Sometimes I feel like sage advice isn’t RAI, but rather “Rules As (Jeremy Crawford) Interpreted.” If I read the Pact Magic section of the Multiclassing rules, I might say that you can only cast spells with pact magic slots (since that is all that is described in that section) so flexible casting is out. Of course there is a Sage Advice that conflicts with this. But if it comes down to fun of others and spotlight time and a coffeelock creating problems at a table, I might be inclined to rule this way anyway.
”Coffeelock” is perfectly within the rules mostly because Jeremy Crawford says so. I feel like another interpretation like mine is perfectly reasonable too (though not important because I’m not JC).
It's definitely all up to the discretion of the DM. I think, though, that if any player is intending to Coffeelock they should probably inform their DM ahead of time... It's better not to spring a deliberate min/max, loosey-goosey interpretation of the rules on the DM suddenly and throw off the balance of the campaign for the other players... and at the same time if a DM is going to restrict something like this it's better that the player know ahead of time so that they don't waste all their time in-game prepping for a specific build that isn't allowed at that table.
It's not like Tome Pact Sorclocks with Aspect of the Moon aren't awesome in their own right. Or like they're stuck with Aspect of the Moon if they try to surprise their DM with coffee shenanery and she says no. But yeah, if you're going to play the kind of rules-twisty weirdness that says "I can turn one long rest into a dozen free spell slots I carry until the next time I long rest - which I never do," you should really, really clear that with your DM first.
Lore Bard / Abjuration Wiz / Divination Wiz wins in caster vs caster duels imo. Flexibility in spell selection, high counterspell rolls, self shields, and ability to control opponents rolls make these my favorite straight up caster classes. A nod definitely goes to Sorc for being the only class that can stealthily cast spells and with high charisma makes them really fantastic for RP campaigns.
Ok I wont make a huge long post. But I ran like 2 days of math, then my group did a weekend & play tested my custom level 1 "Deadly Encounters" adventure module. * It for 3 to 5 1st level PC's & features a "Get my this McGuffin" quest to a tomb. On the way to crypt there is an encounter with a pack of 5x wolves when party stops to rest. Note its the only "traveling" encounter. Party will reach crypt by morning. Crypt has a Trapped entrance in 1st room, goes to 2nd room with 5x Rat swarms encounter. This room has a puzzle door leading to lower floor. Lower floor 1st room: encounter with 5x Skeletons encounter, this room has trapped locked door to boss room. 2nd room has Minotaur Skeleton in a cloak of protection (the boss)
Ok thats that. We ran 6 times (2 each class: sorcerer/warlock/wizard) it with fighter/cleric/rouge/xxx and the results were very telling.
On both of wizard tests, Envoker Wizard was downed 4 times & out right killed once (1 big hit). The Draconic Sorcerer did far better, only being downed once. The natural ac & extra 1hp helped. The Fiend patron Warlock, also did very well. No down & no deaths. More HP, AC, Dark Ones Blessing, REALLY helped. Note the warlock played less "mage" & more "spell-sword"
So "best" is depending on flavor you want. Suitability & "non-spell" combat = warlock > sorcerer > wizard But for pure spell choice/number & EVENTUAL peak "spell casting" power its: wizard > sorcerer > warlock
I hope thats useful. NOTE MY TEST WAS A LEVEL 1 "DEADLY" ADVENTURE, so take it as an example of "At level 1"
Of course, at level 1 none of the classes have really started doing what they are good at yet. Wizard doesn't even have it's subclass yet, warlock doesn't have its invocations, and sorcerer doesn't have metamagic. Plus at level 1 a fighter can be Killed by a single lucky hit. I say they need to be level 3 to start making good comparisons.
It doesn't make sense to compare the 2 bulkiest sorcerer and warlock subclasses to a wizard that has no subclass at least.
