in combat is providing advantage to "aid a friendly creature", so the familiars would get to choose which of your allies they are aiding. So if three of your allies were fighting a single creature, each familiar could Help a different one of your allies.
The answer to that question is the subject of disagreement. I say it goes to the next attacker, but there's a fair argument to be made that the rule doesn't care whether you direct it or not.
Ahh gotcha, so more DM discretion and maybe ask ahead of time how they prioritize the Help action. Thanks
The Help action in combat is providing advantage to "aid a friendly creature", so the familiars would get to choose which of your allies they are aiding. So if three of your allies were fighting a single creature, each familiar could Help a different one of your allies.
Oh thats different from what the other person said. It makes sense, even if they all take the same turn the Help action doesn't clearly state it gives advantage to the "next" friendly creature it says "a" friendly creature which you're right, implies a choice. So 3 different choices on one turn despite only one target. That makes its a much better use than I thought now.
That being said I do play a Warlock so when you think of only have 2 spell slots, its great for advantage but that means only 1 Hex spell and no other defense or offense spells so I think with that it becomes less OP due to what you're giving up.
Here's my take on the spell. If I were DMing, I'd rule that a Warlock can summon the special types of familiars and here's why: I think this goes to the specific vs general rule. Find Familiar is a first level Wizard only spell that gives a list of options for what you can summon.
Flock of Familiars is a 2nd level spell that is only available to Wizards and Warlocks. Warlocks ONLY get find familiar as Pact of the Chain.
Flock of Familiars says: "Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell."
Pact of the Chain states: "When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite."
These are literally options that you, as a Pact of the Chain (specific class option) can select when you cast the Find Familiar spell the same goes for Pact of the Chain invocations. Does this make it overpowered? I think not. Even if you had a flock of beefy Strixhaven mascot familiars, it's not that powerful. Sure, it's got HUGE utility for a second level spell when you are talking exploration/scouting but Pact of the Chain Warlocks already have that, and sacrificed a lot to get it. To truly make it work you're going to eat at least two of your invocations for Voice of the Chain Master (to increase scouting range) and Investment of the Chain Master (For the everything).
So what will you get when you take your army of overpowered, flying, beefy Fractal Mascots into battle? I'll tell you what you'll get: A snicker from your DM as they tear through your low hit point, low AC, easily dispelled, concentration eating army. For anything other than exploration, this is almost definitely the worst summoning spell in the game. As for the controversy about using the familiars and the help action to get advantage, since Find Familiar is a first level spell, anyone can already do that. Just get it from a feat and make your owl pet help. For a Warlock (any Warlock) this can already be accomplished as of level 2 with a single invocation. Take Misty Visions and cast an illusion of swirling mist or something around you. It takes 1 action to cast vs. 1 minute, requires no spell slot, completely obscures you from enemies giving them disadvantage to hit you, but since it's your illusion you can see through it giving you advantage on every attack. To negate this they have to burn an action to investigate AND succeed against your Spell DC. This is better for combat since you can put those invocations into your Eldritch Blast for more damage and control.
Even in the absolute best case scenario, this is a niche build with excellent exploration utility and flavor, but little else. Put it up against a Tomelock that can Ritual cast a ton of super useful spells plus gets extra utility from more cantrips, or a Bladelock, or an Eldritch Blaster and they just don't really stand up. This gets even worse in comparison when you look at how bad it scales. Second attack is always useful for a melee fighter, extra cantrips are always useful for a caster, but at high levels, one attack (from a dragon's breath weapon or the like) could take out the entire mechanic you built your character around. So why not let players put all their eggs in one basket and see how clever they are about keeping them unbroken?
Every few years I get a notification that someone ressurrected this thread. The game has already changed so much since this post was made, No one realy cares about Flock of Familiars anymore as we have much worse things to worry about.
Maybe this thread will live past One D&D. We will see.
I can just see a high level enemy sending ten cats and using them to cast shocking grasp against a small party
That sounds fun, but is probably not as over powered as you are imagining. Casting a spell through a familiar does not duplicate the spell for multiple familiars. You can only send 1 spell through 1 familiar to 1 target.
Unless you twincast metamagic the touch spell. This would allow you to cast it at 2 targets from 2 locations from 2 familiars.
I can just see a high level enemy sending ten cats and using them to cast shocking grasp against a small party
That sounds fun, but is probably not as over powered as you are imagining. Casting a spell through a familiar does not duplicate the spell for multiple familiars. You can only send 1 spell through 1 familiar to 1 target.
Unless you twincast metamagic the touch spell. This would allow you to cast it at 2 targets from 2 locations from 2 familiars.
Flock of Familiars has specific language when you use one of the familiars to deliver a touch spell. Specifically it says "However, you can cast a touch spell through only one familiar per turn."
