That's my reputation? Ouch. I just believe in what's written on the page and building up my understanding word by word, instead of starting with an assumption ("the intent is x") and then interpreting/adding language through that lens. The fact that this is a radical and unwelcome perspective in a Rules and Mechanics forum is consistently surprising to me.
If you're determined to dismiss my arguments fine, but if you're simply thinking that I'm misinterpreting written text... tell me where in this process we depart:
We start as a level 5 normal LG human Druid who has a 16 in all their mental stats, proficiency in Intelligence and Wisdom saves, proficiency in Animal Handling and Perception, and a bunch of other skills and junk based on feats and backgrounds etc. Chapter 7 tells us how to calculate the values for our ability checks (ability modifier, + our proficiency bonus if proficient). Our proficiency bonus value either comes from our Class (see Druid class table and features), or some have argued it doesn't come from your Class but instead from Chapter 1. In either event, there is no mention anywhere in the PHB of potentially having two different Proficiency Bonus values that apply to different sets of skills/saves, nor is there any mention anywhere in the PHB of being allowed to optionally put a pin in skill/save bonus values and not constantly calculate your skill/save bonuses based on your current attribute and proficiency bonus values whenever they change.
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."
Okay, I'm a Wolf in every single respect, except I have a LG alignment and 16 Intelligence, 16 Wisdom, 16 Cha from my base form. Everything else from my character sheet is gone, just as if I'd been Polymorphed
Proficiencies and skills? Perception +5 (3 Wisdom +2 Wolf Proficiency bonus), Stealth +4 (2 Dexterity + 2 WPB)
"You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."
Okay, now I add back in that I have proficiency (am allowed to add PB to my attribute modifier) in my original skills and saves I had before Wild Shaping.
"If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
At this point, it matters quite a bit whether we're reading the rules in totality (see bullet # 4), or trying to figure this out line by line and then willing to go back and correct our work later. Since #4 is in dispute, I'll just go in order.
Okay, the Wolf and the Druid both had proficiency in Perception, so we can check: was the the Wolf's bonus in its MM stat block (+3) higher than the value we've calculated while wild shaped (+5)? No.
[The next two bullets and their sentences are not relevant to this discussion of skill/save bonuses or proficiency bonuses if we go chronologically, but become relevant again after we get our class/race/features back]
Operates to establish that we use the Beast's physical attributes without our humanoid racial bonuses, the Beast's hit points instead of our class Hit Points calculation, can't use our Spellcasting feature to cast spells, etc.
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
We certainly all seem to agree that we keep the benefit of our specially named unique class features we've earned as a Druid 4 (Druidic, Spellcasting, Wild Shape, Druid Circle). Are we willing to agree that we also keep the benefit of generically named class features (Hit Points, Proficiencies, Equipment)? Apparently not, even though I think that bullets two and three would let us retain them and overwrite them with a specific exception, without any bizarre consequences.
A race's special qualities are actually called "Traits"... are we willing to agree that Racial Traits are Racial Features? If so, is it our position that we only retain the benefit of any special racial traits (for a basic human, that would appear to be "Languages"?), or are we willing to agree that the benefit of generically named race traits (Ability Score Increase, Age, Alignment, Size, Speed) are also retained? I think you don't accept that the generic traits are retained, even though I think that bullets two and three and the introduction to Wild Shape would let us retain them and overwrite them with specific exceptions, without any bizarre consequences.
Feats are certainly an example of an "other source" of features, but are there any other sources that you'll recognize? Are the benefits of your total class levels (proficiency bonus value) retained? You say no. Is your class identity retained when it benefits you (such as when trying to attune to a class-restricted item)? Are the benefits of your background still in effect? Any other "other sources" we should be aware of?
So we're at the fork in the road here, what it all comes down to. Either:
A: We've gotten our charater's normal proficiency bonus value back as a "class feature" or "other feature", and now can start using Character Proficiency Bonus (CPB) for everything. Recalculate Step 3 for CPB instead of WPB.
Proficiencies and skills? Perception +6 (3 Wisdom +3 CPB), Stealth +5 (2 Dexterity + 3 CPB), Animal Handing +6 (3 Charisma + 3 CPB), Intelligence Saves +6 (3 Int + 3 CPB), Wisdom Saves +6 (3 Wisdom + 3 CPB). Also check point #4 again (still "no").
ORB: We haven't gotten our character's normal proficiency bonus value back, and must continue using Wolf Proficiency Bonus (WPB) not only for our list of skills and saves, but also other things like basic attacks.
[More bullets that aren't relevant to skills/saves/proficiency bonuses]...
That's it, that's the language and steps that my perspective is based on. To arrive at a conclusion that your Druid proficiencies keep using your CPB (which is between 2-6, depending on character level), but that your new Wolf proficiencies use a different WPB (which is always 2 in their stat block), I don't see any way you get there without adding new language. It's not just that I think your view is wrong, it's that I just don't see what language you're pointing to. How does that make me the unreasonable one?