Level 1: Warlock loses, it has the least spell slots and worst spells. Hexblade is the exception to this, it is better than the others. I'd then put Sorcerer as 2nd place, as they don't get a ton of spells, and the subclasses don't give spells. Wizard is 1st, because of the spellbook having 6 spells, with ritual casting, and they can prepare most of these spells. Level 2: Sorcerer loses, getting metamagic to create an additional level 1 spell slot, but not metamagic yet. Warlock is second, because they get another spell slot and Eldritch Invocations. The Wizard now has access to 8 spells, and their subclasses, many of which have very powerful level 2 abilities, like Chronurgists, Diviners, Abjurers, Bladesingers, and War Mages. Level 3: Sorcerer loses, with metamagic giving it a nice boost, but with so few options of metamagic, and lacking some spells that both warlock and wizard get that are great boosts to those classes, sorcerer starts falling behind, Wizard is 2nd place at 3rd level. They get some great spells like misty step and mirror image, but they fall behind as they have no abilities at level 3. Warlock is 1st with Pact Boon now has some great buffs to their abilities, from an attacking familiar, to summoning a free magic weapon, to getting 3 cantrips from any class list, Warlock is obviously ahead Level 4: There is no difference between the classes from where they were at level 3 except for a few minor buffs to each class. Sorcerers get another sorcery point, and all of them get an ability score increase and more spells. Level 5: Warlocks are behind at this level, they don't get much that the other classes don't have better versions of. They do get another Eldritch Invocation, but that's not a huge boost. Sorcerers are 2nd place at this level, they get some great blasting spells, and more sorcery points, but they're still not better than a Wizard. Wizards get access to a ton of great spells, from Animate Dead to Fireball and Leomund's Tiny Hut. Wizards are 1st yet again, because their ritual casting lets them cast practically any ritual spell from their list. Level 6: Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers get their subclass abilities, which can be really good, but this doesn't determine the power of the full class. Warlocks are at the short end of the classes at this level, as they have less spell slots per combat, though they do get them back more often, you run out very quickly. Sorcerers remain at 2nd place as Wizards yet still have access to more spells. Level 7: Warlocks get yet another eldritch invocation, as all of the classes get 4th level spell slots. Wizards stay ahead as they get more spells that they get prepared than sorcerers and warlocks know, and more spells for rituals in their spellbook that they can still cast each day. I'd say it is about here that Warlocks pull ahead of Sorcerers, making sorcerers 3rd place, warlocks 2nd, and wizards 1st. Level 8: Again, not a real significant difference at this level. At every level, Wizard gets more versatile as sorcerers get one more sorcery point. Sorcerers are 3rd place, Warlocks are 2nd, and Wizards are 1st. Level 9: Okay, 5th level spell slots all around. This is will lead to a problem, as warlocks quickly start to fall off after this. At this level, warlocks don't get basically any good spell options for utility or combat. Sorcerers get more combat spells, and a handful of utility spells. Wizards get a huge list of spell options, most of them good for combat, and the others good for outside of combat. One significant difference on the spell lists are that wizards have access to conjuration spells, when Warlocks and Sorcerers have next to no spells that let them have servants. Warlocks do have 2 5th level spell slots, which is more than Wizards and Sorcerers will have access to until level 10. Level 10: Sorcerers get another metamagic option finally, which will make you a bit less thirsty for options, but not by much. Warlocks and Wizards get their subclass abilities, which are all pretty good abilities, normally combat oriented. The scoring is the same as level 8. Level 11: This is where things get interesting. Warlocks finally get another spell slot, and it is level 5, and they now have 3 of them. Wizards and Sorcerers won't have this amount of 5th level spell slots until level 18, or the sorcerer uses Font of Magic to make one. So, Wizards are surprisingly left behind at the amount of times they can cast 5th level spell slots for a bit, except for Arcane Recovery, which you need a short rest to do so. Also, 6th level spell slots! Sorcerers get quite a few good spells, like Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, and Globe of Invulnerability. Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which kind of work like spell slots, except you can't use these for upcasting, and they are identical to spell slots until later levels. So, this is identical to the ranking in level 8. Level 12: Basically nothing changes here. Same ranking as before. Level 13: Now they get level 7 spells. Warlocks have the worst list here, Sorcerers also don't have a huge list, but have some good options. Wizards win (as always) on spell lists. Level 14: Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Wizards all get subclass abilities, again not altering the power of the class. Some of the abilities are very powerful, though (Necromancy Wizards, Evocation Wizards, and a few others). This doesn't alter the ranking at all. Level 15: Level 8 spells, highlights are Feeblemind and Demiplane for Warlocks and Wizards, Earthquake, Dominate Monster. Clone is only available for Wizards, which makes it so you can be immortal with the right materials. No change to the ranking. Level 16: Basically no significant change. Level 17: Level 9 spells. Wizards have the best list, and Sorcerers and Warlocks are tied. On one hand, Sorcerers have Wish, which is hands down the best spell in the game. On the other hand, Warlocks have True Polymorph, which lets you become a demigod. I'd say that this doesn't change the ranking in anyway. Warlocks do get another spell slot, allowing them to cast more 5th level spells in a day than both Wizards and Sorcerers ever will without upcasting, but this doesn't change the ranking. Level 18: Wizards get Spell Mastery, which makes them secure the ranking of top spellcaster among these 3. Sorcerers get their last subclass feature, which is normally pretty good, but again doesn't change the ranking. Warlocks get basically nothing. At this point, Wizards and Sorcerers have 3 5th level spell slots. Level 19: Wizards and Sorcerers get 2 6th level spell slots, more than Warlocks will get. This makes Warlocks 3rd place, Sorcerers 2nd, and Wizards 1st. Level 20: Capstone abilities. All of which are underwhelming. Sorcerers get the shortest end of the deal, but Wizards are a close behind. Sorcerers and Wizards also get another 7th level spell slot, again more than Warlocks will ever have access to.
