So, I ran my first game the other night which was a lot of fun. At the time, I was asked if my player could grapple. I said make a strength check. The player said they could use dex. Although my gut said no in the moment I allowed it. No biggie. It made for a fun moment. After the game I looked up the rule and to me it is just strength. My player is reading it as dex or strength.
1) Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll. A Strength (Athletics) check (the player) contested by the target's (the opponent) Strength (Athletics) OR 4) Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
I read it as the player doing the grapple using strength. The contested is strength or dex for the opponent's to get out power out or dodge the grapple. I asked how do you use dex/acrobatics to grapple someone. There is nothing dex about grappling. You are using strength to hold them in place. They came back with, "if you want to make it so that its always str vs dex or str thats your right as a DM but that is not what it is saying there."
Please help me with making sure we are both understanding the rule correctly so I can either make sure I'm doing this right or that they are understanding the rule right.
I actually like the idea of dex grappling, Look at some Brazilian Jujitsu fighters. They don't have to be strong to put someone in an arm bar or, ankle lock or a choke. I guess it could be flavoured as if the opponent is trying to get out of the grapple, the dex based grappler goes for another limb to prevent them from moving.
RAW, a grapple is initiated--by the grappler--with an Athletics (Str) skill check. The target can use Athletics (Str) or Acrobatics (Dex) to context the grapple, yet the grappler always rolls Athletics (Str). All assuming there are no class/racial abilities or feats that impact grappling.
It's worth noting that one of the RAW sanctioned DM options is to allow skill checks to be rolled with a different ability score if it makes sense to you. Is the player in question a Monk? You could let them roll Athletics (Dex) instead of Athletics (Str). That way proficiency choices stay meaningful.
Side note: Count this as one of the many things 5e "revamped" that is just plain dumb. I'm much more in favor of Athletics/Acrobatics for all aspects of grappling.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
In one of my sessions (i am a player), a player who played monk asked if he can use dexterity to kick with shove effect or grab someone to throw them after the session ended. I was also interested in the concept he asked. Aside from DM making unique rules, is that even possible? Grapple or just shove someone with dextrity?
In one of my sessions (i am a player), a player who played monk asked if he can use dexterity to kick with shove effect or grab someone to throw them after the session ended. I was also interested in the concept he asked. Aside from DM making unique rules, is that even possible? Grapple or just shove someone with dextrity?
Other than has been suggested above - if your Monk really wanted to do that - the Open Hand subclass has some of that with the Open Hand Technique.
Rules as written? No. They can only use their Strength (athletics) roll.
Grapples are less about putting your hands on to someone, and more about holding them to make sure they don't move - they still get full actions without penalty (so no armbars and such), but their speed is now 0. Shoving is simply about using brute force to move a creature 5 feet or knock them prone.
Anything beyond that is homebrew/house ruling. Which, of course, you are free to do.
By RAW, yes, it must be STR (Athletics) -- but I think DEX can easily be applied (grappling is less "tackling" and more "holding in place" and I think DEX could signify grabbing someone's wrists before they can resist -- in the PHB "securely tie up a prisoner" is given as an example of a generic DEX check, even).
Especially it should be considered in regards to Monks, who otherwise effectively have a class feature that allows them to swap STR with DEX for attacks. Personally I think that a DM could easily imply that Grapple and Shove attacks can utilize DEX when otherwise they would be STR.
ETA: I especially think that it would be an interesting variation to allow the aggressor to pick the ability and force the target to use the opposite ability ... it might make grappling slightly OP, but narratively I think it makes sense that a STR grapple plays out one way and a DEX grapple plays out another way, and that action must be determined by the aggressor. For instance:
STR grapple attack would be similar to attempting to lunge and bearhug the target, and the target would need to deftly dodge out of the grasp of the attacker.
DEX grapple attack would be similar to grabbing the target's wrists or otherwise out-maneuvering them to hold them down, and the target would simply need to overpower them to break away from their grasp.
Love this idea, although if you've ever been put into an arm bar or wrist lock you know the only way out is DEX. You can't overpower a proper lock, pushing against them makes it hurt even more.
