The rules in fact do specify that the hand holding a focus can perform somatic components is for spells with material components by the fact that the statement is in the description of material components. I know that no amount of re-stating is going to get you to see that, but rules apply to the things that they describe. Sentences in the text describing material components apply to spells with material components (no matter how loosely they're worded).
If i had a S only spell, I would read the S rules, and if I had my focus and shield out, I would put one away because (as you have quoted) I " must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."
Edit: in summary, headings matter. where rules are stated matters.
The S components rules state the requirements, but the M rules state that you can perform S components with a spellcasting focus in hand. I don't see why you guys think it has to be separate, plenty of things throughout the books work off each other. It's not like the Opportunity Attack rules are written under Movement, it's a separate section of rules you reference when Movement happens in a totally different part of the chapter. Same as, when you're using a Spellcasting Focus, you reference the part of the rules that are related to them, and those rules state that you can perform Somatic components while wielding a Focus.
We are just butting heads at this point, I certainly don't mind if that's how you want to interpret it. I'm just putting my opinion on it all out there for anyone who may come looking through this thread for answers. 5e is meant to be played your way, if that's how you interpret it that's totally fine.
I'm just putting my opinion on it all out there for anyone who may come looking through this thread for answers.
But your opinion is at odds with RAW (material component rules apply to material component spells) and RAI (per sage advice). I don't see how this could be helpful.
You don't understand why you would have to reference different parts of the book(s) when looking for things related to information not specifically stated in one part? Doing that is basically DnD in a nutshell my friend.
That's so very irrelevant. Those aren't even in the same book, let alone the same Chapter or Section.
As I've said, the very clear statement of "a spellcaster has to have a hand free to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand used to perform somatic components" is all that matters, and what header it is under is completely irrelevant, the Section and Chapter is what's important. It's all part of the Components Section of the Spellcasting Chapter, and it's very straightforward. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but it couldn't be more clear.
If they have a hand free, and a Component Pouch on their belt, would you say they can still cast Somatic components of spells that don't require material components? Wielding a focus is the same thing.
Because it is in text describing one part of the game (spells with M components) and you are applying it to another (spells without M components). If a focus could perform somatic components for spells not requiring materials, then it would have been mentioned in the Somatic section (which should be all that you need to understand in order to cast spells with S components). It is not that way, so we have to go under the assumption that rules under "material" apply to spells with M.
The other fact that contributes to my opinion is that there are many spells that require V, S, M components, but also many spells that require just V, M components (Featherfall, Light, Darkness, etc.) What would be the point of that, there would be no reason to separate them. One would be totally unnecessary and they should all just be V, M or V, S, M.
I suppose you could argue that you could still cast those spells when you can't move but have your Focus in hand, but how the hell are you supposed to cast them if you can't move and have just a component pouch? RAW you would still be able to, which makes no sense.
All in all, if that really IS the intention... it's pretty dumb.
I don't know mechanically. Obviously there is a flavor difference.
Don't both VSM and VM (under either rule interpretation) just require one hand and a focus or materials in that hand, the difference being how much one has to move the M part around? (so under either interpretation, V,S,M and V,M are pretty similar, the difference is really V,S vs V,S,M).
So yes, if your hands are tied, no S. But if you could get your hands on your focus, one could say that you might be able to get hands on your component pouch to cast V,M spells. Apparently either way, you're adept at using the pouch one handed according to the rules (they ARE pretty clear that you need only one hand to deal with it).
Except that's not true. I'm going to clarify this as best I can, I'll cut out what's not important and embolden what is.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to ... hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components
...this is only for spells with Material Components. That emboldened line is all that's important in this argument.
I'm glad context doesn't matter, it makes arguments easier.
But seriously, context matters. Opportunity attacks are described under melee attacks because they are a melee attack, but they are mentioned under movement because they are relevant to movement.