Final Rankings: Wizard is 1st place through the levels. Sorcerer and Warlocks are changing places many times, but Sorcerers eventually grab the title of 2nd place. Warlocks eventually fall to 3rd place, just because the shear lack of higher level spell slots at the highest levels.
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Level 1: Warlock loses, it has the least spell slots and worst spells. Hexblade is the exception to this, it is better than the others. I'd then put Sorcerer as 2nd place, as they don't get a ton of spells, and the subclasses don't give spells. Wizard is 1st, because of the spellbook having 6 spells, with ritual casting, and they can prepare most of these spells. Level 2: Sorcerer loses, getting metamagic to create an additional level 1 spell slot, but not metamagic yet. Warlock is second, because they get another spell slot and Eldritch Invocations. The Wizard now has access to 8 spells, and their subclasses, many of which have very powerful level 2 abilities, like Chronurgists, Diviners, Abjurers, Bladesingers, and War Mages. Level 3: Sorcerer loses, with metamagic giving it a nice boost, but with so few options of metamagic, and lacking some spells that both warlock and wizard get that are great boosts to those classes, sorcerer starts falling behind, Wizard is 2nd place at 3rd level. They get some great spells like misty step and mirror image, but they fall behind as they have no abilities at level 3. Warlock is 1st with Pact Boon now has some great buffs to their abilities, from an attacking familiar, to summoning a free magic weapon, to getting 3 cantrips from any class list, Warlock is obviously ahead Level 4: There is no difference between the classes from where they were at level 3 except for a few minor buffs to each class. Sorcerers get another sorcery point, and all of them get an ability score increase and more spells. Level 5: Warlocks are behind at this level, they don't get much that the other classes don't have better versions of. They do get another Eldritch Invocation, but that's not a huge boost. Sorcerers are 2nd place at this level, they get some great blasting spells, and more sorcery points, but they're still not better than a Wizard. Wizards get access to a ton of great spells, from Animate Dead to Fireball and Leomund's Tiny Hut. Wizards are 1st yet again, because their ritual casting lets them cast practically any ritual spell from their list. Level 6: Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers get their subclass abilities, which can be really good, but this doesn't determine the power of the full class. Warlocks are at the short end of the classes at this level, as they have less spell slots per combat, though they do get them back more often, you run out very quickly. Sorcerers remain at 2nd place as Wizards yet still have access to more spells. Level 7: Warlocks get yet another eldritch invocation, as all of the classes get 4th level spell slots. Wizards stay ahead as they get more spells that they get prepared than sorcerers and warlocks know, and more spells for rituals in their spellbook that they can still cast each day. I'd say it is about here that Warlocks pull ahead of Sorcerers, making sorcerers 3rd place, warlocks 2nd, and wizards 1st. Level 8: Again, not a real significant difference at this level. At every level, Wizard gets more versatile as sorcerers get one more sorcery point. Sorcerers are 3rd place, Warlocks are 2nd, and Wizards are 1st. Level 9: Okay, 5th level spell slots all around. This is will lead to a problem, as warlocks quickly start to fall off after this. At this level, warlocks don't get basically any good spell options for utility or combat. Sorcerers get more combat spells, and a handful of utility spells. Wizards get a huge list of spell options, most of them good for combat, and the others good for outside of combat. One significant difference on the spell lists are that wizards have access to conjuration spells, when Warlocks and Sorcerers have next to no spells that let them have servants. Warlocks do have 2 5th level spell slots, which is more than Wizards and Sorcerers will have access to until level 10. Level 10: Sorcerers get another metamagic option finally, which will make you a bit less thirsty for options, but not by much. Warlocks and Wizards get their subclass abilities, which are all pretty good abilities, normally combat oriented. The scoring is the same as level 8. Level 11: This is where things get interesting. Warlocks finally get another spell slot, and it is level 5, and they now have 3 of them. Wizards and Sorcerers won't have this amount of 5th level spell slots until level 18, or the sorcerer uses Font of Magic to make one. So, Wizards are surprisingly left behind at the amount of times they can cast 5th level spell slots for a bit, except for Arcane Recovery, which you need a short rest to do so. Also, 6th level spell slots! Sorcerers get quite a few good spells, like Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, and Globe of Invulnerability. Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which kind of work like spell slots, except you can't use these for upcasting, and they are identical to spell slots until later levels. So, this is identical to the ranking in level 8. Level 12: Basically nothing changes here. Same ranking as before. Level 13: Now they get level 7 spells. Warlocks have the worst list here, Sorcerers also don't have a huge list, but have some good options. Wizards win (as always) on spell lists. Level 14: Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Wizards all get subclass abilities, again not altering the power of the class. Some of the abilities are very powerful, though (Necromancy Wizards, Evocation Wizards, and a few others). This doesn't alter the ranking at all. Level 15: Level 8 spells, highlights are Feeblemind and Demiplane for Warlocks and Wizards, Earthquake, Dominate Monster. Clone is only available for Wizards, which makes it so you can be immortal with the right materials. No change to the ranking. Level 16: Basically no significant change. Level 17: Level 9 spells. Wizards have the best list, and Sorcerers and Warlocks are tied. On one hand, Sorcerers have Wish, which is hands down the best spell in the game. On the other hand, Warlocks have True Polymorph, which lets you become a demigod. I'd say that this doesn't change the ranking in anyway. Warlocks do get another spell slot, allowing them to cast more 5th level spells in a day than both Wizards and Sorcerers ever will without upcasting, but this doesn't change the ranking. Level 18: Wizards get Spell Mastery, which makes them secure the ranking of top spellcaster among these 3. Sorcerers get their last subclass feature, which is normally pretty good, but again doesn't change the ranking. Warlocks get basically nothing. At this point, Wizards and Sorcerers have 3 5th level spell slots. Level 19: Wizards and Sorcerers get 2 6th level spell slots, more than Warlocks will get. This makes Warlocks 3rd place, Sorcerers 2nd, and Wizards 1st. Level 20: Capstone abilities. All of which are underwhelming. Sorcerers get the shortest end of the deal, but Wizards are a close behind. Sorcerers and Wizards also get another 7th level spell slot, again more than Warlocks will ever have access to.
Final Rankings: Wizard is 1st place through the levels. Sorcerer and Warlocks are changing places many times, but Sorcerers eventually grab the title of 2nd place. Warlocks eventually fall to 3rd place, just because the shear lack of higher level spell slots at the highest levels.
Yep that is one great assessment and side note wizards are Op at higher levels.
Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
That's incorrect. My post is honest, as are many in this thread. It does depend on your table and playstyle, but there are definitely such a thing as "better classes than others." Druids are a better class than Rangers, Paladins are a better class than Monks, and Wizards are generally better casters than Sorcerers and Warlocks.
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Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
That's incorrect. My post is honest, as are many in this thread. It does depend on your table and playstyle, but there are definitely such a thing as "better classes than others." Druids are a better class than Rangers, Paladins are a better class than Monks, and Wizards are generally better casters than Sorcerers and Warlocks.
Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
That's incorrect. My post is honest, as are many in this thread. It does depend on your table and playstyle, but there are definitely such a thing as "better classes than others." Druids are a better class than Rangers, Paladins are a better class than Monks, and Wizards are generally better casters than Sorcerers and Warlocks.
...in your opinion
And its your opinion that it's impossible for any class to be better than any other. That doesn't make yours a fact. There are classes that are strictly better or worse than others. You can have fun and make a good and creative character with any of them, but there are options that are hands down better than others.
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Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
I assure you, the wizard , the sorcerer and the warlock are much, much, MUCH stronger than the ranger or the monk
I do get the spirit of what youre saying tho. There are classes (and subclasses) much stronger than others, but most everything will stay viable and playable across the levels (the only two deathtraps in my opinion are beastmaster ranger and four elements monk).
Personal style has A LOT to do with how strong a class is - I've got a player that was simply hopeless in fights while playing a rogue, but now has found his true calling while playing a Monk, and he's WAY more useful in fights when kun-fu fighting than backstabbing. In other words, if everybody tells you the wizard's stronger, but you find yourself more at home with the sorc, and you're more effective as a sorc, then for you the answer is the sorc.
Add the factor of the dungeon master - as others said, just how many short rests come in play has a huge impact in the warlock experience- and there's honestly not a solid answer, at least between wizard and sorcerer (I do find monowarlock somewhat lacking [except the hexblade] but as others have mentioned, it comboes REALLY strong with other classes)
Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one.... It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better. EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
That's incorrect. My post is honest, as are many in this thread. It does depend on your table and playstyle, but there are definitely such a thing as "better classes than others." Druids are a better class than Rangers, Paladins are a better class than Monks, and Wizards are generally better casters than Sorcerers and Warlocks.
