Or, for example, an S spell requires that you draw a shape in the air with your fingers in a certain position, while an S,M spell requires drawing a shape with the components held in that hand (maybe also held in a particular way in that hand).
I'm not certain, and that's all roleplay really. But as far as rules go, S (without M) spells require no materials or focus in the hand doing the somatic gestures (per the rules on somatic components).
If you think of a S spell as require moving your hand (specifically) and a S,M spell as requiring you to move the components (or focus) around, I think the rules as stated and the SA supporting that reading make perfect sense.
So would that suggest that the Somatic component of S or SV spells are far more complicated and can't be performed with anything in the hand - while in SM or SMV spells the movements are less complicated? That's the only way I can rationalise it.
I think it is more like the material component channels the magic through the focus (whether or not moving the focus in any particular way is needed) and spells without the material component are disrupted by items in hand.
And the war caster feat is learning how to channel the magic around weapons.
So a player without War Caster and using a Sword and Shield where the Sword is their spellcasting focus would have to either doff their shield or sheath/drop their sword in order to cast:
Spells that have a Somatic component and no Material components.
Spells that have a Material component with a monetary cost.
And every other spell would function just fine - is that right?
I think so in that case. And my understanding of free actions is that you can sheath your sword using a free action as part of an action (to cast a spell, perhaps?) and then on your next turn use another free action as part of your action to draw it again. It seems that the only limiting nature of all of these S rules is that if you cast a S or V,S spell, your sword isn't available for reactions during the space between your turn and your next turn.
I'm not sure on the specifics of what actions are required to interact with a focus if it isn't your sword or shield. If, for example, you are a druid without War Caster and with a shield, scimitar, and a yew wand, I don't know if you can put away your sword, draw your wand, and cast a spell all in one turn. The material components are clear that you need a free hand, but do not say that you need any type of action to actually use the material components.
For my gish characters, I prefer versatile weapons so I can always make a hand free for spellcasting and still attack of opportunity with 1 hand if I needed to use my interaction.
I disagree with the concept that spells requiring Somatic, but not Material, components requires an entirely free hand. The way the rules are worded seems to indicate that wielding a Spellcasting Focus COUNTS as a free hand, no matter what.
If you are wielding a Spellcasting Focus in one of your hands, that hand is "free" for the purposes of casting Somatic spells, whether they also require Material components or not.
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This very much indicates that the hand you use to perform Somatic components can hold a Spellcasting Focus at the same time. Doesn't leave a lot of lot of room for interpretation.
That's true if going just by the Player's Handbook. But the Sage Advice compendium states by way of rather confusing example that if there's no material component, the hand with a focus needs to drop the focus to do somatic components.
This very much indicates that the hand you use to perform Somatic components can hold a Spellcasting Focus at the same time. Doesn't leave a lot of lot of room for interpretation.
Except that it does. We're all reading the same sentences and some of us are coming to different interpretations.
The way I'm reading it is that you can only use a Spellcasting Focus in the Somatic hand is if the spell has material components. Not at any other time. This is because that sentence is especially in the Materials section of the rule while the Somatic rule explicitly requires a free hand.
So being able to use a material/focus in the Somatic hand is a specific rule overriding the general rule of Somatic requiring a free hand - only in the case of a spell requiring a Material component.
But I've been told I'm wrong in that interpretation just as many times as I've been told I'm right. So I don't know what to think.
This very much indicates that the hand you use to perform Somatic components can hold a Spellcasting Focus at the same time. Doesn't leave a lot of lot of room for interpretation.
Except that it does. We're all reading the same sentences and some of us are coming to different interpretations.
The way I'm reading it is that you can only use a Spellcasting Focus in the Somatic hand is if the spell has material components. Not at any other time. This is because that sentence is especially in the Materials section of the rule while the Somatic rule explicitly requires a free hand.
So being able to use a material/focus in the Somatic hand is a specific rule overriding the general rule of Somatic requiring a free hand - only in the case of a spell requiring a Material component.
But I've been told I'm wrong in that interpretation just as many times as I've been told I'm right. So I don't know what to think.
The issue there is that, absent Sage Advice, there's no reason to expect somatic component rules to change based on the presence or absence of an unrelated component. If holding a focus doesn't impede somatic components when a spell has a material component, it's entirely unreasonable to just expect that it would when there's no material component. The Sage Advice was only necessary to begin with because they didn't bother to mention that one component type can change the rules for another.
All said, it doesn't matter very much either way. The only class this would really affect is Sorcerer using Quickened spell - casting a spell with no Material components and another with Material - and most sorcerers don't tend to keep things in both hands, just a focus in one. Otherwise you can put your focus away as a free action, and draw it again on your next turn as a free action. I suppose the real drawback is you either put your shield away, and affect AC, or put your weapon away (if you can use your weapon as a spellcasting focus, that is) and remove your ability to take Opportunity Attacks.