The nearest thing that I can figure, is that your camp relies on reading "your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "your skill and saving throw bonuses". I honestly am not sure that a derived "skill bonus" value is even a real 5E game term, since Chapter 7 never tells you to calculate one, it just tells you to do an Attribute Check and then add proficiency bonus value if proficient each and every time... obviously a derived skill bonus total is something we're all accustomed to using since there's a spot for it on the character sheet, but that doesn't mean that Wild Shape is somehow referring to this concept (without saying that it is) while using "proficiencies" as a short hand which has a completely different defined game meaning???
I honestly don't care what is right about skill and saving throw proficiencies because the brunt of my argument is that they are treated differently than the proficiencies that are not called out specifically in bullet 1: namely the beast's attacks. The beast's attacks are left alone. And by the way, if I'm playing with a houserule on that, you'd better also tell DDB.
"I don't care" is about what I expected, see post #39 earlier, the arguments presented by you and Dx to support your claims seem to come down to "I don't care what the text actually says, I just want them to be treated differently." Thanks for clearing that up.
I don't think it's off-topic to be discussing what your Athletics score and attacks will be based on while Wild Shaped, given the title of this thread, but apologies for any disrespect to anyone.
You're welcome. I want the ones that say they should be treated differently to be treated differently because they are called out that way. Again, that is text on the page. I'm glad you're in agreement now.
They don't say they should be treated differently. You haven't once quoted a single word that says they should be treated differently. You "retain" your proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently, I honestly am very curious?
Allow me to rephrase then, so that you can engage with the question:
You "retain" your own skill and save proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's skill and save proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently?
You have successfully convinced me that the wording of beast shape in the PHB is sloppy. I think the intent is to always use the wolf's PB (possibly doubled) for anything the wolf is proficient in, the druid's PB for things the druid is proficient in, and the better of the two for shared proficiencies, but it isn't very clear. Note that if the beast's PB can be overwritten by the druid's PB, there are several other abilities (attack bonus, save DC) that are apparently using PB but not actually saying they are; for example, the wolf is apparently using Dex to bite and is proficient at it, save DC is apparently based on Str (Dire Wolf bases both Bite and Knockdown on Str), so you'd expect those to increase if PB can overwrite.
Going further afield:
If a wolf drinks a potion of Hill Giant Strength (increasing its Str to 21) what is its attack? It should probably be +7/2d4+5, save DC 15 (assuming bite is a finesse weapon but can still be used with Str) but we're never actually told how to calculate that. Repeat thought experiment with a druid-wolf.
Allow me to rephrase then, so that you can engage with the question:
You "retain" your own skill and save proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's skill and save proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently?
"I don't care" is about what I expected, see post #39 earlier, the arguments presented by you and Dx to support your claims seem to come down to "I don't care what the text actually says, I just want them to be treated differently." Thanks for clearing that up.
I do care what the text actually says. I based my answer on the wording of the wildshape entry in the PHB and the monster proficiency entry in the MM. You treat them differently because the rules say you can choose between 2 ways of treating them if you share proficiencies with the beast. That line wouldn't be there if they were treated the same regardless.
Allow me to rephrase then, so that you can engage with the question:
You "retain" your own skill and save proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's skill and save proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently?
Proficiency bonus in this case is tricky. Proficiency bonus is never described as a class feature. The wildshape feature doesn't say you keep your proficiency bonus when shifted, but it does say "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." Which implies (but does not directly state) that you use your proficiency bonus on for character proficiencies, and not one the beasts proficiencies.
Regardless, the MM says that a monster's skill bonus includes but is not limited to proficiency bonus and the wildshape feature does not say the beast's proficiency changes (only 3 abilities).
I base my rulings on the whole of the rule with as few assumptions as possible. The wildshape rules refer to 2 different bonuses, one of the character and one of the beast. So that is what I go with: 2 different skill bonuses that include 2 different proficiency bonuses.
You have successfully convinced me that the wording of beast shape in the PHB is sloppy. I think the intent is to always use the wolf's PB (possibly doubled) for anything the wolf is proficient in, the druid's PB for things the druid is proficient in, and the better of the two for shared proficiencies, but it isn't very clear. Note that if the beast's PB can be overwritten by the druid's PB, there are several other abilities (attack bonus, save DC) that are apparently using PB but not actually saying they are; for example, the wolf is apparently using Dex to bite and is proficient at it, save DC is apparently based on Str (Dire Wolf bases both Bite and Knockdown on Str), so you'd expect those to increase if PB can overwrite.
Going further afield:
If a wolf drinks a potion of Hill Giant Strength (increasing its Str to 21) what is its attack? It should probably be +7/2d4+5, save DC 15 (assuming bite is a finesse weapon but can still be used with Str) but we're never actually told how to calculate that. Repeat thought experiment with a druid-wolf.
Sounds like you have the same understanding/interpretation of the wildshape skill/save proficiencies as it do (including that they are written poorly).
