You make a fair point. I was referring to a situation where a player might want an edge over the normal order of combat. I think your “advantage on initiative” description is a great reward for pulling off the skill check.
Rather than saying, “You can’t do this,” I think it is more productive to just shape the intentions of the players into the game as designed. If the player wants to ready the attack action before combat kicks off, then let them. Let them make a sleight of hand check against an appropriate DC and then immediately call for initiative to be rolled.
It's probably worth explaining to players that pretty much everyone is 'ready' if they know an enemy is present (i.e. not surprised), so they don't need to continually state it. That said, here's an option I haven't seen discussed yet:
Advantage on the Initiative roll? Even if an enemy isn't "Surprised", there still might be circumstances (like Sleight of Hand) that allows PC's to react quicker. A DM is free to bestow Advantage (or Disadvantage) for any circumstance they see fit.
this now completely negates the point and purpose of things in the game, such as a Barbarian having advantage on initiative.
now anyone can have that same skill essentially, at DMs discretion, by meta’ing, or being a murder hobo, or being overly prepared.
it sounds good in practice. But throws off the balance. If I was playing a barbarian in that group and that happened I would legit feel like I picked a class that has no meaning when skills just get diminished like that.
edit: Feral Instinct is a level 7 skill. It’s supposed to be balanced with the likes of a Rogue’s “evasion”
or the archetype features of Paladins, Fighters, Rangers.
would you give any PC the effects of evasion as a DM because they roll high on a perception roll pre-combat?
I take your point about stepping on abilities of other classes and races, but this isn't something unique to barbarians. Anyone can receive advantage on a dexterity ability check and therefore potentially advantage on initiative under the right circumstances.
I take your point about stepping on abilities of other classes and races, but this isn't something unique to barbarians. Anyone can receive advantage on a dexterity ability check and therefore potentially advantage on initiative under the right circumstances.
“Under the right circumstances”
agreed. But that would need to be more clearly established than the 2 scenarios of:
”any conversation with potentially hostile”
or
”opening any door with potential hostile on the other side”
it’s small semantics, like, if they got advantage on their first attack roll, because they were prepared vi their things.... significantly different than advantage on initiative.
I think you and I fundamentally agree about the need to be a responsible DM in terms of respecting a character's uniqueness while rewarding creativity. Maybe we just disagree a little on the extent of a given situation.
In terms of coming up with solutions on the spot, asking for an impromptu check is fine as long as it's pretty much for that session. But right now, we're on a board where we can rationally discuss the long-term effects. Like Killa said, Barbarians have advantage specifically on initiative as a feature and while DM's are allowed to adjudicate advantage at their discretion, giving them out on something so easy as saying "I get prepared for the fight" means that it could feel like that entire level-up feature was meaningless for the Barbarian. Carelessly giving out advantage can make things that give advantage less use since advantage doesn't stack. Like, if a DM gave advantage to a tracker because the quarry left a blood trail, well the Ranger who took that specific type, they don't get any more advantage than anyone else. And the Cleric that might have more Wisdom and proficiency with Perception becomes better than the Ranger, against their favored enemy, in their favored terrain.
If I was a befuddled DM at the time of the question and someone wanted to try "Ready an attack" out-of-combat, I'd just tell them to roll a Dexterity Check (No specific skill) and if they get higher than, say, a 15, they get a +1 bonus to the initiative they'd be rolling at that time. But I am aware of a more balanced ruling so I'll be using the Rules as Written and Intended.
Now, if it's fun for your players and they don't have any problem with this ruling, that's fine. But more than likely, this is a spur-of-the-moment type of decision so you wouldn't think of discussing it before playing, so take hazard and inform your players after you make hat ruling how you plan on ruling it anymore.
To come at the same thing from a different angle, if a player wants to stealthily unsheath his dagger and bring it up to strike while the bard's conversation with the goblin sentry is rapidly going downhill toward violence, I may give them an inspiration d20. If they want to use this on their initiative roll, then there you go. Seems like that lands squarely in the realm of RAW, RAI and Rules as Cool. I cannot imagine rewarding a player twice for using this gimmick though. Next thing you know, we will be at, "My owl flies by and takes the help action to give me advantage on my dexterity check." And then I have to choke a player and nobody at my table is into that.
this now completely negates the point and purpose of things in the game, such as a Barbarian having advantage on initiative.
Sometimes, good role-playing (like creating a distraction or somesuch) can allow for an Advantage on some rolls. That's how the game works. This does negate abilities of others to achieve that Advantage more regularly. A barbarian also has advantage on Strength checks while raging, but that doesn't mean no one else is allowed one (say, by using an improvised crowbar or ram).
while DM's are allowed to adjudicate advantage at their discretion, giving them out on something so easy as saying "I get prepared for the fight" means that it could feel like that entire level-up feature was meaningless for the Barbarian.
