My Dm is leaning towards the rules that only one spell effect can affect a creature from the same spell. (forgot the phb page) So he's leaning towards only 10 feet regardless how many times the blast hits. I see plenty of DMs going the other way stating that the blasts do stack because of the wording "When you hit a creature with eldritch blast," which would be over 10 feet with multiple hits. Is there an official ruling??
There isn't a ruling in sage advice, but it is pretty obvious how it works if you consider other options.
For example, grasp of hadar does the exact same thing as repelling blast, except it moves the creature closer. It specifies once per turn.
The rule your DM is citing that it can't stack doesn't apply to instantaneous effects. By that same argument, a creature cant take damage from more than one beam per turn. That rule is meant to be applied to the likes of bane.
There isn't a ruling in sage advice, but it is pretty obvious how it works if you consider other options.
For example, grasp of hadar does the exact same thing as repelling blast, except it moves the creature closer. It specifies once per turn.
The rule your DM is citing that it can't stack doesn't apply to instantaneous effects. By that same argument, a creature cant take damage from more than one beam per turn. That rule is meant to be applied to the likes of bane.
Grasp of Hadar is worded that way to allow you to only drag one creature closer, not 4 creatures with 4 beams. Repelling Blast is definitely able to repel 4 different creatures with your 4 beams, but that doesn't guarantee that it can repel the same creature 4 times.
I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously, so all of them have the same effect of pushing the target 10ft away from its current position. The result of that is a creature that has moved 10ft. If beams were to hit sequentially (as with a follow up Quickened Spell second Eldritch Blast) then the target(s) could be pushed another 10ft - but Grasp of Hadar could not be used to pull again even with a second casting of the spell.
Is this correct "I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously" I've been told its one cast that fires 4 sequential beams over your round (6 seconds)
It just wasn't deemed important enough to put in SAC. Repelling blast states that each hit pushes the target back. Each beam of eldritch blast is a separate hit whether they are simultaneous or spaced out. The effect is instantaneous so the rules preventing same spells overlapping doesn't happen (otherwise only 1 beam could do damage against a single target which I already mentioned).
It just wasn't deemed important enough to put in SAC. Repelling blast states that each hit pushes the target back. Each beam of eldritch blast is a separate hit whether they are simultaneous or spaced out. The effect is instantaneous so the rules preventing same spells overlapping doesn't happen (otherwise only 1 beam could do damage against a single target which I already mentioned).
That sage advice didn't answer this question at all. The question and answer was regarding whether both Agonizing and Repelling can be used on the same beam.
Is this correct "I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously" I've been told its one cast that fires 4 sequential beams over your round (6 seconds)
I don't think either is specifically called out in the rule book. My reading of the spell description makes me think it is simultaneous, but that might just be me.
Is this correct "I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously" I've been told its one cast that fires 4 sequential beams over your round (6 seconds)
I don't think either is specifically called out in the rule book. My reading of the spell description makes me think it is simultaneous, but that might just be me.
It doesn't actually matter whether it's simultaneous or not. The effect has no duration, so there's no possible "stacking" to be considered. Each beam is considered independently. If a player wants to flavor it as x beams hitting in series or as x beams hitting all at once, they're free to do so. It has no mechanical impact.
It just wasn't deemed important enough to put in SAC. Repelling blast states that each hit pushes the target back. Each beam of eldritch blast is a separate hit whether they are simultaneous or spaced out. The effect is instantaneous so the rules preventing same spells overlapping doesn't happen (otherwise only 1 beam could do damage against a single target which I already mentioned).
That sage advice didn't answer this question at all. The question and answer was regarding whether both Agonizing and Repelling can be used on the same beam.
Oh. So it is (always read the part in parenthesis). Never mind it then. I still refer you back to my almost full paragraph about how rules work.
It doesn't actually matter whether it's simultaneous or not. The effect has no duration, so there's no possible "stacking" to be considered. Each beam is considered independently. If a player wants to flavor it as x beams hitting in series or as x beams hitting all at once, they're free to do so. It has no mechanical impact.
In most cases, no there is no difference. But in the question in this post it could be the deciding factor. If 4 Repelling beams strike in sequence, each moving the target 10ft, then the net effect is 40ft movement. If 4 beams strike at once then there is an argument to be made that only one iteration of the forced movement takes effect. I agree with the latter. Others with the former.
