I've had different discussions with different people about what "Initiative count 20" actually means when determining lair actions and when they happen in combat. What is your interpretation of this? The stat blocks in the MM (for Ancient Black Dragon, for example) speak of the lair actions happening on initiative count 20 (losing all ties), but it doesn't really do a decent job of explaining 'initiative count'. I have my own understanding of this, but I'm curious to see if there is a general consensus on this or if people read it differently.
Think of a lair as another monster in the encounter. It has a Dex modifier of +0 and automatically rolls a 20, but it loses all initiative ties. So, if another creature/trap/etc... also has a 20 initiative, it goes before the lair in the round (if there are multiple initiative counts of 20, they all go before the lair).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
UberAffe nailed it. It's at the beginning, so it kind of sets the tone for each round. So for Black Dragons, it could be darkness, swarms of insects, or the grasping tides.
Initiative Count is the order in which all interested parties take their turns in combat. Initiative Count 20 is the point in time when any and all parties who rolled a 20 on their initiative roll take their turn. The simplest way to think of it is to treat the Lair as a separate entity, controlled by the monster, which instead of rolling initiative, always gets to go after anyone who rolled 20 or higher, but before anyone who rolled 19 or lower.
Looks like a good general consensus so far. Good. This was my understanding of it as well. A friend of mine who DMs but is playing in my current campaign argued against me using a lair action every round, insisting that lair actions only happen on every 20th turn in combat (count 20). So if there are seven combatants in the encounter, the lair action wouldn't happen until the third round, before the last combatant in the round took their turn. The lair would act again on turn 40, 60, etc. I argued that this makes the lair actions rather pointless since they happen so infrequently, essentially decreasing the threat of encountering a legendary creature in their own lair.
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Looks like a good general consensus so far. Good. This was my understanding of it as well. A friend of mine who DMs but is playing in my current campaign argued against me using a lair action every round, insisting that lair actions only happen on every 20th turn in combat (count 20). So if there are seven combatants in the encounter, the lair action wouldn't happen until the third round, before the last combatant in the round took their turn. The lair would act again on turn 40, 60, etc. I argued that this makes the lair actions rather pointless since they happen so infrequently, essentially decreasing the threat of encountering a legendary creature in their own lair.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
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When taking the Lair actions, does that count for the action whom the lair belongs to, or is it seperate from his/her own actions?
It's separate. The lair is its own entity as far as turns go. Think of it as a completely different monster (even in the case of lairs that grant its owner attacks).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I know this topic is old but I have another question. What if the lair is huge and the combat is "paused" or the dragon is very far away before you normally say. Roll initiative.
Does a lair action occur every 6 seconds? For hours?
I am playing skt and wonder about klauth's lair which is mentioned as the whole area of klauth's vale which I think is and area you have to travel a day through. I mean if this is the case. Klauth can just fly away and let the lair do it's thing?! he is smart enough and the module even says he will use hit and run techniques.
Dies the dragon trigger the actions and needs to know about the intruders or is the lair always doing it and has a conscioness?
The implication is that the monster has some form of control over the lair that causes the lair actions (they're part of the monster entry), so I personally play it that the monster needs to be aware of the character.
That said, in the case of hit and run, absolutely it's ok for the dragon to punish the party with lair actions while it evades their attacks.
Usually a Lair is a clearly defined and specific area of not too great size (a room that is a few hundred feet across is the biggest I've seen and I wouldn't expect to find one much bigger tbh).
I don't know the scenario you are in but something that takes a day to get trough sounds way to big. I'd suggest a re-read of the rules of the place, it's possible that you missed something.
Edit:
Is it this Klauth guy? If so the lair actions all specify "the dragon can see" or "around the dragon" so he would have to be present for them to happen.
Is it this Klauth guy? If so the lair actions all specify "the dragon can see" or "around the dragon" so he would have to be present for them to happen.
Ah yes i didn't read the lair actions in detail. Only the part that the whole area is considered his lair.
But with this specifications that klauth has to be near the effect you completely answered my question!