Somatic components don't mention focuses, because they are not relevant to somatic spells. Material components mention somatic components, because you may need to perform a somatic component for material spells, the rule is for material spells.
Somatic spells require an empty hand. Material spells require something in your hand. There is a contradiction there, so an exception was added to the most relevant rule. But they are 2 sets of rules for 2 different components, you do not apply any part of the rule if the spell does not have that component.
Simple If/then. If somatic spell, then somatic rules. If material spell, then material rules. If both, then both rules, and material rules have an augment to somatic rules, but it is a rule that only applies if both.
(Also, the SA compendium PDF is official RAW, not opinion RAI like tweets. Of a rule needed to be changed, it would be errata. When a rule is already RAW, but confusing, it goes in SA compendium.)
Thanks for including something that both I didn't say and the rules don't say in your quote, I guess. Certainly a good way to prove a point.
To use your format of speaking: Somatic spells require an empty hand. Material components require an empty hand to use the material(in whatever form it may be), and that same empty hand can be used for Somatic components even while holding the Material. THAT'S what the rules say.
Simple If/Then: If somatic spell, then you need a free hand. If you're wielding a Material component, then it counts as a free hand for Somatic components.
Edit:. I really just don't get where you guys are coming from with most of these arguments, particularly you, DxJxC.
Nowhere in the rules does it say "ignore one portion of the rules unless the same terms are stated in redundancy elsewhere"
What IS stated in the rules, as you DxJxC have already pointed out, is that "specific rules outweigh general rules."
The rules SPECIFICALLY SAY that Somatic components can be performed with the hand in which you wield a spellcasting focus, and despite whatever you want to make up, they do NOT say that this only applies to spells requiring Material components. Your only real argument is "it's not repeated in redundancy literally a paragraph apart" which... Whatever.
The only changes I made to that quote was cut out some extra stuff and change the bold. It is all stuff you said, in the order you said it. My point was just that context matters. The bold "Material (M)" at the beginning of the rule matters.
Why would the any rule need to say that it doesn't apply outside of its designated jurisdiction?
The rules for material component spells say that you can perform somatic components while holding the material or focus needed for that spell. My argument is not that it isn't repeated in somatic rules, my argument is that if it applied to all somatic spells it would have only been stated in somatic rules instead.
And the official SA compendium released by WotC confirms that this is what the rules mean. Not that they are changing them, but that it is what they are.
It is no more complicated than matching words and reading instructions. M=M, M≠S.
Why are you lying? I didn't say ...this is only for spells with Material Component in that part of the post, and when I did say that earlier I was saying if it DID say that, what you're saying would make sense, but it doesn't.
And you're right, it isn't more complicated than matching words and reading instructions. M=M, S can be done while wielding M.
I'll concede that it appears RAI is the way you're describing it, but that is in no way how it is written. It doesn't say to disregard that anywhere, and the sentence "A spellcaster must have a hand free to ... hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components" is one of the only explanations of how Focus' work in the entire book. As I've said, if it did elaborate and say something like the "This is only for spells with Material Components" that you're making up, then that would be the case, but it DOESN'T.
Are there any other places in the PHB where you need to know the rules governing a feature not at use (material components) in order to understand one that is (casting a spell with a somatic component) and that rule isn't referred to specifically?
For example, Paralyzed rules require knowing Incapacitated rules, but that is explicitly called out in Paralyzed.
If you still disagree with me based on that, well... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. DxJxC says that "The sage advice never changed the rule, they just pointed out that some people were misunderstanding the rules" but I disagree with that entirely, what's stated in Sage Advice is changing the above rules which clearly state that a hand holding a spellcasting focus can be used to perform somatic componentsand doesn't specify in any way that this is only for spells with Material Components. That emboldened line is all that's important in this argument.
Here it is in context since you couldn't find it for some reason. I haven't lied once during this discussion (I even said I quoted you out of context).
There you have it. If it's in the PHB and errata doesn't change it, that's as official as it gets.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree. Sage advice is often wrong compared to the core rules.