This tweet would be the closest thing to an official ruling on the matter. Jeremy suggests the beams are sequential and can repel separately.
I don't really see the problem with allowing a 17th+ level warlock knocking back a single enemy 40 ft (if all 4 beams hit). There are going to be other enemies that can hound them instead.
I don't see any reason why the knockback would only happen once per target regardless of the number of beams hitting them.
It doesn't actually matter whether it's simultaneous or not. The effect has no duration, so there's no possible "stacking" to be considered. Each beam is considered independently. If a player wants to flavor it as x beams hitting in series or as x beams hitting all at once, they're free to do so. It has no mechanical impact.
In most cases, no there is no difference. But in the question in this post it could be the deciding factor. If 4 Repelling beams strike in sequence, each moving the target 10ft, then the net effect is 40ft movement. If 4 beams strike at once then there is an argument to be made that only one iteration of the forced movement takes effect. I agree with the latter. Others with the former.
This tweet would be the closest thing to an official ruling on the matter. Jeremy suggests the beams are sequential and can repel separately.
I don't particularly agree with it, but there it is...
Can you explain why exactly you think the effects shouldn’t be additive? I want to make sure I understand your position before trying again to answer it.
Others have already said this, but I just wanted to throw my support behind this explanation: The fact that Grasp of Hadar clarifies that it can only be used once per turn, implies that being able to use an Eldritch Blast modification invocation with each individual beam is the norm. There would otherwise be no reason to have different wording for the two invocations. It doesn't state once per target or once per casting of the spell, only that it triggers on a hit.
This is where the PHB throws a wrench in repelling blast. Some Dms side with this rule here and why eldritch blast only effects once without stacking.
Combining Magical Effects
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.
For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell's benefit only once; he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
That rule very explicitly states "while their durations overlap." Instantaneous spells have no duration, so overlapping is impossible. Additionally, it specifies "the same spell cast multiple times." Eldritch blast is only cast once in this question.
No wrench is thrown. That section of the PHB states clearly when the rule applies; it doesn't come into play here.
"REPELLING BLAST Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line"
"ELDRITCH BLAST Duration: Instantaneous A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage. The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam."
Since you make a separate attack roll for each beam - each beam is a separate hit with the eldritch blast cantrip. On each hit with the eldritch blast cantrip you can push the target back 10' with repelling blast.
"Combining Magical Effects
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap."
As mentioned the duration of eldritch blast is instantaneous so there are no issues with overlapping spell effects for it (especially since that clause applies to different spells). In addition, each casting of eldritch blast can fire multiple bolts each of which have a separate to hit roll and can hit separately BUT it is only one casting of the spell. So the rules on combining magical effects do NOT apply at all since there are neither overlaps in time or multiple spells being cast.
The rules are pretty clear, repelling blast applies to every hit with eldritch blast, eldritch blast can have multiple hits with multiple beams each of which has its own to-hit roll. As a result, repelling blast can be applied as many times as beams from the cantrip hit in a turn.
Finally, the invocation Grasp of Hadar which moves targets 10' closer to the warlock has specific wording limiting its application to one time each turn. This would not be required if these invocations could generally only be applied once/turn.
Folks are free to play however they want, but RAW, the rules are pretty clear that repelling blast would apply to every bolt from eldritch blast.
That rule very explicitly states "while their durations overlap." Instantaneous spells have no duration, so overlapping is impossible. Additionally, it specifies "the same spell cast multiple times." Eldritch blast is only cast once in this question.
No wrench is thrown. That section of the PHB states clearly when the rule applies; it doesn't come into play here.
I've mentioned that twice already. I also mentioned that the damage is an effect of the spell and if this rule applied to it, then multiple beams hitting a single target would only do damage once.
For some reason every time I've pointed out why the rule doesn't apply and how it would apply in ways that are clearly not intended if it did, got ignored every time and they argued with something else I said instead.
