It was from the earlier discussions in the thread - that I skimmed. So yes it was the range of counterspell. I thought I had seen someone quoting from the PHB but I may have been mixing up threads. Still the question becomes important with spells like hunters mark - since the range is 90’ can it be cast from cover without initiating combat/requiring an initiation roll? If cast from cover as a verbal only spell does it always alert the market or is it more of a mental focusing of the marker and doesn’t alert the marker at all?
[...]Still the question becomes important with spells like hunters mark - since the range is 90’ can it be cast from cover without initiating combat/requiring an initiation roll? If cast from cover as a verbal only spell does it always alert the market or is it more of a mental focusing of the marker and doesn’t alert the marker at all?
In my opinion, when sound is important for an encounter, the DM should determine whether the creatures are within each other's Perception range or not.
There are many different scenarios: a quiet place, a crowded area, a caster hidden in a room... Depending on the situation, your voice (in this case, the Verbal component) might be heard, or it might not.
I don't think strict rules about this are necessary. In fact, I believe the opposite.
The current RAW is that V components end being Hidden; out of combat, how that plays out is up to the DM, mid-combat I'd be more inclined to run with RAW. Plus from personal experience and what I've heard, it's a pretty rare instance where you'll actually be around 90 ft back from a target.
don't mean to resurrect an old thread, but allowing a check to do ONE feature that a Sorcerer can do unfailingly (as long as he has a sorcery point available) is not undercutting them.
Maybe one way to get around people not knowing whether your character or not is casting a spell, by speaking a language that is very rare, so people are a bit confused as to what you are saying? by the time the target clocks on to what you are saying you have already cast the spell? Or that your voice is so melodic, it sounds like you are singing a song instead of waxing lyrical magic.
Maybe one way to get around people not knowing whether your character or not is casting a spell, by speaking a language that is very rare, so people are a bit confused as to what you are saying? by the time the target clocks on to what you are saying you have already cast the spell? Or that your voice is so melodic, it sounds like you are singing a song instead of waxing lyrical magic.
I'd say the rules don't really factor into that distinction or choice for the player, mechanically speaking, just that they are a "chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated".
So subtle spell metamagic allows you to cast at lower than normal volume so the distance at which the casting can be recognized drops from 60’ to basically 0’. Fine I would agree the question really comes with spells like magic missile, Eldritch blast, etc that have ranges greater than 60’ - if I’m a warlock and get 2 Eldritch blasts with each casting if there are 2 guards and I cast from the shadows at the edge of the woods 90’ away are they going to hear the casting and know magic is going on or a they not going to hear it and be surprised as my bolts fly out of the woods and hit them while they are looking the other way? Yes I know they might see the blasts coming but just how fast and how visible are the blasts and would that constitute a surprise attack and surprise round or not?
So, since spells are cast at normal speaking volume (50-60 decibels), we can determine outside the D+D rules whether or not that's audible at 90'.
A 60 decibel sound at origin is only ~20 decibels at 90'. That's at the low end of whispering, and likely of less intensity than the background noise (typically 20-40 decibels for a reasonably quiet location). They should not be able to hear it.
If the two guards are talking to each other (50-60 decibels where they are), even 40' away is probably far enough that they're unlikely to notice you, because their own conversation will have much higher intensity than the sound of your casting from their position.
The rules, of course, don't say anything about how sound works. But they do kind of assume sound falls off over distance (see the spells that are audible out to x', which implies the intensity diminishes enough by x that they're no longer audible after that). So using an actual decibel calculation for the local intensity of a sound at the point its heard makes sense, even if it's not explicitly in the rules.
(Of course, for some reason, if you're hiding in the middle of the woods a mile from any listener and cast a spell with a verbal component, you stop being hidden for no apparent reason. Which is silly).
The rules are largely silent on the range you can detect enemies.
However, for verbal components, it's reasonable to suggest that if they can see you, they can also hear your verbal components since this is necessary to make certain other elements of the game (the ability for enemies to either know what you're casting or react to that casting) work.