...in your opinion
And its your opinion that it's impossible for any class to be better than any other. That doesn't make yours a fact. There are classes that are strictly better or worse than others. You can have fun and make a good and creative character with any of them, but there are options that are hands down better than others.
...in your opinion.
I'll admit, I'm doing this partly for fun, but there is an awful lot of "objectivity" being thrown around here for a system that 1) is completely fictional, 2) is an apples to oranges comparison (how do you compare objectively a warlock fiend's temp HP boost with a warlock GOO's psychic resistance/reflection? and that's subclasses of the same class!), and 3) the dice control how strong any player character is, regardless of class, subclass, magic items, or anything else. Ultimately, any ranking or preference in classes is going to be subjective. The last campaign I ran, one of the most powerful players was a Hunter Ranger, because he rolled well and utilized his strong CON and magic items to become the party tank (I literally could not kill him; he faced multiple 200 foot drops, being outnumbered, and massive spell effects and dropped to 0 once in a whole year). Meanwhile, the Hexblade Warlock outright died, and the Evocation wizard dropped to 0 at least once per combat.
For the most part, the system designed is balanced, but any actual attempt to "rank" the classes in a way that will be accepted universally or "objectively" is going to be folly, because it is always, always subjective, and even the parts that could be "objectively" compared, like damage output, are based on a RNG and can change with non-class elements.
There are options that are hands down better than others.
...in your opinion.
No, by shear comparison. Go read Beast Master Rangers sometime and compare it to Battle Smith Artificers. By shear numbers and mechanics, you can see which option is better than the other.
(how do you compare objectively a warlock fiend's temp HP boost with a warlock GOO's psychic resistance/reflection? and that's subclasses of the same class!)
We're talking about classes, not subclasses. And also, temporary hit points are normally more useful than resistance to psychic damage (as it is an extremely uncommon damage type).
Ultimately, any ranking or preference in classes is going to be subjective. The last campaign I ran, one of the most powerful players was a Hunter Ranger, because he rolled well and utilized his strong CON and magic items to become the party tank (I literally could not kill him; he faced multiple 200 foot drops, being outnumbered, and massive spell effects and dropped to 0 once in a whole year). Meanwhile, the Hexblade Warlock outright died, and the Evocation wizard dropped to 0 at least once per combat.
That's purely an anecdote, and not the case in most situations. You gave them magic items, which could change the character's effectiveness a ton compared to the base class/subclass. Also, evocation wizards and hexblade warlocks have less hit points and typically lower sustainable AC than Warlocks and Wizards, so that remark about them being unkillable combined with your giving magic items to them actually plays against your argument. Also, in shear damage, the Hunter Ranger is worse than the Horizon Walker. You can compare numbers to see which is worse and which is better.
For the most part, the system designed is balanced, but any actual attempt to "rank" the classes in a way that will be accepted universally or "objectively" is going to be folly, because it is always, always subjective, and even the parts that could be "objectively" compared, like damage output, are based on a RNG and can change with non-class elements.
The system is mostly balanced, and I never tried to rank all of the classes in any way, or try doing it subjectively, mine was purely objective. My ranking was supported by a whole post that breaks down the benefits of each class at each level, mechanically listing why certain classes/features are better than others at specific levels. And, DPR can be compared directly and non-class elements don't factor into the ranking of the classes. If it takes an Oathbow and Cloak of Protection (just examples) to be more/as effective as a Hexblade/Evoker, that's purely at the fault of the design of the class.
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Sometimes I feel like sage advice isn’t RAI, but rather “Rules As (Jeremy Crawford) Interpreted.” If I read the Pact Magic section of the Multiclassing rules, I might say that you can only cast spells with pact magic slots (since that is all that is described in that section) so flexible casting is out. Of course there is a Sage Advice that conflicts with this. But if it comes down to fun of others and spotlight time and a coffeelock creating problems at a table, I might be inclined to rule this way anyway.
”Coffeelock” is perfectly within the rules mostly because Jeremy Crawford says so. I feel like another interpretation like mine is perfectly reasonable too (though not important because I’m not JC).
It's definitely all up to the discretion of the DM. I think, though, that if any player is intending to Coffeelock they should probably inform their DM ahead of time... It's better not to spring a deliberate min/max, loosey-goosey interpretation of the rules on the DM suddenly and throw off the balance of the campaign for the other players... and at the same time if a DM is going to restrict something like this it's better that the player know ahead of time so that they don't waste all their time in-game prepping for a specific build that isn't allowed at that table.