Still, in my game, I'm going to continue to allow players to use Somatic-but-not-Material spells while wielding their Focus. Just seems silly to me otherwise, why would a simpler spell require you to use LESS magical assistance than a more complicated spell.
The issue there is that, absent Sage Advice, there's no reason to expect somatic component rules to change based on the presence or absence of an unrelated component. If holding a focus doesn't impede somatic components when a spell has a material component, it's entirely unreasonable to just expect that it would when there's no material component. The Sage Advice was only necessary to begin with because they didn't bother to mention that one component type can change the rules for another.
Yea that's something I brought up in reply 18 - it is bizarre that having a material component would change how the spell works with regard to Somatic. But WolfOfTheBees and DxJxC gave good replies to that.
I suppose the real drawback is you either put your shield away, and affect AC, or put your weapon away (if you can use your weapon as a spellcasting focus, that is) and remove your ability to take Opportunity Attacks.
Putting the shield away takes a whole action to do - so there's a big cost there.
The issue there is that, absent Sage Advice, there's no reason to expect somatic component rules to change based on the presence or absence of an unrelated component. If holding a focus doesn't impede somatic components when a spell has a material component, it's entirely unreasonable to just expect that it would when there's no material component. The Sage Advice was only necessary to begin with because they didn't bother to mention that one component type can change the rules for another.
Yea that's something I brought up in reply 18 - it is bizarre that having a material component would change how the spell works with regard to Somatic. But WolfOfTheBees and DxJxC gave good replies to that.
I suppose the real drawback is you either put your shield away, and affect AC, or put your weapon away (if you can use your weapon as a spellcasting focus, that is) and remove your ability to take Opportunity Attacks.
Putting the shield away takes a whole action to do - so there's a big cost there.
You did, we are just being redundant at this point, but I'm just weighing in my opinion for the debate. Their replies were good too, but I personally disagree with them, and with Sage Advice's take on the situation.
That's true about the shield. Putting away weapon/focus would certainly be wiser.
Sage Advice sheds Crawfords take on the situation, but if that were the originally intended case, I would think the wording should be something like "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform the somatic component of the spell."
And not the "but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." That is stated.
The rules for spells that have a somatic component generally state that somatic components require an empty hand.
The rules for spells that have a material component specifically state that you can perform the somatic component with the hand that is holding the material/focus.
Specific beats general, but the material component rules only apply to spells that require a material component.
You are trying to apply rules that don't apply, like bard trying to use a shield with holy symbol as a focus because cleric can do it. The sage advice never changed the rule, they just pointed out that some people were misunderstanding the rules (many people weren't that is why it became a question in the first place).
The rules for spells that have a somatic component generally state that somatic components require an empty hand.
The rules for spells that have a material component specifically state that you can perform the somatic component with the hand that is holding the material/focus.
What's specifically stated, and I quote, is that "A spellcaster must have a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This is is extremely straightforward, and implies that a hand holding a spellcasting focus counts as a free hand for the purposes of spellcasting. It's under the Material component section, sure, but it doesn't at all specify that this doesn't also apply to spells lacking Material components in the core rules.
As I said, if it was worded in a way such as "he or she uses to perform the somatic component" (like you say in what I quoted) then certainly, it could be interpreted differently. But that's not the case, it just straight up says "he or she uses to perform somatic components."
It's under the Material component section, sure, but it doesn't at all specify that this doesn't also apply to spells lacking Material components in the core rules.
But that's not how rules work. A rule in a section applies to that section. Cleric rules don't apply to bards. Why would rules in one section apply to another in this case?
Because it says "A spellcaster must have a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
Meaning a hand holding a Spellcasting Focus can be used to perform Somatic Components. I really don't understand the confusion behind this, it's very straightforward. If it was only for those spells, it would say "he or she uses to perform the somatic component" or "the somatic component of the spell requiring Material components" or whatever.
And section is the wrong word, it's all in the same section - Spellcasting. I should have said under the Material Component header or something.
If you have a S only spell, the rule for your hands is given clearly in the Somatic Components rules: You need a free hand. That last line is in material components, so does not apply at all to spells without material components. If it were to be interpreted otherwise, the clarifications by SA would have said so. You may disagree with it, or wish it were different, but it is in fact written and intended to be that you need a free hand for S spells, and a single hand that can do S and M components for S,M spells.
The rules for spells that have a somatic component generally state that somatic components require an empty hand.
The rules for spells that have a material component specifically state that you can perform the somatic component with the hand that is holding the material/focus.
What's specifically stated, and I quote, is that "A spellcaster must have a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This is is extremely straightforward, and implies that a hand holding a spellcasting focus counts as a free hand for the purposes of spellcasting. It's under the Material component section, sure, but it doesn't at all specify that this doesn't also apply to spells lacking Material components in the core rules.