Also, when using a familiar to deliver a touch spell the spell is handled "...as if [the familiar] had cast the spell." This fact combined with the fact that twinned spell metamagic just adds an additional target (i.e. it is still a single spell cast) means both targets have to be in touch range of one familiar.
Finally, delivering a touch spell uses the familiars reaction. So if you quickened spell to cast two Shocking Grasps only one of them could be delivered through one familiar. After that the familiar is out of reactions. You could use your familiar to deliver one touch spell and deliver the other yourself this way.
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Its a good spell for combat IMO.
ADV even on a single attack is big...casters with high damage single attack roll spells (Inflict wounds, guiding bolt, chromatic orb, crown of stars, etc...) will appreciate the ADV.
Also to the point "the orc will just smash the owl"....ok great. Its an attack that is not against me or the rest of the party and they are using an attack that potentially does a LOT more damage to just squash a 5 hp familiar. Basically you just used them as a way to prevent damage to yourself and waste the orcs action attacking something other than you.
Action economy is a huge advantage in combat and any way you can get a lot of creatures out on the field (regardless of hp) its in your favor to do so. Especially since this requires no action or BA to command them.
Also having the option to have a bunch of familiars out to cast a touch spell through is pretty decent as well as you are basically getting distant spell with more options.
All in All its a great spell IMO but not overpowered...just fun to use.
******* has it listed as 1 hour, no concentration.
Yes. Thus "incorrect information".
Its from the Lost Laboratory of Kwalish so many might not be able to see where it shows concentration based on their purchased/shared content.
Looking for a game
Hardly an "OP" spell when you consider the stagnation of familiars at mid to high levels. Sure, having two extra familiars at 3rd level is good for scouting, but is a huge liability in combat. Spells like Bless doesn't get knocked out by a stray goblin arrow or a magic missile from the average novice wizard. Not to mention that any given familiar is going to be only as good at infiltration as a level 2 rogue unless you dump the party's precious spell slots into the thing. You guys are way overestimating the usefulness of this spell outside of a set of niche situations. And who cares? Let the pact of the chain warlock have one good thing, hells know they need it considering they are the objectively worst pact boon to go with outside of flavor. Hardly an "OP" spell at any level it's cast. You're all just scared of having a couple more creatures to keep track of in your game.
Depending on the situation flock of familiars can be far, far more powerful than bless. IF the familiars are considered to be able to effectively distract other creatures so as to give advantage to the next attack against those creatures, that will often be the equivalent of +5 to hit.
I agree with you that flock of familiars might be less effective if your opponents were a hoard of goblins or included low-level minions with ranged attacks or even if either side wanted to use potentially threatening AoE attacks. Other spells than FoF might be better used in situations like this.
I think that flock of familiars would really excel if you're targetting big-hitting opponents and in these cases it's awesome. In these cases, If you just had a spell that said that it could soak up three attacks, that would already be OP. And, up until that is achieved, the familiars can continue (for potentially an hour) to give advantage on a next attack.
Soaking up three magic missiles would mean 3 * 1d4+1 less damage to your barbarian. Not such a great final outcome for a second level spell but the familiars should have got at least one round of help actions in before (assuming the use of a 1st level spell slot) their demise used up the action of an enemy caster.
Depending on how initiative works in your game, flock of familiars might not even provide you with more "help" than a single familiar if you're fighting a lone enemy.
If the multiple familiars from the spell get grouped into a single spot in the initiative order, then all n of them using their Help action to grant advantage in combat is effectively exactly the same as only a single one of them doing so: the target of the Help action in combat is the creature within 5 feet of the individual using the Help action, granting advantage to the next ally that attacks said creature (RAI as per Sage Advice, also confirmed by how the official DM Screen describes it).
Even if the multiple familiars got their own individual spot in the initiative order, there are a lot of potential scenarios where Help action advantage basically gets uselessly stacked.
Not sure if this has been answered yet or if its up to your DM's discretion but does Flock of Familiars get 3 separate Help actions or just one? Like if the round went Cleric, BBEG, Monk, Warlock, 3x Familiar, Paladin would only the Paladin get the Help action or would it be Paladin for 1 Familiar, and the other 2 Familiar Help action's transfer to the next round to then the Cleric and Monk?
Or do you literally direct each Familiar's Help action, like saying "ok my 3 Familiars swoop down and distract BBEG using Help action to apply advantage to Warlock, Cleric and Monk only" despite the Paladin's turn being next?
Multiple help actions on the same enemy wouldn't stack, but help on 3 different enemies works.
Ahh I see. The only bonus to having 3 would be if it killed one there'd be 2 others that could still give advantage but only to one person. And can you direct the advantage? So despite the order saying Paladin is next can you say advantage goes to Warlock only?