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It's not like Tome Pact Sorclocks with Aspect of the Moon aren't awesome in their own right. Or like they're stuck with Aspect of the Moon if they try to surprise their DM with coffee shenanery and she says no. But yeah, if you're going to play the kind of rules-twisty weirdness that says "I can turn one long rest into a dozen free spell slots I carry until the next time I long rest - which I never do," you should really, really clear that with your DM first.
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Lore Bard / Abjuration Wiz / Divination Wiz wins in caster vs caster duels imo. Flexibility in spell selection, high counterspell rolls, self shields, and ability to control opponents rolls make these my favorite straight up caster classes. A nod definitely goes to Sorc for being the only class that can stealthily cast spells and with high charisma makes them really fantastic for RP campaigns.
There is so much more to this then I thought :p
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
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Ok I wont make a huge long post. But I ran like 2 days of math, then my group did a weekend & play tested my custom level 1 "Deadly Encounters" adventure module.
* It for 3 to 5 1st level PC's & features a "Get my this McGuffin" quest to a tomb.
On the way to crypt there is an encounter with a pack of 5x wolves when party stops to rest. Note its the only "traveling" encounter. Party will reach crypt by morning.
Crypt has a Trapped entrance in 1st room, goes to 2nd room with 5x Rat swarms encounter. This room has a puzzle door leading to lower floor.
Lower floor 1st room: encounter with 5x Skeletons encounter, this room has trapped locked door to boss room. 2nd room has Minotaur Skeleton in a cloak of protection (the boss)
Ok thats that. We ran 6 times (2 each class: sorcerer/warlock/wizard) it with fighter/cleric/rouge/xxx and the results were very telling.
On both of wizard tests, Envoker Wizard was downed 4 times & out right killed once (1 big hit).
The Draconic Sorcerer did far better, only being downed once. The natural ac & extra 1hp helped.
The Fiend patron Warlock, also did very well. No down & no deaths. More HP, AC, Dark Ones Blessing, REALLY helped. Note the warlock played less "mage" & more "spell-sword"
So "best" is depending on flavor you want. Suitability & "non-spell" combat = warlock > sorcerer > wizard
But for pure spell choice/number & EVENTUAL peak "spell casting" power its: wizard > sorcerer > warlock
I hope thats useful. NOTE MY TEST WAS A LEVEL 1 "DEADLY" ADVENTURE, so take it as an example of "At level 1"
The bladesinger skyrockets above other wizards in terms of non-spell combat. Is it enough to overcome the other two classes?
So sorcerer seems like middle turf. Not as versatile as the wizard, but not as limited as the warlock.
Warlock is very limited but does what it does very well. Which is blasting.
Wizard is the squishiest but the most versatile.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
Of course, at level 1 none of the classes have really started doing what they are good at yet. Wizard doesn't even have it's subclass yet, warlock doesn't have its invocations, and sorcerer doesn't have metamagic. Plus at level 1 a fighter can be Killed by a single lucky hit. I say they need to be level 3 to start making good comparisons.
It doesn't make sense to compare the 2 bulkiest sorcerer and warlock subclasses to a wizard that has no subclass at least.
Level 1: Warlock loses, it has the least spell slots and worst spells. Hexblade is the exception to this, it is better than the others. I'd then put Sorcerer as 2nd place, as they don't get a ton of spells, and the subclasses don't give spells. Wizard is 1st, because of the spellbook having 6 spells, with ritual casting, and they can prepare most of these spells.
Level 2: Sorcerer loses, getting metamagic to create an additional level 1 spell slot, but not metamagic yet. Warlock is second, because they get another spell slot and Eldritch Invocations. The Wizard now has access to 8 spells, and their subclasses, many of which have very powerful level 2 abilities, like Chronurgists, Diviners, Abjurers, Bladesingers, and War Mages.
Level 3: Sorcerer loses, with metamagic giving it a nice boost, but with so few options of metamagic, and lacking some spells that both warlock and wizard get that are great boosts to those classes, sorcerer starts falling behind, Wizard is 2nd place at 3rd level. They get some great spells like misty step and mirror image, but they fall behind as they have no abilities at level 3. Warlock is 1st with Pact Boon now has some great buffs to their abilities, from an attacking familiar, to summoning a free magic weapon, to getting 3 cantrips from any class list, Warlock is obviously ahead
Level 4: There is no difference between the classes from where they were at level 3 except for a few minor buffs to each class. Sorcerers get another sorcery point, and all of them get an ability score increase and more spells.
