Gnome walking speed is 25 feet. He has on Boots of Striding and Springing which brings his walking speed up to 30 feet. When he casts Longstrider, does that extra 10 feet of speed stack on the boots or does it bring his base speed up to 35, negating the benefit of the boots? The wording of the magic item is what makes me wonder.
I would rule that it is 40 ft. The boots make your walking speed 30. You are attuning to this magical item to give you this, practically, indefinite buff. This is your new base speed. Longstrider adds 10ft to “your walking speed”. You are not combining effects from 2 spells nor does longstrider specify that it affects only your original speed.
"Your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless it is higher."
The order of effects is important here. If Longstrider is considered to take effect before the boots do, then this property fails to function and your walking speed is 35 feet. If the boots augment your existing speed, i.e. you're considered to be moving at 30 feet before you cast Longstrider, then the added speed simply bolts on.
Without a clear determinant of the order of enchantment, the interaction is ambiguous.
If you're playing AL or similar, then my base assumption is "Always assume the rules are out to screw you over as hard as they can"; in this case I'd assume a walking pace of 35 feet. This keeps AL judges from killing your character for a rules violation. If you were playing at my table, I'd probably let you have the extra five feet under the philosophy of being generous to your players. It'd feel bad knowing your cool magic item was halfway sabotaged by rules ****ery, five extra feet of movement isn't going to break the game outside of situations where it'd do so in an awesome Story Time way, and Turbo Midget is amusing anyways.
Generally, replacement and bonus effects don't stack. Your speed is 35.
Wouldn't the specific-beats-general rule cover this? "While you wear these boots, your walking speed becomes 30 feet" seems pretty clear. Then, with Longstrider: "You touch a creature. The target's speed increases by 10 feet until the spell ends."
"Your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless it is higher."
The order of effects is important here. If Longstrider is considered to take effect before the boots do, then this property fails to function and your walking speed is 35 feet. If the boots augment your existing speed, i.e. you're considered to be moving at 30 feet before you cast Longstrider, then the added speed simply bolts on.
Without a clear determinant of the order of enchantment, the interaction is ambiguous.
If you're already wearing the boots when you cast Longstrider, the order of operations seems clear to me, and your new walking speed would be 40'.
I'm totally open to the idea that I'm missing something here.
Ilamanunts, the distinction lies between "walking speed" and "base walking speed." Not that either of those effects uses the precise word "base walking speed," but that's the operative concept... See, for example, the difference between mage armor and barkskin. Mage armor sets your "base AC" to 13+Dex, and so other modifiers may still add on top of that base. Barkskin instead provides that your AC "cannot be less" than 16, but does not set your "base AC" to 16, so other modifiers still have to start back at whatever your base AC is not at 16. The wording of Barkskin and the boots is not exactly the same, but they are closer to Barkskin than they are to Mage Armor: they don't modify your base walking speed, they set a floor to your total speed calculation. Modifiers to your base walking speed like Longstrider still have to start from your base speed, which in the case of a gnome is 25 even if the boots mean their final speed calculation cannot add up to less than 30.
I would tend to agree with Chicken_Champ and DxJxC on this one. I tend to think that these boots, as well as other magic items that set stats to a particular value, work like this: Calculate your walking speed (or stat) as you might normally, accounting for any bonuses, etc. Then, check the value and compare to the one listed in the item and use the item's set value if it is larger. I do not think this type of interaction is called out in the rules anywhere, but I believe they should function like AC: you can choose which calculation you use, but can't use more than one.
If you use this interpretation, then "order of operations" won't matter. Whether you put the boots on first or receive the benefit of the spell, your walking speed should become the same after all is tabulated. I think this parity is a key factor for making this interpretation more likely, because it makes the ruling much more simple (you don't have to worry about order of operations) and tends to be more in line with other bonuses in 5e.
I would agree with DxJxC and say it's very similar to those items that set an attribute to 19. Bonuses don't affect it - they affect your base attribute and if with bonuses it exceeds the magic item - then you use that value - otherwise you use the value given by the magic item.
Generally, replacement and bonus effects don't stack. Your speed is 35.
Wouldn't the specific-beats-general rule cover this? "While you wear these boots, your walking speed becomes 30 feet" seems pretty clear. Then, with Longstrider: "You touch a creature. The target's speed increases by 10 feet until the spell ends."