And agree that hold/submission is a very DEX concept in the real world.
Cheers
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So, I ran my first game the other night which was a lot of fun. At the time, I was asked if my player could grapple. I said make a strength check. The player said they could use dex. Although my gut said no in the moment I allowed it. No biggie. It made for a fun moment. After the game I looked up the rule and to me it is just strength. My player is reading it as dex or strength.
1) Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll. A Strength (Athletics) check (the player) contested by the target's (the opponent) Strength (Athletics) OR 4) Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
I read it as the player doing the grapple using strength. The contested is strength or dex for the opponent's to get out power out or dodge the grapple. I asked how do you use dex/acrobatics to grapple someone. There is nothing dex about grappling. You are using strength to hold them in place. They came back with, "if you want to make it so that its always str vs dex or str thats your right as a DM but that is not what it is saying there."
Please help me with making sure we are both understanding the rule correctly so I can either make sure I'm doing this right or that they are understanding the rule right.
Thank you all
You are correct. Strength (Athletics) to make the grapple and Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) to resist it.
I actually like the idea of dex grappling, Look at some Brazilian Jujitsu fighters. They don't have to be strong to put someone in an arm bar or, ankle lock or a choke. I guess it could be flavoured as if the opponent is trying to get out of the grapple, the dex based grappler goes for another limb to prevent them from moving.
RAW, a grapple is initiated--by the grappler--with an Athletics (Str) skill check. The target can use Athletics (Str) or Acrobatics (Dex) to context the grapple, yet the grappler always rolls Athletics (Str). All assuming there are no class/racial abilities or feats that impact grappling.
It's worth noting that one of the RAW sanctioned DM options is to allow skill checks to be rolled with a different ability score if it makes sense to you. Is the player in question a Monk? You could let them roll Athletics (Dex) instead of Athletics (Str). That way proficiency choices stay meaningful.
Side note: Count this as one of the many things 5e "revamped" that is just plain dumb. I'm much more in favor of Athletics/Acrobatics for all aspects of grappling.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
In one of my sessions (i am a player), a player who played monk asked if he can use dexterity to kick with shove effect or grab someone to throw them after the session ended. I was also interested in the concept he asked. Aside from DM making unique rules, is that even possible? Grapple or just shove someone with dextrity?
Other than has been suggested above - if your Monk really wanted to do that - the Open Hand subclass has some of that with the Open Hand Technique.
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Rules as written? No. They can only use their Strength (athletics) roll.
Grapples are less about putting your hands on to someone, and more about holding them to make sure they don't move - they still get full actions without penalty (so no armbars and such), but their speed is now 0. Shoving is simply about using brute force to move a creature 5 feet or knock them prone.
Anything beyond that is homebrew/house ruling. Which, of course, you are free to do.
By RAW, yes, it must be STR (Athletics) -- but I think DEX can easily be applied (grappling is less "tackling" and more "holding in place" and I think DEX could signify grabbing someone's wrists before they can resist -- in the PHB "securely tie up a prisoner" is given as an example of a generic DEX check, even).
Especially it should be considered in regards to Monks, who otherwise effectively have a class feature that allows them to swap STR with DEX for attacks. Personally I think that a DM could easily imply that Grapple and Shove attacks can utilize DEX when otherwise they would be STR.
ETA: I especially think that it would be an interesting variation to allow the aggressor to pick the ability and force the target to use the opposite ability ... it might make grappling slightly OP, but narratively I think it makes sense that a STR grapple plays out one way and a DEX grapple plays out another way, and that action must be determined by the aggressor. For instance:
I created these tables for people to reference. Also included the DM Options.
Grapple
Shove
Climb onto a Bigger Creature
Disarm
Overrun
Shove Aside
Tumble
Love this idea, although if you've ever been put into an arm bar or wrist lock you know the only way out is DEX. You can't overpower a proper lock, pushing against them makes it hurt even more.
And agree that hold/submission is a very DEX concept in the real world.
Cheers