My argument (which, sadly, my current GM disagreed with :-( )
If my ranger has Extra Attack and hunter's mark active, I do the extra damage with all attacks made during the attack action. If I have a +1 sword and Extra Attack, I do the extra damage with all attacks. If my battlemaster fighter has Extra Attack, I can use a maneuver on all of attacks. Why not the same for Repelling Blast?
I spent an invocation on this. I get 8 of those, total, and I chose to spend 1 on repelling blast. Cut me some slack.
Can you explain why exactly you think the effects shouldn’t be additive? I want to make sure I understand your position before trying again to answer it.
I don't think it really needs to be answered further. I've just checked pretty extensively, and Repelling Eldritch Blast is a completely unique situation. There are zero other spells I can find which fire off multiple instances of themself in a single casting, can target the same creature more than once in that casting, and have any effect other than damage. Thus there are no genuine parallels to draw to support either interpretation, and doing so is counterproductive.
My interpretation was based on an assumption of simultaneous beams. Jeremy's tweet suggests the beams are sequential, though I couldn't guess exactly which words written in the rule book make that certain to be the case. If the beams were simultaneous then I would consider the movement to be similarly simultaneous, and non-additive for reasons of how I feel non-damage effects of the same spell generally don't stack.
Again, I don't think this position needs to be debated, but you asked for clarification of my position. Jeremy's tweet (if taken as a ruling) makes it moot. I fully understand the counterposition - I just still don't agree with it. And that's ok.
My Dm is leaning towards the rules that only one spell effect can affect a creature from the same spell. (forgot the phb page) So he's leaning towards only 10 feet regardless how many times the blast hits. I see plenty of DMs going the other way stating that the blasts do stack because of the wording "When you hit a creature with eldritch blast," which would be over 10 feet with multiple hits. Is there an official ruling??
There isn't a ruling in sage advice, but it is pretty obvious how it works if you consider other options.
For example, grasp of hadar does the exact same thing as repelling blast, except it moves the creature closer. It specifies once per turn.
The rule your DM is citing that it can't stack doesn't apply to instantaneous effects. By that same argument, a creature cant take damage from more than one beam per turn. That rule is meant to be applied to the likes of bane.
Grasp of Hadar is worded that way to allow you to only drag one creature closer, not 4 creatures with 4 beams. Repelling Blast is definitely able to repel 4 different creatures with your 4 beams, but that doesn't guarantee that it can repel the same creature 4 times.
I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously, so all of them have the same effect of pushing the target 10ft away from its current position. The result of that is a creature that has moved 10ft. If beams were to hit sequentially (as with a follow up Quickened Spell second Eldritch Blast) then the target(s) could be pushed another 10ft - but Grasp of Hadar could not be used to pull again even with a second casting of the spell.
Is this correct "I would argue that the beams are cast and strike simultaneously" I've been told its one cast that fires 4 sequential beams over your round (6 seconds)
Hey look, an unofficial sage advice answering this very question: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/21/can-agonizing-blast-repelling-blast-stack/
It just wasn't deemed important enough to put in SAC. Repelling blast states that each hit pushes the target back. Each beam of eldritch blast is a separate hit whether they are simultaneous or spaced out. The effect is instantaneous so the rules preventing same spells overlapping doesn't happen (otherwise only 1 beam could do damage against a single target which I already mentioned).
That sage advice didn't answer this question at all. The question and answer was regarding whether both Agonizing and Repelling can be used on the same beam.
I don't think either is specifically called out in the rule book. My reading of the spell description makes me think it is simultaneous, but that might just be me.
It doesn't actually matter whether it's simultaneous or not. The effect has no duration, so there's no possible "stacking" to be considered. Each beam is considered independently. If a player wants to flavor it as x beams hitting in series or as x beams hitting all at once, they're free to do so. It has no mechanical impact.
Oh. So it is (always read the part in parenthesis). Never mind it then. I still refer you back to my almost full paragraph about how rules work.
In most cases, no there is no difference. But in the question in this post it could be the deciding factor. If 4 Repelling beams strike in sequence, each moving the target 10ft, then the net effect is 40ft movement. If 4 beams strike at once then there is an argument to be made that only one iteration of the forced movement takes effect. I agree with the latter. Others with the former.
This tweet would be the closest thing to an official ruling on the matter. Jeremy suggests the beams are sequential and can repel separately.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/616020559600599040?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
I don't particularly agree with it, but there it is...