Level 5: Warlocks are behind at this level, they don't get much that the other classes don't have better versions of. They do get another Eldritch Invocation, but that's not a huge boost. Sorcerers are 2nd place at this level, they get some great blasting spells, and more sorcery points, but they're still not better than a Wizard. Wizards get access to a ton of great spells, from Animate Dead to Fireball and Leomund's Tiny Hut. Wizards are 1st yet again, because their ritual casting lets them cast practically any ritual spell from their list.
Level 6: Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers get their subclass abilities, which can be really good, but this doesn't determine the power of the full class. Warlocks are at the short end of the classes at this level, as they have less spell slots per combat, though they do get them back more often, you run out very quickly. Sorcerers remain at 2nd place as Wizards yet still have access to more spells.
Level 7: Warlocks get yet another eldritch invocation, as all of the classes get 4th level spell slots. Wizards stay ahead as they get more spells that they get prepared than sorcerers and warlocks know, and more spells for rituals in their spellbook that they can still cast each day. I'd say it is about here that Warlocks pull ahead of Sorcerers, making sorcerers 3rd place, warlocks 2nd, and wizards 1st.
Level 8: Again, not a real significant difference at this level. At every level, Wizard gets more versatile as sorcerers get one more sorcery point. Sorcerers are 3rd place, Warlocks are 2nd, and Wizards are 1st.
Level 9: Okay, 5th level spell slots all around. This is will lead to a problem, as warlocks quickly start to fall off after this. At this level, warlocks don't get basically any good spell options for utility or combat. Sorcerers get more combat spells, and a handful of utility spells. Wizards get a huge list of spell options, most of them good for combat, and the others good for outside of combat. One significant difference on the spell lists are that wizards have access to conjuration spells, when Warlocks and Sorcerers have next to no spells that let them have servants. Warlocks do have 2 5th level spell slots, which is more than Wizards and Sorcerers will have access to until level 10.
Level 10: Sorcerers get another metamagic option finally, which will make you a bit less thirsty for options, but not by much. Warlocks and Wizards get their subclass abilities, which are all pretty good abilities, normally combat oriented. The scoring is the same as level 8.
Level 11: This is where things get interesting. Warlocks finally get another spell slot, and it is level 5, and they now have 3 of them. Wizards and Sorcerers won't have this amount of 5th level spell slots until level 18, or the sorcerer uses Font of Magic to make one. So, Wizards are surprisingly left behind at the amount of times they can cast 5th level spell slots for a bit, except for Arcane Recovery, which you need a short rest to do so. Also, 6th level spell slots! Sorcerers get quite a few good spells, like Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, and Globe of Invulnerability. Warlocks get Mystic Arcanum, which kind of work like spell slots, except you can't use these for upcasting, and they are identical to spell slots until later levels. So, this is identical to the ranking in level 8.
Level 12: Basically nothing changes here. Same ranking as before.
Level 13: Now they get level 7 spells. Warlocks have the worst list here, Sorcerers also don't have a huge list, but have some good options. Wizards win (as always) on spell lists.
Level 14: Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Wizards all get subclass abilities, again not altering the power of the class. Some of the abilities are very powerful, though (Necromancy Wizards, Evocation Wizards, and a few others). This doesn't alter the ranking at all.
Level 15: Level 8 spells, highlights are Feeblemind and Demiplane for Warlocks and Wizards, Earthquake, Dominate Monster. Clone is only available for Wizards, which makes it so you can be immortal with the right materials. No change to the ranking.
Level 16: Basically no significant change.
Level 17: Level 9 spells. Wizards have the best list, and Sorcerers and Warlocks are tied. On one hand, Sorcerers have Wish, which is hands down the best spell in the game. On the other hand, Warlocks have True Polymorph, which lets you become a demigod. I'd say that this doesn't change the ranking in anyway. Warlocks do get another spell slot, allowing them to cast more 5th level spells in a day than both Wizards and Sorcerers ever will without upcasting, but this doesn't change the ranking.
Level 18: Wizards get Spell Mastery, which makes them secure the ranking of top spellcaster among these 3. Sorcerers get their last subclass feature, which is normally pretty good, but again doesn't change the ranking. Warlocks get basically nothing. At this point, Wizards and Sorcerers have 3 5th level spell slots.
Level 19: Wizards and Sorcerers get 2 6th level spell slots, more than Warlocks will get. This makes Warlocks 3rd place, Sorcerers 2nd, and Wizards 1st.
