I have a very simple understanding of passive perception, that is, it's basically how aware you are or how much details you notice without thinking about it.
So how would you folk treat a character who has a passive perception of 22? Does nothing get by him without his knowledge or ?? Idk?
What FoxfireInferno suggests is growing more common, but really it's up to the DM how they want to use Passive checks (if at all) in their game.
I am personally pretty old school and have my players roll for everything; I figure more perceptive players demonstrate that by having a higher Perception score, and that works just fine. If I had a player with the Observant feat or something, I may reconsider... but I currently don't.
The only times I really use passives is when all my players roll like dirt but I wanted at least one person to notice something; I'll then ask for/check their passives.
Just use the rules as written. If the DC for finding something or someone is 22 or less, he simply succeeds.
This is only true if the character was passively looking for something. Such as "I keep an eye out for traps and hidden passages in this dungeon."
That's not passive. That is making an active, concerted effort to observe anything out of the ordinary in their surroundings.
True. But it is directly in line of what passive checks are for as described in DMG: "the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again"
Passive checks are for when the character is active and the player is passive. If the character is passive, the check should be active on the part of the player as it's the more variable chance that they happen to notice something.
Just use the rules as written. If the DC for finding something or someone is 22 or less, he simply succeeds.
This is only true if the character was passively looking for something. Such as "I keep an eye out for traps and hidden passages in this dungeon."
That's not passive. That is making an active, concerted effort to observe anything out of the ordinary in their surroundings.
True. But it is directly in line of what passive checks are for as described in DMG: "the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again"
This is how I play it. If there is no even token attempt at perception by the character, PP doesn’t apply. Such attempts will generally gave an impact, as well. Cost of time / pace being typical.
What FoxfireInferno suggests is growing more common, but really it's up to the DM how they want to use Passive checks (if at all) in their game.
I am personally pretty old school and have my players roll for everything; I figure more perceptive players demonstrate that by having a higher Perception score, and that works just fine. If I had a player with the Observant feat or something, I may reconsider... but I currently don't.
The only times I really use passives is when all my players roll like dirt but I wanted at least one person to notice something; I'll then ask for/check their passives.
I don't use passive stats either. I actually have each character's Perception modifier listed on the DM screen and will roll in secret while the players role play. If a player states that they want to listen at a door or something similar I have them roll.
My thoughts on Passive Perception... I think that if you have a Passive Perception that is so high (especially above a 20) Your DM should allow your character specifically to trigger an active Perception roll in times when you don't actively declare it. Like... if your characters all enter a room and forget to declare that you're searching for traps, the DM might ask any character with a high enough PP that they would have seen the trap if they were actively searching for it to roll for Perception (like if it has a DC of 18 to see). If the player fails the Perception Roll, the DM doesn't tell them what it's for and they trigger the trap.
A hard ability check is a DC of 20. A very hard ability check is a DC of 25. Someone with a passive perception of 22, at my table at least, would automatically notice all details of a room, minor hidden doors and creatures, and traps that were not set by an expert. One of the characters in the party I DM has a passive perception of 16, but gets advantage on perception checks related to sound and smell. When it comes to detecting things like hidden creatures or mechanical traps, that character is usually going to effectively have a passive perception of 21 so I have a little bit of experience dealing with that level.
The clearest way my DM has said to me about Passive Perception:
"Passive perception allows you to notice things faster than others, but not necessarily having the capability to do anything about it."
Passive perception to some is like the base; You have a passive perception of 22, so technically anything you roll that would be lower than that would count as a 22 from the RAI standpoint. You you perceive a lot, but that quantity of things could be entirely negligible as opposed to the quality of information or ability to deal with what it is you've perceived. This is compounded by other effects including but not limited to having other senses dulled, disadvantages, countermeasures to ensure you don't have advantage, and of course the DC.
So then what is the point of rolling for perception with such a high passive?