That makes the problem one of "how far can you see?". If you need exceptional senses (Truesight, Blindsight, Darkvision, etc.) to see, then you're given a specific range for those senses.
For ordinary sight without impediments, we know that you have to be able to see someone with normal vision out to at least 600' since that's how far a Longbow can shoot.
The rules are largely silent on the range you can detect enemies.
However, for verbal components, it's reasonable to suggest that if they can see you, they can also hear your verbal components since this is necessary to make certain other elements of the game (the ability for enemies to either know what you're casting or react to that casting) work.
That makes the problem one of "how far can you see?". If you need exceptional senses (Truesight, Blindsight, Darkvision, etc.) to see, then you're given a specific range for those senses.
For ordinary sight without impediments, we know that you have to be able to see someone with normal vision out to at least 600' since that's how far a Longbow can shoot.
You can see much further than you can hear. Saying you can hear anything you can see is nonsense. You can literally see miles on a clear day (in an environment without obstructions), but you can't generally hear much further than 50' unless it's a loud sound, and even a piercing scream doesn't reach more than ~500'.
And it depends on what you mean by 'see'. Just because you can see someone doesn't mean you can even see their lips move (most people can't tell someone's lips are moving beyond about 30', much less tell what they're moving their lips for). Even identifying a person's face is only reliable out to 25', with increasing unreliability until it becomes impossible at 150'. Long archery ranges are well beyond the range to tell who you're shooting at.
The mechanics of sound propagation in air are fairly well known. To hear something, it must be louder than the background noise at your location. Quick rule of thumb: sound intensity measured in Decibels falls off by 6dB every doubling of distance. So if I'm speaking such that it's 60dB to me (~6": from mouth to ear), someone 4' from me (3 doublings) hears me at 42dB (perfectly audible in normal conditions). Someone 16' from me (another 2 doublings) can follow the conversation if they listen intently and background noise isn't high (30dB at their location). By 64', it's down to 18dB and inaudible in most places. And this is why you need to shout to be heard across even a modest house.
(This assumes there isn't a lot of sound reflection off surfaces, which can make sound travel farther. Certainly represents outdoor locations or indoor spaces with wood paneling, or moss covered surfaces, dirt, or probably plaster, or any other sound-dampening material. You should hear an echo any place where sound carries significantly farther.)
Also note that background noise is generally in the 20-40dB range. If sound intensity is lower than background noise, you can't hear it. Somewhere with lower than 20dB background noise would be exceptionally quiet. Even a light rustling of leaves in trees from low wind conditions is ~20dB at ground level.
This isn't a discussion of the physics of light and sound. It's a discussion about D&D game mechanics. While a discussion of the physics of light and sound might be useful for developers designing a game, it has no bearing how the game mechanics work.
This isn't a discussion of the physics of light and sound. It's a discussion about D&D game mechanics. While a discussion of the physics of light and sound might be useful for developers designing a game, it has no bearing how the game mechanics work.
Well, the game never tells you how far away you can hear or see something in any detail. So there's no game rule discussion to be had here. At which point, assuming something realistic makes more sense than assuming something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The reasonable starting point is reality.
(I mean, I suppose if you were being ridiculous, it does say you can see 40 miles if your view is unobstructed. And unrelated it says if nobody is trying to hide, you automatically notice them if within sight range (but it seems to be assuming a dungeon environment). But at 40 miles, you can't even see a human-sized creature. Even an Eagle can't see a human-sized creature at 40 miles. So concluding that you can see people 40 miles away from those two disparate sentences is just laughable).
I played 1st and 2nd AD+D. Assume things work like the real world unless the game explicitly tells you it doesn't is the way D+D was always meant to be played.
I mean, are you seriously suggesting that if someone said they could clearly identify people at 1 mile away, and hear what they were saying, you'd assume that was reasonable?
The game mechanic 'Verbal' is a limitation on spellcasting. It means you cannot cast the spell under certain circumstances (when you're prohibited from speaking, for example) and it allows the spell to be identified at range. Any discussion on rules needs to deal with implementing those limitations, not a debate over how well the mechanics model reality.