Agreed. I was referring to an infrequent use of Sleight of Hand (say during a parlay or something). I was not referring to "I ready an action", which I indicated is basically automatically assumed for everyone that is aware that an enemy is present.
this now completely negates the point and purpose of things in the game, such as a Barbarian having advantage on initiative.
Sometimes, good role-playing (like creating a distraction or somesuch) can allow for an Advantage on some rolls. That's how the game works. This does negate abilities of others to achieve that Advantage more regularly. A barbarian also has advantage on Strength checks while raging, but that doesn't mean no one else is allowed one (say, by using an improvised crowbar or ram).
As I am sure everyone can agree on.
theres a fine line between completely negating specific skills for specific purposes...
such as feral instinct, or favored enemy in the above ranger example, or a kenku/mastermind rogue/person with actor feat perfectly imitating a person...
than literally just anyone doing an action, that doesn’t require a roll of any kind. (In the OPs 2 examples)
To turn the question around, when are you not readying to attack?
In this dangerous world, everyone who is awake is on the lookout for danger and prepared to respond to it.
If a bugbear come through a door, you might say "I was readying to attack someone when they come through the door" but equally, the bugbear was "readying to attack someone as soon as it came through the door."
The corrent way to deal with this is to make a Dexterity check to see who gets to act first. In other words, an Initiative roll.
To turn the question around, when are you not readying to attack?
In this dangerous world, everyone who is awake is on the lookout for danger and prepared to respond to it.
If a bugbear come through a door, you might say "I was readying to attack someone when they come through the door" but equally, the bugbear was "readying to attack someone as soon as it came through the door."
The corrent way to deal with this is to make a Dexterity check to see who gets to act first. In other words, an Initiative roll.
There is one exception - surprise.
No, that's silly. You don't walk around with your sword out at all times, and you don't have a gun to the head of every single person you interact with.
If you did, you'd run into someone who's stronger than you, and they'd take offence and squash you.
'Readied' doesn't mean 'I'm expecting and prepared for trouble' it means 'I'm reeling back to take a swing at you. with the expectation that my fist will strike where your face is going to be, next turn.'
To turn the question around, when are you not readying to attack?
In this dangerous world, everyone who is awake is on the lookout for danger and prepared to respond to it.
If a bugbear come through a door, you might say "I was readying to attack someone when they come through the door" but equally, the bugbear was "readying to attack someone as soon as it came through the door."
The corrent way to deal with this is to make a Dexterity check to see who gets to act first. In other words, an Initiative roll.
There is one exception - surprise.
No, that's silly. You don't walk around with your sword out at all times, and you don't have a gun to the head of every single person you interact with.
If you did, you'd run into someone who's stronger than you, and they'd take offence and squash you.
'Readied' doesn't mean 'I'm expecting and prepared for trouble' it means 'I'm reeling back to take a swing at you. with the expectation that my fist will strike where your face is going to be, next turn.'
You would be surprised, (do you play AL?) how many people walk around without ever sheathing their weapons...
you don't have a gun to the head of every single person you interact with.
Joking aside: you can be surprised if you are aware of someone, but don't realize they are an enemy. However, if the enemies are aware of each other, they're not going to be surprised, which is as close as you get to 'everyone having a readied action' outside of combat (which you still can't do). Someone with a gun to their head would certainly ready an action too, were it allowed.
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You make a fair point. I was referring to a situation where a player might want an edge over the normal order of combat. I think your “advantage on initiative” description is a great reward for pulling off the skill check.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
this now completely negates the point and purpose of things in the game, such as a Barbarian having advantage on initiative.
now anyone can have that same skill essentially, at DMs discretion, by meta’ing, or being a murder hobo, or being overly prepared.
it sounds good in practice. But throws off the balance. If I was playing a barbarian in that group and that happened I would legit feel like I picked a class that has no meaning when skills just get diminished like that.
edit: Feral Instinct is a level 7 skill. It’s supposed to be balanced with the likes of a Rogue’s “evasion”
or the archetype features of Paladins, Fighters, Rangers.
would you give any PC the effects of evasion as a DM because they roll high on a perception roll pre-combat?