As an example, excluding too many variables, you know that what you perceive is there, but the information may not be, that is where the other checks could or do come into place. Maybe your intelligence is very low, so you know what you see is a trap, but aren't smart enough to know not to trigger it benignly. Your hearing is amazing, so you can hear the crack of a stick at 1,000 yards, but you're stone drunk off your arse and your vision is so blurry you couldn't see your own stein is empty.
"It's a trap."
-=pokes with finger and is sprayed with pressurized salt acid=-
"That was a trap. I might be melting..."
There seems to be a lot of debate around this topic, but as long as there is a balance versus such high perception encounters it never seems to be a major issue in my experience.
I think the rules usage and intent is pretty clear. It is an easy and quick mechanic for the DM to use that can allow a character to perform frequent mundane tasks or as a stat to check against when the DM doesn't want to declare an active check for whatever reason. I don't see passives as a player tool, if their character knows a skill roll is involved, they should roll and accept the possibility of a good or bad result.
If you want to see how my DM took into account a character with a super high passive perception (Please say hi to Roc, my Aarakocra Inquisitor Rogue) then you can watch James Introcaso DM the Demonplauge campaign. There's 40 episodes, but if you want to skip around Roc's perception starts to get ridiculous in the last 15 or so episodes.
As a player who had a character who's perception and insight were defining traits, it felt really good every time my character just SAW things. So while I understand how dealing with a high passive perception character can be a challenge, remember that chances are that player is going to get a kick out of being useful. Just like any other amazing talent the party has, it's good to let that player have those moments. We worked for that skill, and you turning to the player and saying "Because you're so perceptive YOU see..." will always feel awesome. Enjoy offering those moments to your player.
But you want to have SOME surprises, right? You can make things invisible, or behind total cover. You can create a situation where there's no time to react...if we're running into the room there might not be time to avoid the trap even if I see it.
Also, as others have pointed out, just because a character notices something doesn't mean they can do anything about it. This spreads the success wealth around: Roc notices the magical glyph no one else can see, but she has no arcane talents and must help the wizard find and disarm it. Roc can see the beam about to crack and break to bring the ceiling down, but she's not strong enough to push it back into place and must direct the barbarian how to move it.
If you use that talent as a tool to promote teamwork, and less about a DM "gotcha" moment you and your players will have more fun!
I have a very simple understanding of passive perception, that is, it's basically how aware you are or how much details you notice without thinking about it.
So how would you folk treat a character who has a passive perception of 22? Does nothing get by him without his knowledge or ?? Idk?
What do you think?
Just use the rules as written. If the DC for finding something or someone is 22 or less, he simply succeeds.
That isn't actually RAW, that's just what Jeremy Crawford has said to do in tweets/interviews.
RAW on Passive checks is vague and weird: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#PassiveChecks
What FoxfireInferno suggests is growing more common, but really it's up to the DM how they want to use Passive checks (if at all) in their game.
I am personally pretty old school and have my players roll for everything; I figure more perceptive players demonstrate that by having a higher Perception score, and that works just fine. If I had a player with the Observant feat or something, I may reconsider... but I currently don't.
The only times I really use passives is when all my players roll like dirt but I wanted at least one person to notice something; I'll then ask for/check their passives.
This is only true if the character was passively looking for something. Such as "I keep an eye out for traps and hidden passages in this dungeon."
That's not passive. That is making an active, concerted effort to observe anything out of the ordinary in their surroundings.
True. But it is directly in line of what passive checks are for as described in DMG: "the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again"
Passive checks are for when the character is active and the player is passive. If the character is passive, the check should be active on the part of the player as it's the more variable chance that they happen to notice something.
Please slow down. You can only blow my mind so many times in quick succession.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is how I play it. If there is no even token attempt at perception by the character, PP doesn’t apply. Such attempts will generally gave an impact, as well. Cost of time / pace being typical.
I don't use passive stats either. I actually have each character's Perception modifier listed on the DM screen and will roll in secret while the players role play. If a player states that they want to listen at a door or something similar I have them roll.