Allows the spell to be identified if you can hear or see them casting the spell. Which begs the questions 'can you hear them clearly enough to tell what they're saying?' and 'can you see them well enough to tell what they're doing?'
The likely distances for those things are ~50' (hear well enough) and ~25' (see well enough), assuming unobstructed sight and low background noise. During a battle 'hear' is probably more like 20' (what with the clash of weapons and the yelling of martial characters). Further than that, you might be able to tell they're casting a spell, but what spell? Unlikely.
Spell components were never intended to be signals about exactly what spell you were casting. They were always intended to be requirements that could limit your ability to cast. (Need to be able to speak. Need a free hand or two). That you couldpotentially identify what spell was being cast was a consequence (because D+D started with drawing all reasonable inferences), not a design intention.
(Of course, Somatic components never used to be special gestures either. For example, the original somatic component to lightning bolt (which required cat fur and a glass rod as material components) was rubbing the glass rod with the cat fur.)
Normal hearing range is given as 2d6*5' for trying to be quiet, 2d6*10' for normal volume, 2d6*50 for very loud (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/running-the-game#AudibleDistance). The reason for the 2d6 factor is not explained -- it's not a matter of skill since there's no perception check discussed, so perhaps random situational modifiers?
My general inclination would be to use 60' as a default distance at which verbal components can be heard, as it's a very common range for abilities (e.g. darkvision) and matches the range of counterspell.
VERBAL (V) A Verbal component is t h e chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice.
VERBAL (V) A Verbal component is t h e chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice.
The only problem with that rule that I see is that it implies Bards cannot sing their spells.... 'at a normal speaking volume' would perhaps be a better wording?
And a normal speaking volume can be heard out to a range of about 50-60' in quiet conditions, less in noisy environments. You will not be able to understand what is being said at that range, just aware that someone is speaking.
For full consonant recognition by a listener familiar with the language, you need to be within about 20' in quiet conditions. Some consonant recognition (language dependent) maybe out to 30'. (And again, less in noisy environments). In general, a conversation's sound intensity must be at least 6dB greater than background noise at your location to reasonably distinguish consonants, and 12dB greater or more for clear understanding.
A comfortable normal volume conversation generally happens at a range of 2-6'
The game mechanic 'Verbal' is a limitation on spellcasting. It means you cannot cast the spell under certain circumstances (when you're prohibited from speaking, for example) and it allows the spell to be identified at range. Any discussion on rules needs to deal with implementing those limitations, not a debate over how well the mechanics model reality.
Sure but the rules say its in a normal speaking voice. So how far a normal speaking voice will travel is important to know, and the rules are pretty sparse there so using the real world to adjudicate these things is rational. All we have is the encounter range chart. And that does not take into account tons of modifiers like background noise, terrain, barriers etc. Trying to be quiet, normal, very loud is also fairly vague. We also know it automatically breaks stealth whether or not people could rationally hear you.
Trying to be quiet
2d6 × 5 feet
Normal noise level
2d6 × 10 feet
Very loud
2d6 × 50 feet
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I would guess it's from the range of counterspell. Neither vision nor hearing have any explicit range limits.
It was from the earlier discussions in the thread - that I skimmed. So yes it was the range of counterspell. I thought I had seen someone quoting from the PHB but I may have been mixing up threads. Still the question becomes important with spells like hunters mark - since the range is 90’ can it be cast from cover without initiating combat/requiring an initiation roll? If cast from cover as a verbal only spell does it always alert the market or is it more of a mental focusing of the marker and doesn’t alert the marker at all?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
In my opinion, when sound is important for an encounter, the DM should determine whether the creatures are within each other's Perception range or not.
There are many different scenarios: a quiet place, a crowded area, a caster hidden in a room... Depending on the situation, your voice (in this case, the Verbal component) might be heard, or it might not.
I don't think strict rules about this are necessary. In fact, I believe the opposite.