The implication is that the monster has some form of control over the lair that causes the lair actions (they're part of the monster entry), so I personally play it that the monster needs to be aware of the character.
That said, in the case of hit and run, absolutely it's ok for the dragon to punish the party with lair actions while it evades their attacks.
Seems logically to me. Thank you both for your quick reply
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Hey everyone,
I've had different discussions with different people about what "Initiative count 20" actually means when determining lair actions and when they happen in combat. What is your interpretation of this? The stat blocks in the MM (for Ancient Black Dragon, for example) speak of the lair actions happening on initiative count 20 (losing all ties), but it doesn't really do a decent job of explaining 'initiative count'. I have my own understanding of this, but I'm curious to see if there is a general consensus on this or if people read it differently.
So... how do you interpret "Initiative Count 20"?
All the characters roll initiative and the Lair has an initiative score of 20 and it loses any ties.
Think of a lair as another monster in the encounter. It has a Dex modifier of +0 and automatically rolls a 20, but it loses all initiative ties. So, if another creature/trap/etc... also has a 20 initiative, it goes before the lair in the round (if there are multiple initiative counts of 20, they all go before the lair).
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
UberAffe nailed it. It's at the beginning, so it kind of sets the tone for each round. So for Black Dragons, it could be darkness, swarms of insects, or the grasping tides.
Initiative Count is the order in which all interested parties take their turns in combat. Initiative Count 20 is the point in time when any and all parties who rolled a 20 on their initiative roll take their turn. The simplest way to think of it is to treat the Lair as a separate entity, controlled by the monster, which instead of rolling initiative, always gets to go after anyone who rolled 20 or higher, but before anyone who rolled 19 or lower.
Looks like a good general consensus so far. Good. This was my understanding of it as well. A friend of mine who DMs but is playing in my current campaign argued against me using a lair action every round, insisting that lair actions only happen on every 20th turn in combat (count 20). So if there are seven combatants in the encounter, the lair action wouldn't happen until the third round, before the last combatant in the round took their turn. The lair would act again on turn 40, 60, etc. I argued that this makes the lair actions rather pointless since they happen so infrequently, essentially decreasing the threat of encountering a legendary creature in their own lair.
Initiative = 20 and in the case of ties, DM decides order (minor point, but always worth pointing out).
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Show that link to your friend if he still doesn't believe you/us.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
That's a really good point. Is that the case for other ones?
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Yea, all the dragon lair actions have the same starting description.
When taking the Lair actions, does that count for the action whom the lair belongs to, or is it seperate from his/her own actions?
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Awesome, thank you!
I know this topic is old but I have another question. What if the lair is huge and the combat is "paused" or the dragon is very far away before you normally say. Roll initiative.
Does a lair action occur every 6 seconds? For hours?
I am playing skt and wonder about klauth's lair which is mentioned as the whole area of klauth's vale which I think is and area you have to travel a day through. I mean if this is the case. Klauth can just fly away and let the lair do it's thing?! he is smart enough and the module even says he will use hit and run techniques.
Dies the dragon trigger the actions and needs to know about the intruders or is the lair always doing it and has a conscioness?
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D&D Beyond FoundersIt's very much up to the DM.
The implication is that the monster has some form of control over the lair that causes the lair actions (they're part of the monster entry), so I personally play it that the monster needs to be aware of the character.
That said, in the case of hit and run, absolutely it's ok for the dragon to punish the party with lair actions while it evades their attacks.
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Usually a Lair is a clearly defined and specific area of not too great size (a room that is a few hundred feet across is the biggest I've seen and I wouldn't expect to find one much bigger tbh).
I don't know the scenario you are in but something that takes a day to get trough sounds way to big. I'd suggest a re-read of the rules of the place, it's possible that you missed something.
Edit:
Is it this Klauth guy? If so the lair actions all specify "the dragon can see" or "around the dragon" so he would have to be present for them to happen.
Ah yes i didn't read the lair actions in detail. Only the part that the whole area is considered his lair.
But with this specifications that klauth has to be near the effect you completely answered my question!
Seems logically to me. Thank you both for your quick reply