I don't really see the problem with allowing a 17th+ level warlock knocking back a single enemy 40 ft (if all 4 beams hit). There are going to be other enemies that can hound them instead.
I don't see any reason why the knockback would only happen once per target regardless of the number of beams hitting them.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Can you explain why exactly you think the effects shouldn’t be additive? I want to make sure I understand your position before trying again to answer it.
Others have already said this, but I just wanted to throw my support behind this explanation: The fact that Grasp of Hadar clarifies that it can only be used once per turn, implies that being able to use an Eldritch Blast modification invocation with each individual beam is the norm. There would otherwise be no reason to have different wording for the two invocations. It doesn't state once per target or once per casting of the spell, only that it triggers on a hit.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
This is where the PHB throws a wrench in repelling blast. Some Dms side with this rule here and why eldritch blast only effects once without stacking.
Combining Magical Effects
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.
For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell's benefit only once; he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
That rule very explicitly states "while their durations overlap." Instantaneous spells have no duration, so overlapping is impossible. Additionally, it specifies "the same spell cast multiple times." Eldritch blast is only cast once in this question.
No wrench is thrown. That section of the PHB states clearly when the rule applies; it doesn't come into play here.
"REPELLING BLAST
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line"
"ELDRITCH BLAST
Duration: Instantaneous
A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage. The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam."
Since you make a separate attack roll for each beam - each beam is a separate hit with the eldritch blast cantrip. On each hit with the eldritch blast cantrip you can push the target back 10' with repelling blast.
"Combining Magical Effects
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap."
As mentioned the duration of eldritch blast is instantaneous so there are no issues with overlapping spell effects for it (especially since that clause applies to different spells). In addition, each casting of eldritch blast can fire multiple bolts each of which have a separate to hit roll and can hit separately BUT it is only one casting of the spell. So the rules on combining magical effects do NOT apply at all since there are neither overlaps in time or multiple spells being cast.
The rules are pretty clear, repelling blast applies to every hit with eldritch blast, eldritch blast can have multiple hits with multiple beams each of which has its own to-hit roll. As a result, repelling blast can be applied as many times as beams from the cantrip hit in a turn.
Finally, the invocation Grasp of Hadar which moves targets 10' closer to the warlock has specific wording limiting its application to one time each turn. This would not be required if these invocations could generally only be applied once/turn.
Folks are free to play however they want, but RAW, the rules are pretty clear that repelling blast would apply to every bolt from eldritch blast.
Nicely put David42 and thanks everyone for your answers
I've mentioned that twice already. I also mentioned that the damage is an effect of the spell and if this rule applied to it, then multiple beams hitting a single target would only do damage once.
For some reason every time I've pointed out why the rule doesn't apply and how it would apply in ways that are clearly not intended if it did, got ignored every time and they argued with something else I said instead.
My argument (which, sadly, my current GM disagreed with :-( )
If my ranger has Extra Attack and hunter's mark active, I do the extra damage with all attacks made during the attack action. If I have a +1 sword and Extra Attack, I do the extra damage with all attacks. If my battlemaster fighter has Extra Attack, I can use a maneuver on all of attacks. Why not the same for Repelling Blast?
I spent an invocation on this. I get 8 of those, total, and I chose to spend 1 on repelling blast. Cut me some slack.
I don't think it really needs to be answered further. I've just checked pretty extensively, and Repelling Eldritch Blast is a completely unique situation. There are zero other spells I can find which fire off multiple instances of themself in a single casting, can target the same creature more than once in that casting, and have any effect other than damage. Thus there are no genuine parallels to draw to support either interpretation, and doing so is counterproductive.
My interpretation was based on an assumption of simultaneous beams. Jeremy's tweet suggests the beams are sequential, though I couldn't guess exactly which words written in the rule book make that certain to be the case. If the beams were simultaneous then I would consider the movement to be similarly simultaneous, and non-additive for reasons of how I feel non-damage effects of the same spell generally don't stack.
Again, I don't think this position needs to be debated, but you asked for clarification of my position. Jeremy's tweet (if taken as a ruling) makes it moot. I fully understand the counterposition - I just still don't agree with it. And that's ok.