The current RAW is that V components end being Hidden; out of combat, how that plays out is up to the DM, mid-combat I'd be more inclined to run with RAW. Plus from personal experience and what I've heard, it's a pretty rare instance where you'll actually be around 90 ft back from a target.
don't mean to resurrect an old thread, but allowing a check to do ONE feature that a Sorcerer can do unfailingly (as long as he has a sorcery point available) is not undercutting them.
Maybe one way to get around people not knowing whether your character or not is casting a spell, by speaking a language that is very rare, so people are a bit confused as to what you are saying? by the time the target clocks on to what you are saying you have already cast the spell? Or that your voice is so melodic, it sounds like you are singing a song instead of waxing lyrical magic.
I'd say the rules don't really factor into that distinction or choice for the player, mechanically speaking, just that they are a "chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated".
So, since spells are cast at normal speaking volume (50-60 decibels), we can determine outside the D+D rules whether or not that's audible at 90'.
A 60 decibel sound at origin is only ~20 decibels at 90'. That's at the low end of whispering, and likely of less intensity than the background noise (typically 20-40 decibels for a reasonably quiet location). They should not be able to hear it.
If the two guards are talking to each other (50-60 decibels where they are), even 40' away is probably far enough that they're unlikely to notice you, because their own conversation will have much higher intensity than the sound of your casting from their position.
The rules, of course, don't say anything about how sound works. But they do kind of assume sound falls off over distance (see the spells that are audible out to x', which implies the intensity diminishes enough by x that they're no longer audible after that). So using an actual decibel calculation for the local intensity of a sound at the point its heard makes sense, even if it's not explicitly in the rules.
(Of course, for some reason, if you're hiding in the middle of the woods a mile from any listener and cast a spell with a verbal component, you stop being hidden for no apparent reason. Which is silly).
The rules are largely silent on the range you can detect enemies.
However, for verbal components, it's reasonable to suggest that if they can see you, they can also hear your verbal components since this is necessary to make certain other elements of the game (the ability for enemies to either know what you're casting or react to that casting) work.
That makes the problem one of "how far can you see?". If you need exceptional senses (Truesight, Blindsight, Darkvision, etc.) to see, then you're given a specific range for those senses.
For ordinary sight without impediments, we know that you have to be able to see someone with normal vision out to at least 600' since that's how far a Longbow can shoot.
Well, the DMG gives some guidance on Audible Distance and Visibility in the Perception and Encounters section.
You can see much further than you can hear. Saying you can hear anything you can see is nonsense. You can literally see miles on a clear day (in an environment without obstructions), but you can't generally hear much further than 50' unless it's a loud sound, and even a piercing scream doesn't reach more than ~500'.
And it depends on what you mean by 'see'. Just because you can see someone doesn't mean you can even see their lips move (most people can't tell someone's lips are moving beyond about 30', much less tell what they're moving their lips for). Even identifying a person's face is only reliable out to 25', with increasing unreliability until it becomes impossible at 150'. Long archery ranges are well beyond the range to tell who you're shooting at.
The mechanics of sound propagation in air are fairly well known. To hear something, it must be louder than the background noise at your location. Quick rule of thumb: sound intensity measured in Decibels falls off by 6dB every doubling of distance. So if I'm speaking such that it's 60dB to me (~6": from mouth to ear), someone 4' from me (3 doublings) hears me at 42dB (perfectly audible in normal conditions). Someone 16' from me (another 2 doublings) can follow the conversation if they listen intently and background noise isn't high (30dB at their location). By 64', it's down to 18dB and inaudible in most places. And this is why you need to shout to be heard across even a modest house.
(This assumes there isn't a lot of sound reflection off surfaces, which can make sound travel farther. Certainly represents outdoor locations or indoor spaces with wood paneling, or moss covered surfaces, dirt, or probably plaster, or any other sound-dampening material. You should hear an echo any place where sound carries significantly farther.)
Also note that background noise is generally in the 20-40dB range. If sound intensity is lower than background noise, you can't hear it. Somewhere with lower than 20dB background noise would be exceptionally quiet. Even a light rustling of leaves in trees from low wind conditions is ~20dB at ground level.