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My thoughts on Passive Perception... I think that if you have a Passive Perception that is so high (especially above a 20) Your DM should allow your character specifically to trigger an active Perception roll in times when you don't actively declare it. Like... if your characters all enter a room and forget to declare that you're searching for traps, the DM might ask any character with a high enough PP that they would have seen the trap if they were actively searching for it to roll for Perception (like if it has a DC of 18 to see). If the player fails the Perception Roll, the DM doesn't tell them what it's for and they trigger the trap.
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A hard ability check is a DC of 20. A very hard ability check is a DC of 25. Someone with a passive perception of 22, at my table at least, would automatically notice all details of a room, minor hidden doors and creatures, and traps that were not set by an expert. One of the characters in the party I DM has a passive perception of 16, but gets advantage on perception checks related to sound and smell. When it comes to detecting things like hidden creatures or mechanical traps, that character is usually going to effectively have a passive perception of 21 so I have a little bit of experience dealing with that level.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The clearest way my DM has said to me about Passive Perception:
"Passive perception allows you to notice things faster than others, but not necessarily having the capability to do anything about it."
Passive perception to some is like the base; You have a passive perception of 22, so technically anything you roll that would be lower than that would count as a 22 from the RAI standpoint. You you perceive a lot, but that quantity of things could be entirely negligible as opposed to the quality of information or ability to deal with what it is you've perceived. This is compounded by other effects including but not limited to having other senses dulled, disadvantages, countermeasures to ensure you don't have advantage, and of course the DC.
So then what is the point of rolling for perception with such a high passive?
As an example, excluding too many variables, you know that what you perceive is there, but the information may not be, that is where the other checks could or do come into place. Maybe your intelligence is very low, so you know what you see is a trap, but aren't smart enough to know not to trigger it benignly. Your hearing is amazing, so you can hear the crack of a stick at 1,000 yards, but you're stone drunk off your arse and your vision is so blurry you couldn't see your own stein is empty.
"It's a trap."
-=pokes with finger and is sprayed with pressurized salt acid=-
"That was a trap. I might be melting..."
There seems to be a lot of debate around this topic, but as long as there is a balance versus such high perception encounters it never seems to be a major issue in my experience.
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I think the rules usage and intent is pretty clear. It is an easy and quick mechanic for the DM to use that can allow a character to perform frequent mundane tasks or as a stat to check against when the DM doesn't want to declare an active check for whatever reason. I don't see passives as a player tool, if their character knows a skill roll is involved, they should roll and accept the possibility of a good or bad result.
If you want to see how my DM took into account a character with a super high passive perception (Please say hi to Roc, my Aarakocra Inquisitor Rogue) then you can watch James Introcaso DM the Demonplauge campaign. There's 40 episodes, but if you want to skip around Roc's perception starts to get ridiculous in the last 15 or so episodes.
As a player who had a character who's perception and insight were defining traits, it felt really good every time my character just SAW things. So while I understand how dealing with a high passive perception character can be a challenge, remember that chances are that player is going to get a kick out of being useful. Just like any other amazing talent the party has, it's good to let that player have those moments. We worked for that skill, and you turning to the player and saying "Because you're so perceptive YOU see..." will always feel awesome. Enjoy offering those moments to your player.
But you want to have SOME surprises, right? You can make things invisible, or behind total cover. You can create a situation where there's no time to react...if we're running into the room there might not be time to avoid the trap even if I see it.
Also, as others have pointed out, just because a character notices something doesn't mean they can do anything about it. This spreads the success wealth around: Roc notices the magical glyph no one else can see, but she has no arcane talents and must help the wizard find and disarm it. Roc can see the beam about to crack and break to bring the ceiling down, but she's not strong enough to push it back into place and must direct the barbarian how to move it.
If you use that talent as a tool to promote teamwork, and less about a DM "gotcha" moment you and your players will have more fun!
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