No, specific beats general doesn't cover this because none of the effects in question specifically oppose it. But that wasn't an actual rule, just a simplified conclusion based on several rules and rulings. And so far, no rules interaction has broken it (replacement effects are rare after all).
Think of it this way: the boots of striding and springing say "your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless your walking speed is higher." So if your walking speed were to suddenly become over 30 (like from polymorph, wild shape, monk levels, or longstrider) the boots would automatically stop applying that effect. This means that the boots are always checking your speed. So when the spell is cast on you, the boots check your speed, sees that it is higher than 30, and doesnt change it.
You could also think of it that longstrider on the boots speed makes your speed 40, 40 is higher than 30, boot stop applying, speed is 35.
"your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless your walking speed is higher."
That all makes sense. As for the quoted part, I had taken that to mean that the boots could not *reduce* your speed if you had a higher walking speed, not that it would remove the effect.
Heh. Effectively, DJC's analysis (which is, sadly, likely correct) simply means Longstrider continues to be an utter waste of a first-level spell slot. Sad, really. I like the idea of the spell, but it's just...so bad...
How is it a waste? A wood elf ranger that casts longstrider on itself (not needing to maintain concentration, or drop Hunter's Mark) can kite enemies pretty effectively without danger of being caught. Without Longstrider, if you're trying to keep 10' of space from something Dashing to chase you, you can only shoot twice over five rounds even starting at 60'. With Longstrider, you can shoot four times in that same five rounds.
Longstrider (35 base + 10 enhance)
60 + 45 - 60 =45 (shoot)
45 +45 - 60 = 30 (shoot)
30 + 45 - 60 = 15 (shoot)
15 + 90 - 60 = 45 (run)
45 + 45 - 60 = 30 (shoot)
vs.
Base (35 feet movement)
60 + 35 - 60 = 35 (shoot)
35 + 35 - 60 = 10 (shoot)
10 + 70 - 60 = 20 (run)
20 + 70 - 60 = 30 (run)
30 + 70 - 60 = 40 (run) (or, shoot but end up caught within 5' after Enemy's dash)
Sure. That's also an edge case that assumes several hundred feet of open terrain to move amongst and an absolute best case scenario for Longstrider. Virtually no other species, nor any other class, can make effective use of it. To then say that Longstrider and Boots of Striding and Springing effectively cancel each other out, to boot, just kinda feels really bad. Poor gnome guy.
Gnome walking speed is 25 feet. He has on Boots of Striding and Springing which brings his walking speed up to 30 feet. When he casts Longstrider, does that extra 10 feet of speed stack on the boots or does it bring his base speed up to 35, negating the benefit of the boots? The wording of the magic item is what makes me wonder.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Generally, replacement and bonus effects don't stack. Your speed is 35.
I would rule that it is 40 ft. The boots make your walking speed 30. You are attuning to this magical item to give you this, practically, indefinite buff. This is your new base speed. Longstrider adds 10ft to “your walking speed”. You are not combining effects from 2 spells nor does longstrider specify that it affects only your original speed.
"Your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless it is higher."
The order of effects is important here. If Longstrider is considered to take effect before the boots do, then this property fails to function and your walking speed is 35 feet. If the boots augment your existing speed, i.e. you're considered to be moving at 30 feet before you cast Longstrider, then the added speed simply bolts on.
Without a clear determinant of the order of enchantment, the interaction is ambiguous.
If you're playing AL or similar, then my base assumption is "Always assume the rules are out to screw you over as hard as they can"; in this case I'd assume a walking pace of 35 feet. This keeps AL judges from killing your character for a rules violation. If you were playing at my table, I'd probably let you have the extra five feet under the philosophy of being generous to your players. It'd feel bad knowing your cool magic item was halfway sabotaged by rules ****ery, five extra feet of movement isn't going to break the game outside of situations where it'd do so in an awesome Story Time way, and Turbo Midget is amusing anyways.
Please do not contact or message me.
Wouldn't the specific-beats-general rule cover this? "While you wear these boots, your walking speed becomes 30 feet" seems pretty clear. Then, with Longstrider: "You touch a creature. The target's speed increases by 10 feet until the spell ends."
If you're already wearing the boots when you cast Longstrider, the order of operations seems clear to me, and your new walking speed would be 40'.