This isn't a discussion of the physics of light and sound. It's a discussion about D&D game mechanics. While a discussion of the physics of light and sound might be useful for developers designing a game, it has no bearing how the game mechanics work.
Well, the game never tells you how far away you can hear or see something in any detail. So there's no game rule discussion to be had here. At which point, assuming something realistic makes more sense than assuming something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The reasonable starting point is reality.
(I mean, I suppose if you were being ridiculous, it does say you can see 40 miles if your view is unobstructed. And unrelated it says if nobody is trying to hide, you automatically notice them if within sight range (but it seems to be assuming a dungeon environment). But at 40 miles, you can't even see a human-sized creature. Even an Eagle can't see a human-sized creature at 40 miles. So concluding that you can see people 40 miles away from those two disparate sentences is just laughable).
I played 1st and 2nd AD+D. Assume things work like the real world unless the game explicitly tells you it doesn't is the way D+D was always meant to be played.
I mean, are you seriously suggesting that if someone said they could clearly identify people at 1 mile away, and hear what they were saying, you'd assume that was reasonable?
The game mechanic 'Verbal' is a limitation on spellcasting. It means you cannot cast the spell under certain circumstances (when you're prohibited from speaking, for example) and it allows the spell to be identified at range. Any discussion on rules needs to deal with implementing those limitations, not a debate over how well the mechanics model reality.
Allows the spell to be identified if you can hear or see them casting the spell. Which begs the questions 'can you hear them clearly enough to tell what they're saying?' and 'can you see them well enough to tell what they're doing?'
The likely distances for those things are ~50' (hear well enough) and ~25' (see well enough), assuming unobstructed sight and low background noise. During a battle 'hear' is probably more like 20' (what with the clash of weapons and the yelling of martial characters). Further than that, you might be able to tell they're casting a spell, but what spell? Unlikely.
Spell components were never intended to be signals about exactly what spell you were casting. They were always intended to be requirements that could limit your ability to cast. (Need to be able to speak. Need a free hand or two). That you could potentially identify what spell was being cast was a consequence (because D+D started with drawing all reasonable inferences), not a design intention.
(Of course, Somatic components never used to be special gestures either. For example, the original somatic component to lightning bolt (which required cat fur and a glass rod as material components) was rubbing the glass rod with the cat fur.)
Normal hearing range is given as 2d6*5' for trying to be quiet, 2d6*10' for normal volume, 2d6*50 for very loud (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/running-the-game#AudibleDistance). The reason for the 2d6 factor is not explained -- it's not a matter of skill since there's no perception check discussed, so perhaps random situational modifiers?
My general inclination would be to use 60' as a default distance at which verbal components can be heard, as it's a very common range for abilities (e.g. darkvision) and matches the range of counterspell.
Per the PHB, Verbal is normal volume:
VERBAL (V)
A Verbal component is t h e chanting of esoteric
words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated.
The words must be uttered in a normal speaking
voice.
The only problem with that rule that I see is that it implies Bards cannot sing their spells.... 'at a normal speaking volume' would perhaps be a better wording?
And a normal speaking volume can be heard out to a range of about 50-60' in quiet conditions, less in noisy environments. You will not be able to understand what is being said at that range, just aware that someone is speaking.
For full consonant recognition by a listener familiar with the language, you need to be within about 20' in quiet conditions. Some consonant recognition (language dependent) maybe out to 30'. (And again, less in noisy environments). In general, a conversation's sound intensity must be at least 6dB greater than background noise at your location to reasonably distinguish consonants, and 12dB greater or more for clear understanding.
A comfortable normal volume conversation generally happens at a range of 2-6'
Sure but the rules say its in a normal speaking voice. So how far a normal speaking voice will travel is important to know, and the rules are pretty sparse there so using the real world to adjudicate these things is rational. All we have is the encounter range chart. And that does not take into account tons of modifiers like background noise, terrain, barriers etc. Trying to be quiet, normal, very loud is also fairly vague. We also know it automatically breaks stealth whether or not people could rationally hear you.