As for the wolf with potion scenario, unfortunately the rules don't say, and is up to DM.
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That's my reputation? Ouch. I just believe in what's written on the page and building up my understanding word by word, instead of starting with an assumption ("the intent is x") and then interpreting/adding language through that lens. The fact that this is a radical and unwelcome perspective in a Rules and Mechanics forum is consistently surprising to me.
If you're determined to dismiss my arguments fine, but if you're simply thinking that I'm misinterpreting written text... tell me where in this process we depart:
That's it, that's the language and steps that my perspective is based on. To arrive at a conclusion that your Druid proficiencies keep using your CPB (which is between 2-6, depending on character level), but that your new Wolf proficiencies use a different WPB (which is always 2 in their stat block), I don't see any way you get there without adding new language. It's not just that I think your view is wrong, it's that I just don't see what language you're pointing to. How does that make me the unreasonable one?
The nearest thing that I can figure, is that your camp relies on reading "your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "your skill and saving throw bonuses". I honestly am not sure that a derived "skill bonus" value is even a real 5E game term, since Chapter 7 never tells you to calculate one, it just tells you to do an Attribute Check and then add proficiency bonus value if proficient each and every time... obviously a derived skill bonus total is something we're all accustomed to using since there's a spot for it on the character sheet, but that doesn't mean that Wild Shape is somehow referring to this concept (without saying that it is) while using "proficiencies" as a short hand which has a completely different defined game meaning???
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I honestly don't care what is right about skill and saving throw proficiencies because the brunt of my argument is that they are treated differently than the proficiencies that are not called out specifically in bullet 1: namely the beast's attacks. The beast's attacks are left alone. And by the way, if I'm playing with a houserule on that, you'd better also tell DDB.
"I don't care" is about what I expected, see post #39 earlier, the arguments presented by you and Dx to support your claims seem to come down to "I don't care what the text actually says, I just want them to be treated differently." Thanks for clearing that up.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think you guys have gotten off topic. Please try to stay on topic to the question at hand, and be polite and respectful with your posts.
Thank You.
-Bobo
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
I don't think it's off-topic to be discussing what your Athletics score and attacks will be based on while Wild Shaped, given the title of this thread, but apologies for any disrespect to anyone.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You're welcome. I want the ones that say they should be treated differently to be treated differently because they are called out that way. Again, that is text on the page. I'm glad you're in agreement now.
They don't say they should be treated differently. You haven't once quoted a single word that says they should be treated differently. You "retain" your proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently, I honestly am very curious?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You left words out. You gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiencies. That means you do not gain the other proficiencies that the beast has.
Allow me to rephrase then, so that you can engage with the question:
You "retain" your own skill and save proficiencies. You "gain" the Beast's skill and save proficiencies. Whatever the answer is to "what is my proficiency bonus right now?", where does it say that you treat them differently?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You have successfully convinced me that the wording of beast shape in the PHB is sloppy. I think the intent is to always use the wolf's PB (possibly doubled) for anything the wolf is proficient in, the druid's PB for things the druid is proficient in, and the better of the two for shared proficiencies, but it isn't very clear. Note that if the beast's PB can be overwritten by the druid's PB, there are several other abilities (attack bonus, save DC) that are apparently using PB but not actually saying they are; for example, the wolf is apparently using Dex to bite and is proficient at it, save DC is apparently based on Str (Dire Wolf bases both Bite and Knockdown on Str), so you'd expect those to increase if PB can overwrite.
Going further afield:
If a wolf drinks a potion of Hill Giant Strength (increasing its Str to 21) what is its attack? It should probably be +7/2d4+5, save DC 15 (assuming bite is a finesse weapon but can still be used with Str) but we're never actually told how to calculate that. Repeat thought experiment with a druid-wolf.
I think you have misunderstood my position.
I do care what the text actually says. I based my answer on the wording of the wildshape entry in the PHB and the monster proficiency entry in the MM. You treat them differently because the rules say you can choose between 2 ways of treating them if you share proficiencies with the beast. That line wouldn't be there if they were treated the same regardless.
Proficiency bonus in this case is tricky. Proficiency bonus is never described as a class feature. The wildshape feature doesn't say you keep your proficiency bonus when shifted, but it does say "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." Which implies (but does not directly state) that you use your proficiency bonus on for character proficiencies, and not one the beasts proficiencies.
Regardless, the MM says that a monster's skill bonus includes but is not limited to proficiency bonus and the wildshape feature does not say the beast's proficiency changes (only 3 abilities).
I base my rulings on the whole of the rule with as few assumptions as possible. The wildshape rules refer to 2 different bonuses, one of the character and one of the beast. So that is what I go with: 2 different skill bonuses that include 2 different proficiency bonuses.
Sounds like you have the same understanding/interpretation of the wildshape skill/save proficiencies as it do (including that they are written poorly).
As for the wolf with potion scenario, unfortunately the rules don't say, and is up to DM.