The rules in fact do specify that the hand holding a focus can perform somatic components is for spells with material components by the fact that the statement is in the description of material components. I know that no amount of re-stating is going to get you to see that, but rules apply to the things that they describe. Sentences in the text describing material components apply to spells with material components (no matter how loosely they're worded).
If i had a S only spell, I would read the S rules, and if I had my focus and shield out, I would put one away because (as you have quoted) I " must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."
Edit: in summary, headings matter. where rules are stated matters.
The S components rules state the requirements, but the M rules state that you can perform S components with a spellcasting focus in hand. I don't see why you guys think it has to be separate, plenty of things throughout the books work off each other. It's not like the Opportunity Attack rules are written under Movement, it's a separate section of rules you reference when Movement happens in a totally different part of the chapter. Same as, when you're using a Spellcasting Focus, you reference the part of the rules that are related to them, and those rules state that you can perform Somatic components while wielding a Focus.
We are just butting heads at this point, I certainly don't mind if that's how you want to interpret it. I'm just putting my opinion on it all out there for anyone who may come looking through this thread for answers. 5e is meant to be played your way, if that's how you interpret it that's totally fine.
I don't understand why anyone would think a sentence under one heading would apply to anything except
But your opinion is at odds with RAW (material component rules apply to material component spells) and RAI (per sage advice). I don't see how this could be helpful.
You don't understand why you would have to reference different parts of the book(s) when looking for things related to information not specifically stated in one part?
Doing that is basically DnD in a nutshell my friend.
No, I don't understand why rules that don't apply (if casting a spell without material components) should be thought to apply.
You don't use the Wolf"s bite ability when your non-wolf PC wants to bite an enemy, do you?
That's so very irrelevant. Those aren't even in the same book, let alone the same Chapter or Section.
As I've said, the very clear statement of "a spellcaster has to have a hand free to hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand used to perform somatic components" is all that matters, and what header it is under is completely irrelevant, the Section and Chapter is what's important. It's all part of the Components Section of the Spellcasting Chapter, and it's very straightforward. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but it couldn't be more clear.
If they have a hand free, and a Component Pouch on their belt, would you say they can still cast Somatic components of spells that don't require material components? Wielding a focus is the same thing.
So it is the proximity of the sentences that's got you confused? Taking sentences out of context certainly can change their meaning.
How am I taking "you can use the hand you're holding a spellcasting focus in to cast Somatic components" out of context, exactly?
Sorry, I'm done, this is just getting ridiculous.
Because it is in text describing one part of the game (spells with M components) and you are applying it to another (spells without M components). If a focus could perform somatic components for spells not requiring materials, then it would have been mentioned in the Somatic section (which should be all that you need to understand in order to cast spells with S components). It is not that way, so we have to go under the assumption that rules under "material" apply to spells with M.
I guess. I still think that's extremely silly.
The other fact that contributes to my opinion is that there are many spells that require V, S, M components, but also many spells that require just V, M components (Featherfall, Light, Darkness, etc.) What would be the point of that, there would be no reason to separate them. One would be totally unnecessary and they should all just be V, M or V, S, M.
I suppose you could argue that you could still cast those spells when you can't move but have your Focus in hand, but how the hell are you supposed to cast them if you can't move and have just a component pouch? RAW you would still be able to, which makes no sense.
All in all, if that really IS the intention... it's pretty dumb.
I don't know mechanically. Obviously there is a flavor difference.
Don't both VSM and VM (under either rule interpretation) just require one hand and a focus or materials in that hand, the difference being how much one has to move the M part around? (so under either interpretation, V,S,M and V,M are pretty similar, the difference is really V,S vs V,S,M).
So yes, if your hands are tied, no S. But if you could get your hands on your focus, one could say that you might be able to get hands on your component pouch to cast V,M spells. Apparently either way, you're adept at using the pouch one handed according to the rules (they ARE pretty clear that you need only one hand to deal with it).