Blank
I take your point about stepping on abilities of other classes and races, but this isn't something unique to barbarians. Anyone can receive advantage on a dexterity ability check and therefore potentially advantage on initiative under the right circumstances.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
“Under the right circumstances”
agreed. But that would need to be more clearly established than the 2 scenarios of:
”any conversation with potentially hostile”
or
”opening any door with potential hostile on the other side”
it’s small semantics, like, if they got advantage on their first attack roll, because they were prepared vi their things.... significantly different than advantage on initiative.
Blank
I think you and I fundamentally agree about the need to be a responsible DM in terms of respecting a character's uniqueness while rewarding creativity. Maybe we just disagree a little on the extent of a given situation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes. That is accurate. It’s on the DM to maintain a balance
Blank
In terms of coming up with solutions on the spot, asking for an impromptu check is fine as long as it's pretty much for that session. But right now, we're on a board where we can rationally discuss the long-term effects. Like Killa said, Barbarians have advantage specifically on initiative as a feature and while DM's are allowed to adjudicate advantage at their discretion, giving them out on something so easy as saying "I get prepared for the fight" means that it could feel like that entire level-up feature was meaningless for the Barbarian. Carelessly giving out advantage can make things that give advantage less use since advantage doesn't stack. Like, if a DM gave advantage to a tracker because the quarry left a blood trail, well the Ranger who took that specific type, they don't get any more advantage than anyone else. And the Cleric that might have more Wisdom and proficiency with Perception becomes better than the Ranger, against their favored enemy, in their favored terrain.
If I was a befuddled DM at the time of the question and someone wanted to try "Ready an attack" out-of-combat, I'd just tell them to roll a Dexterity Check (No specific skill) and if they get higher than, say, a 15, they get a +1 bonus to the initiative they'd be rolling at that time. But I am aware of a more balanced ruling so I'll be using the Rules as Written and Intended.
Now, if it's fun for your players and they don't have any problem with this ruling, that's fine. But more than likely, this is a spur-of-the-moment type of decision so you wouldn't think of discussing it before playing, so take hazard and inform your players after you make hat ruling how you plan on ruling it anymore.
To come at the same thing from a different angle, if a player wants to stealthily unsheath his dagger and bring it up to strike while the bard's conversation with the goblin sentry is rapidly going downhill toward violence, I may give them an inspiration d20. If they want to use this on their initiative roll, then there you go. Seems like that lands squarely in the realm of RAW, RAI and Rules as Cool. I cannot imagine rewarding a player twice for using this gimmick though. Next thing you know, we will be at, "My owl flies by and takes the help action to give me advantage on my dexterity check." And then I have to choke a player and nobody at my table is into that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sometimes, good role-playing (like creating a distraction or somesuch) can allow for an Advantage on some rolls. That's how the game works. This does negate abilities of others to achieve that Advantage more regularly. A barbarian also has advantage on Strength checks while raging, but that doesn't mean no one else is allowed one (say, by using an improvised crowbar or ram).
Agreed. I was referring to an infrequent use of Sleight of Hand (say during a parlay or something). I was not referring to "I ready an action", which I indicated is basically automatically assumed for everyone that is aware that an enemy is present.
As I am sure everyone can agree on.
theres a fine line between completely negating specific skills for specific purposes...
such as feral instinct, or favored enemy in the above ranger example, or a kenku/mastermind rogue/person with actor feat perfectly imitating a person...
than literally just anyone doing an action, that doesn’t require a roll of any kind. (In the OPs 2 examples)
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Ex:
non combat
”I want to shout thief! As loud as I can, if someone tries to steal anything”
why should that get advantage?
Blank
To turn the question around, when are you not readying to attack?
In this dangerous world, everyone who is awake is on the lookout for danger and prepared to respond to it.
If a bugbear come through a door, you might say "I was readying to attack someone when they come through the door" but equally, the bugbear was "readying to attack someone as soon as it came through the door."
The corrent way to deal with this is to make a Dexterity check to see who gets to act first. In other words, an Initiative roll.
There is one exception - surprise.
No, that's silly. You don't walk around with your sword out at all times, and you don't have a gun to the head of every single person you interact with.
If you did, you'd run into someone who's stronger than you, and they'd take offence and squash you.
'Readied' doesn't mean 'I'm expecting and prepared for trouble' it means 'I'm reeling back to take a swing at you. with the expectation that my fist will strike where your face is going to be, next turn.'
You would be surprised, (do you play AL?) how many people walk around without ever sheathing their weapons...
Blank
Joking aside: you can be surprised if you are aware of someone, but don't realize they are an enemy. However, if the enemies are aware of each other, they're not going to be surprised, which is as close as you get to 'everyone having a readied action' outside of combat (which you still can't do). Someone with a gun to their head would certainly ready an action too, were it allowed.