As I said, if it was worded in a way such as "he or she uses to perform the somatic component" (like you say in what I quoted) then certainly, it could be interpreted differently. But that's not the case, it just straight up says "he or she uses to perform somatic components."
You are correct that the rules that specifically apply to spells with a material component do not specify that they don't apply to spells that do not apply to spells that don't have a material component. But then again, the features granted to a level 20 fighter do not say they aren't granted to a level 1 rogue.
I don't know why it is so hard to understand that the rules for a subset of spells does not apply to all spells. That is why it is desceibed in the section about material components and not the section about somatic components. It is because only material spells require a material or focus, and they wanted to specify that you do not need 2 hands dedicated to casting material + somatic spells. It does not effect spells without a material component.
I know I've repeated myself a lot, but this whole conversation has been one side arguing that 1=2 because 1+2=1+2 when it clearly does not. This is the level of logic this argument relies on. Faulty logic. And I (and some others) have repeatedly pointed out not only what the corect ruling is, but why it is the correct ruling, the RAW ruling and the RAI ruling, no erratas necessary.
Except that's not true. I'm going to post the relevant section from the rules to clarify this as best I can, I'll cut out what's not important and embolden what is.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to ... hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
If you still disagree with me based on that, well... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. DxJxC says that "The sage advice never changed the rule, they just pointed out that some people were misunderstanding the rules" but I disagree with that entirely, what's stated in Sage Advice is changing the above rules which clearly state that a hand holding a spellcasting focus can be used to perform somatic components and doesn't specify in any way that this is only for spells with Material Components. That emboldened line is all that's important in this argument.
Or, for example, an S spell requires that you draw a shape in the air with your fingers in a certain position, while an S,M spell requires drawing a shape with the components held in that hand (maybe also held in a particular way in that hand).
I'm not certain, and that's all roleplay really. But as far as rules go, S (without M) spells require no materials or focus in the hand doing the somatic gestures (per the rules on somatic components).
I think it is more like the material component channels the magic through the focus (whether or not moving the focus in any particular way is needed) and spells without the material component are disrupted by items in hand.
And the war caster feat is learning how to channel the magic around weapons.
So a player without War Caster and using a Sword and Shield where the Sword is their spellcasting focus would have to either doff their shield or sheath/drop their sword in order to cast:
And every other spell would function just fine - is that right?
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I think so in that case. And my understanding of free actions is that you can sheath your sword using a free action as part of an action (to cast a spell, perhaps?) and then on your next turn use another free action as part of your action to draw it again. It seems that the only limiting nature of all of these S rules is that if you cast a S or V,S spell, your sword isn't available for reactions during the space between your turn and your next turn.
I'm not sure on the specifics of what actions are required to interact with a focus if it isn't your sword or shield. If, for example, you are a druid without War Caster and with a shield, scimitar, and a yew wand, I don't know if you can put away your sword, draw your wand, and cast a spell all in one turn. The material components are clear that you need a free hand, but do not say that you need any type of action to actually use the material components.
For my gish characters, I prefer versatile weapons so I can always make a hand free for spellcasting and still attack of opportunity with 1 hand if I needed to use my interaction.
I disagree with the concept that spells requiring Somatic, but not Material, components requires an entirely free hand. The way the rules are worded seems to indicate that wielding a Spellcasting Focus COUNTS as a free hand, no matter what.
If you are wielding a Spellcasting Focus in one of your hands, that hand is "free" for the purposes of casting Somatic spells, whether they also require Material components or not.
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This very much indicates that the hand you use to perform Somatic components can hold a Spellcasting Focus at the same time. Doesn't leave a lot of lot of room for interpretation.
That's true if going just by the Player's Handbook. But the Sage Advice compendium states by way of rather confusing example that if there's no material component, the hand with a focus needs to drop the focus to do somatic components.
Except that it does. We're all reading the same sentences and some of us are coming to different interpretations.
The way I'm reading it is that you can only use a Spellcasting Focus in the Somatic hand is if the spell has material components. Not at any other time. This is because that sentence is especially in the Materials section of the rule while the Somatic rule explicitly requires a free hand.
So being able to use a material/focus in the Somatic hand is a specific rule overriding the general rule of Somatic requiring a free hand - only in the case of a spell requiring a Material component.
But I've been told I'm wrong in that interpretation just as many times as I've been told I'm right. So I don't know what to think.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I suppose so. As with half the crap in Sage Advice, that's just silly. Hate when they backtrack on things stated in the core books.
The issue there is that, absent Sage Advice, there's no reason to expect somatic component rules to change based on the presence or absence of an unrelated component. If holding a focus doesn't impede somatic components when a spell has a material component, it's entirely unreasonable to just expect that it would when there's no material component. The Sage Advice was only necessary to begin with because they didn't bother to mention that one component type can change the rules for another.