I'm glad context doesn't matter, it makes arguments easier.
But seriously, context matters. Opportunity attacks are described under melee attacks because they are a melee attack, but they are mentioned under movement because they are relevant to movement.
Somatic components don't mention focuses, because they are not relevant to somatic spells. Material components mention somatic components, because you may need to perform a somatic component for material spells, the rule is for material spells.
Somatic spells require an empty hand. Material spells require something in your hand. There is a contradiction there, so an exception was added to the most relevant rule. But they are 2 sets of rules for 2 different components, you do not apply any part of the rule if the spell does not have that component.
Simple If/then. If somatic spell, then somatic rules. If material spell, then material rules. If both, then both rules, and material rules have an augment to somatic rules, but it is a rule that only applies if both.
(Also, the SA compendium PDF is official RAW, not opinion RAI like tweets. Of a rule needed to be changed, it would be errata. When a rule is already RAW, but confusing, it goes in SA compendium.)
Thanks for including something that both I didn't say and the rules don't say in your quote, I guess. Certainly a good way to prove a point.
To use your format of speaking:
Somatic spells require an empty hand. Material components require an empty hand to use the material(in whatever form it may be), and that same empty hand can be used for Somatic components even while holding the Material. THAT'S what the rules say.
Simple If/Then: If somatic spell, then you need a free hand. If you're wielding a Material component, then it counts as a free hand for Somatic components.
Edit:. I really just don't get where you guys are coming from with most of these arguments, particularly you, DxJxC.
Nowhere in the rules does it say "ignore one portion of the rules unless the same terms are stated in redundancy elsewhere"
What IS stated in the rules, as you DxJxC have already pointed out, is that "specific rules outweigh general rules."
The rules SPECIFICALLY SAY that Somatic components can be performed with the hand in which you wield a spellcasting focus, and despite whatever you want to make up, they do NOT say that this only applies to spells requiring Material components. Your only real argument is "it's not repeated in redundancy literally a paragraph apart" which... Whatever.
The only changes I made to that quote was cut out some extra stuff and change the bold. It is all stuff you said, in the order you said it. My point was just that context matters. The bold "Material (M)" at the beginning of the rule matters.
Why would the any rule need to say that it doesn't apply outside of its designated jurisdiction?
The rules for material component spells say that you can perform somatic components while holding the material or focus needed for that spell. My argument is not that it isn't repeated in somatic rules, my argument is that if it applied to all somatic spells it would have only been stated in somatic rules instead.
And the official SA compendium released by WotC confirms that this is what the rules mean. Not that they are changing them, but that it is what they are.
It is no more complicated than matching words and reading instructions. M=M, M≠S.
Why are you lying? I didn't say ...this is only for spells with Material Component in that part of the post, and when I did say that earlier I was saying if it DID say that, what you're saying would make sense, but it doesn't.
And you're right, it isn't more complicated than matching words and reading instructions. M=M, S can be done while wielding M.
I'll concede that it appears RAI is the way you're describing it, but that is in no way how it is written. It doesn't say to disregard that anywhere, and the sentence "A spellcaster must have a hand free to ... hold a spellcasting focus but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components" is one of the only explanations of how Focus' work in the entire book. As I've said, if it did elaborate and say something like the "This is only for spells with Material Components" that you're making up, then that would be the case, but it DOESN'T.
Are there any other places in the PHB where you need to know the rules governing a feature not at use (material components) in order to understand one that is (casting a spell with a somatic component) and that rule isn't referred to specifically?
For example, Paralyzed rules require knowing Incapacitated rules, but that is explicitly called out in Paralyzed.
Here it is in context since you couldn't find it for some reason. I haven't lied once during this discussion (I even said I quoted you out of context).
Are you not reading that sentence properly? I'm saying it DOESN'T say that. You're quoting me as though I'm saying it does.