Level 20: Capstone abilities. All of which are underwhelming. Sorcerers get the shortest end of the deal, but Wizards are a close behind. Sorcerers and Wizards also get another 7th level spell slot, again more than Warlocks will ever have access to.
Final Rankings: Wizard is 1st place through the levels. Sorcerer and Warlocks are changing places many times, but Sorcerers eventually grab the title of 2nd place. Warlocks eventually fall to 3rd place, just because the shear lack of higher level spell slots at the highest levels.
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Yep that is one great assessment and side note wizards are Op at higher levels.
Here is your good solid response, and the only honest one....
It depends on your table and play-style as to which is better.
EVERYONE that tells you ANY class is better than any other class is merely speaking from personal biases.
That's incorrect. My post is honest, as are many in this thread. It does depend on your table and playstyle, but there are definitely such a thing as "better classes than others." Druids are a better class than Rangers, Paladins are a better class than Monks, and Wizards are generally better casters than Sorcerers and Warlocks.
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...in your opinion
And its your opinion that it's impossible for any class to be better than any other. That doesn't make yours a fact. There are classes that are strictly better or worse than others. You can have fun and make a good and creative character with any of them, but there are options that are hands down better than others.
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I assure you, the wizard , the sorcerer and the warlock are much, much, MUCH stronger than the ranger or the monk
I do get the spirit of what youre saying tho. There are classes (and subclasses) much stronger than others, but most everything will stay viable and playable across the levels (the only two deathtraps in my opinion are beastmaster ranger and four elements monk).
Personal style has A LOT to do with how strong a class is - I've got a player that was simply hopeless in fights while playing a rogue, but now has found his true calling while playing a Monk, and he's WAY more useful in fights when kun-fu fighting than backstabbing. In other words, if everybody tells you the wizard's stronger, but you find yourself more at home with the sorc, and you're more effective as a sorc, then for you the answer is the sorc.
Add the factor of the dungeon master - as others said, just how many short rests come in play has a huge impact in the warlock experience- and there's honestly not a solid answer, at least between wizard and sorcerer (I do find monowarlock somewhat lacking [except the hexblade] but as others have mentioned, it comboes REALLY strong with other classes)
I would say Coffeelock is more broken when the new sourcebook is out. The Genie subclass combines with this build too well.
...in your opinion.
I'll admit, I'm doing this partly for fun, but there is an awful lot of "objectivity" being thrown around here for a system that 1) is completely fictional, 2) is an apples to oranges comparison (how do you compare objectively a warlock fiend's temp HP boost with a warlock GOO's psychic resistance/reflection? and that's subclasses of the same class!), and 3) the dice control how strong any player character is, regardless of class, subclass, magic items, or anything else. Ultimately, any ranking or preference in classes is going to be subjective. The last campaign I ran, one of the most powerful players was a Hunter Ranger, because he rolled well and utilized his strong CON and magic items to become the party tank (I literally could not kill him; he faced multiple 200 foot drops, being outnumbered, and massive spell effects and dropped to 0 once in a whole year). Meanwhile, the Hexblade Warlock outright died, and the Evocation wizard dropped to 0 at least once per combat.
For the most part, the system designed is balanced, but any actual attempt to "rank" the classes in a way that will be accepted universally or "objectively" is going to be folly, because it is always, always subjective, and even the parts that could be "objectively" compared, like damage output, are based on a RNG and can change with non-class elements.
(slight edit to format the reply)
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No, by shear comparison. Go read Beast Master Rangers sometime and compare it to Battle Smith Artificers. By shear numbers and mechanics, you can see which option is better than the other.
We're talking about classes, not subclasses. And also, temporary hit points are normally more useful than resistance to psychic damage (as it is an extremely uncommon damage type).
That's purely an anecdote, and not the case in most situations. You gave them magic items, which could change the character's effectiveness a ton compared to the base class/subclass. Also, evocation wizards and hexblade warlocks have less hit points and typically lower sustainable AC than Warlocks and Wizards, so that remark about them being unkillable combined with your giving magic items to them actually plays against your argument. Also, in shear damage, the Hunter Ranger is worse than the Horizon Walker. You can compare numbers to see which is worse and which is better.
The system is mostly balanced, and I never tried to rank all of the classes in any way, or try doing it subjectively, mine was purely objective. My ranking was supported by a whole post that breaks down the benefits of each class at each level, mechanically listing why certain classes/features are better than others at specific levels. And, DPR can be compared directly and non-class elements don't factor into the ranking of the classes. If it takes an Oathbow and Cloak of Protection (just examples) to be more/as effective as a Hexblade/Evoker, that's purely at the fault of the design of the class.
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