All said, it doesn't matter very much either way. The only class this would really affect is Sorcerer using Quickened spell - casting a spell with no Material components and another with Material - and most sorcerers don't tend to keep things in both hands, just a focus in one. Otherwise you can put your focus away as a free action, and draw it again on your next turn as a free action. I suppose the real drawback is you either put your shield away, and affect AC, or put your weapon away (if you can use your weapon as a spellcasting focus, that is) and remove your ability to take Opportunity Attacks.
Still, in my game, I'm going to continue to allow players to use Somatic-but-not-Material spells while wielding their Focus. Just seems silly to me otherwise, why would a simpler spell require you to use LESS magical assistance than a more complicated spell.
Yea that's something I brought up in reply 18 - it is bizarre that having a material component would change how the spell works with regard to Somatic. But WolfOfTheBees and DxJxC gave good replies to that.
Putting the shield away takes a whole action to do - so there's a big cost there.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
You did, we are just being redundant at this point, but I'm just weighing in my opinion for the debate. Their replies were good too, but I personally disagree with them, and with Sage Advice's take on the situation.
That's true about the shield. Putting away weapon/focus would certainly be wiser.
Sage Advice sheds Crawfords take on the situation, but if that were the originally intended case, I would think the wording should be something like
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform the somatic component of the spell."
And not the
"but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
That is stated.
This is all very simple.
The rules for spells that have a somatic component generally state that somatic components require an empty hand.
The rules for spells that have a material component specifically state that you can perform the somatic component with the hand that is holding the material/focus.
Specific beats general, but the material component rules only apply to spells that require a material component.
You are trying to apply rules that don't apply, like bard trying to use a shield with holy symbol as a focus because cleric can do it. The sage advice never changed the rule, they just pointed out that some people were misunderstanding the rules (many people weren't that is why it became a question in the first place).
What's specifically stated, and I quote, is that "A spellcaster must have a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This is is extremely straightforward, and implies that a hand holding a spellcasting focus counts as a free hand for the purposes of spellcasting. It's under the Material component section, sure, but it doesn't at all specify that this doesn't also apply to spells lacking Material components in the core rules.
As I said, if it was worded in a way such as "he or she uses to perform the somatic component" (like you say in what I quoted) then certainly, it could be interpreted differently. But that's not the case, it just straight up says "he or she uses to perform somatic components."
But that's not how rules work. A rule in a section applies to that section. Cleric rules don't apply to bards. Why would rules in one section apply to another in this case?
I feel like a broken record at this point.
Because it says "A spellcaster must have a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
Meaning a hand holding a Spellcasting Focus can be used to perform Somatic Components. I really don't understand the confusion behind this, it's very straightforward. If it was only for those spells, it would say "he or she uses to perform the somatic component" or "the somatic component of the spell requiring Material components" or whatever.
And section is the wrong word, it's all in the same section - Spellcasting. I should have said under the Material Component header or something.
If you have a S only spell, the rule for your hands is given clearly in the Somatic Components rules: You need a free hand. That last line is in material components, so does not apply at all to spells without material components. If it were to be interpreted otherwise, the clarifications by SA would have said so. You may disagree with it, or wish it were different, but it is in fact written and intended to be that you need a free hand for S spells, and a single hand that can do S and M components for S,M spells.
You are correct that the rules that specifically apply to spells with a material component do not specify that they don't apply to spells that do not apply to spells that don't have a material component. But then again, the features granted to a level 20 fighter do not say they aren't granted to a level 1 rogue.
I don't know why it is so hard to understand that the rules for a subset of spells does not apply to all spells. That is why it is desceibed in the section about material components and not the section about somatic components. It is because only material spells require a material or focus, and they wanted to specify that you do not need 2 hands dedicated to casting material + somatic spells. It does not effect spells without a material component.
I know I've repeated myself a lot, but this whole conversation has been one side arguing that 1=2 because 1+2=1+2 when it clearly does not. This is the level of logic this argument relies on. Faulty logic. And I (and some others) have repeatedly pointed out not only what the corect ruling is, but why it is the correct ruling, the RAW ruling and the RAI ruling, no erratas necessary.
Except that's not true. I'm going to post the relevant section from the rules to clarify this as best I can, I'll cut out what's not important and embolden what is.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to ... hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
If you still disagree with me based on that, well... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. DxJxC says that "The sage advice never changed the rule, they just pointed out that some people were misunderstanding the rules" but I disagree with that entirely, what's stated in Sage Advice is changing the above rules which clearly state that a hand holding a spellcasting focus can be used to perform somatic components and doesn't specify in any way that this is only for spells with Material Components. That emboldened line is all that's important in this argument.