I'm totally open to the idea that I'm missing something here.
Ilamanunts, the distinction lies between "walking speed" and "base walking speed." Not that either of those effects uses the precise word "base walking speed," but that's the operative concept... See, for example, the difference between mage armor and barkskin. Mage armor sets your "base AC" to 13+Dex, and so other modifiers may still add on top of that base. Barkskin instead provides that your AC "cannot be less" than 16, but does not set your "base AC" to 16, so other modifiers still have to start back at whatever your base AC is not at 16. The wording of Barkskin and the boots is not exactly the same, but they are closer to Barkskin than they are to Mage Armor: they don't modify your base walking speed, they set a floor to your total speed calculation. Modifiers to your base walking speed like Longstrider still have to start from your base speed, which in the case of a gnome is 25 even if the boots mean their final speed calculation cannot add up to less than 30.
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I would tend to agree with Chicken_Champ and DxJxC on this one. I tend to think that these boots, as well as other magic items that set stats to a particular value, work like this: Calculate your walking speed (or stat) as you might normally, accounting for any bonuses, etc. Then, check the value and compare to the one listed in the item and use the item's set value if it is larger. I do not think this type of interaction is called out in the rules anywhere, but I believe they should function like AC: you can choose which calculation you use, but can't use more than one.
If you use this interpretation, then "order of operations" won't matter. Whether you put the boots on first or receive the benefit of the spell, your walking speed should become the same after all is tabulated. I think this parity is a key factor for making this interpretation more likely, because it makes the ruling much more simple (you don't have to worry about order of operations) and tends to be more in line with other bonuses in 5e.
I would agree with DxJxC and say it's very similar to those items that set an attribute to 19. Bonuses don't affect it - they affect your base attribute and if with bonuses it exceeds the magic item - then you use that value - otherwise you use the value given by the magic item.
So in this case - 35 ft.
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No, specific beats general doesn't cover this because none of the effects in question specifically oppose it. But that wasn't an actual rule, just a simplified conclusion based on several rules and rulings. And so far, no rules interaction has broken it (replacement effects are rare after all).
Think of it this way: the boots of striding and springing say "your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless your walking speed is higher." So if your walking speed were to suddenly become over 30 (like from polymorph, wild shape, monk levels, or longstrider) the boots would automatically stop applying that effect. This means that the boots are always checking your speed. So when the spell is cast on you, the boots check your speed, sees that it is higher than 30, and doesnt change it.
You could also think of it that longstrider on the boots speed makes your speed 40, 40 is higher than 30, boot stop applying, speed is 35.
That all makes sense. As for the quoted part, I had taken that to mean that the boots could not *reduce* your speed if you had a higher walking speed, not that it would remove the effect.
Heh. Effectively, DJC's analysis (which is, sadly, likely correct) simply means Longstrider continues to be an utter waste of a first-level spell slot. Sad, really. I like the idea of the spell, but it's just...so bad...
Please do not contact or message me.
How is it a waste? A wood elf ranger that casts longstrider on itself (not needing to maintain concentration, or drop Hunter's Mark) can kite enemies pretty effectively without danger of being caught. Without Longstrider, if you're trying to keep 10' of space from something Dashing to chase you, you can only shoot twice over five rounds even starting at 60'. With Longstrider, you can shoot four times in that same five rounds.
Longstrider (35 base + 10 enhance)
60 + 45 - 60 =45 (shoot)
45 +45 - 60 = 30 (shoot)
30 + 45 - 60 = 15 (shoot)
15 + 90 - 60 = 45 (run)
45 + 45 - 60 = 30 (shoot)
vs.
Base (35 feet movement)
60 + 35 - 60 = 35 (shoot)
35 + 35 - 60 = 10 (shoot)
10 + 70 - 60 = 20 (run)
20 + 70 - 60 = 30 (run)
30 + 70 - 60 = 40 (run) (or, shoot but end up caught within 5' after Enemy's dash)
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Sure. That's also an edge case that assumes several hundred feet of open terrain to move amongst and an absolute best case scenario for Longstrider. Virtually no other species, nor any other class, can make effective use of it. To then say that Longstrider and Boots of Striding and Springing effectively cancel each other out, to boot, just kinda feels really bad. Poor gnome guy.
Please do not contact or message me.
Owlin make longstrider better