Thanks
The answer to that question is the subject of disagreement. I say it goes to the next attacker, but there's a fair argument to be made that the rule doesn't care whether you direct it or not.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Ahh gotcha, so more DM discretion and maybe ask ahead of time how they prioritize the Help action. Thanks
The Help action in combat is providing advantage to "aid a friendly creature", so the familiars would get to choose which of your allies they are aiding. So if three of your allies were fighting a single creature, each familiar could Help a different one of your allies.
Oh thats different from what the other person said. It makes sense, even if they all take the same turn the Help action doesn't clearly state it gives advantage to the "next" friendly creature it says "a" friendly creature which you're right, implies a choice. So 3 different choices on one turn despite only one target. That makes its a much better use than I thought now.
That being said I do play a Warlock so when you think of only have 2 spell slots, its great for advantage but that means only 1 Hex spell and no other defense or offense spells so I think with that it becomes less OP due to what you're giving up.
Here's my take on the spell. If I were DMing, I'd rule that a Warlock can summon the special types of familiars and here's why: I think this goes to the specific vs general rule. Find Familiar is a first level Wizard only spell that gives a list of options for what you can summon.
Flock of Familiars is a 2nd level spell that is only available to Wizards and Warlocks. Warlocks ONLY get find familiar as Pact of the Chain.
Flock of Familiars says: "Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell."
Pact of the Chain states: "When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite."
These are literally options that you, as a Pact of the Chain (specific class option) can select when you cast the Find Familiar spell the same goes for Pact of the Chain invocations. Does this make it overpowered? I think not. Even if you had a flock of beefy Strixhaven mascot familiars, it's not that powerful. Sure, it's got HUGE utility for a second level spell when you are talking exploration/scouting but Pact of the Chain Warlocks already have that, and sacrificed a lot to get it. To truly make it work you're going to eat at least two of your invocations for Voice of the Chain Master (to increase scouting range) and Investment of the Chain Master (For the everything).
So what will you get when you take your army of overpowered, flying, beefy Fractal Mascots into battle? I'll tell you what you'll get: A snicker from your DM as they tear through your low hit point, low AC, easily dispelled, concentration eating army. For anything other than exploration, this is almost definitely the worst summoning spell in the game. As for the controversy about using the familiars and the help action to get advantage, since Find Familiar is a first level spell, anyone can already do that. Just get it from a feat and make your owl pet help. For a Warlock (any Warlock) this can already be accomplished as of level 2 with a single invocation. Take Misty Visions and cast an illusion of swirling mist or something around you. It takes 1 action to cast vs. 1 minute, requires no spell slot, completely obscures you from enemies giving them disadvantage to hit you, but since it's your illusion you can see through it giving you advantage on every attack. To negate this they have to burn an action to investigate AND succeed against your Spell DC. This is better for combat since you can put those invocations into your Eldritch Blast for more damage and control.
Even in the absolute best case scenario, this is a niche build with excellent exploration utility and flavor, but little else. Put it up against a Tomelock that can Ritual cast a ton of super useful spells plus gets extra utility from more cantrips, or a Bladelock, or an Eldritch Blaster and they just don't really stand up. This gets even worse in comparison when you look at how bad it scales. Second attack is always useful for a melee fighter, extra cantrips are always useful for a caster, but at high levels, one attack (from a dragon's breath weapon or the like) could take out the entire mechanic you built your character around. So why not let players put all their eggs in one basket and see how clever they are about keeping them unbroken?
Every few years I get a notification that someone ressurrected this thread. The game has already changed so much since this post was made, No one realy cares about Flock of Familiars anymore as we have much worse things to worry about.
Maybe this thread will live past One D&D. We will see.
Start Playing Games profile with player reviews: https://startplaying.games/gm/carlos-prodm
If possible to stay out of harm's way, 3 owl familiars all with "fly by" and Help Action means advantage x3 on attacks for party members. Is that OP?
Technically you can look through all their eyes at once
Unless you twincast metamagic the touch spell. This would allow you to cast it at 2 targets from 2 locations from 2 familiars.
Flock of Familiars has specific language when you use one of the familiars to deliver a touch spell. Specifically it says "However, you can cast a touch spell through only one familiar per turn."
Also, when using a familiar to deliver a touch spell the spell is handled "...as if [the familiar] had cast the spell." This fact combined with the fact that twinned spell metamagic just adds an additional target (i.e. it is still a single spell cast) means both targets have to be in touch range of one familiar.
Finally, delivering a touch spell uses the familiars reaction. So if you quickened spell to cast two Shocking Grasps only one of them could be delivered through one familiar. After that the familiar is out of reactions. You could use your familiar to deliver one touch spell and deliver the other yourself this way.