You don't have a seperate Skill Proficiency Bonus, Save Proficiency Bonus, Attack Proficiency Bonus, Save DC Proficiency Bonus, etc. You have one proficiency bonus which applies to one or more things that you are proficient in. There are no rules that control what it would look like for a single character/creature to have more than one Proficiency Bonus value, which is a near-certain argument against that being the case.
The first bullet point of Wildshape does not say you can use your PB or the monster's PB for overlapping skills, that is a very imprecise and inaccurate reading. It says:
You have your same list of skill and save proficiencies you already had
You also have the skill and save proficiencies that the Beast had, in case it had any extras
[It does not say anything about not using the normal Ability Check rules, so we can insert here "see Chapter 7 yada yada it's (Stat bonus) + (character's Proficiency bonus, if proficient)"
IF you and the beast both have the same skill, and IF the printed value in the MM entry for that skill shows a higher number than is arrived by adding Proficiency Bonus + Stat Bonus (see e.g. Giant Owl and its unusually high Perception), THEN you can use the printed value in the MM. This does not tell you to use the creature's Proficiency Bonus to do the normal Ability Check formula, it tells you to sub in a printed skill bonus value.
Nothing in the first bullet ever tells you to base anything off of the Beast's Proficiency Bonus. You are only ever given the opportunity to use its total skill bonus value, not the creature's proficiency bonus. There is no invitation to ever open the door to this bizarre "one creature two Proficiency Bonus values" nonsense, it just simply doesn't appear in the Wild Shape rules anywhere.
There are two sources for proficiency in wildshape: the druid or the beast. Proficiency bonuses for the beast come from the stat block (that's what "use the creature’s bonus" means). Your bonuses come from your new ability scores (after transforming) and your proficiency bonus (this is how DDB calculates skills, and I have been convinced it is a legitimate reading). If you are not proficient in something but the beast is, your only option is to use the beast's bonus. That much seems pretty obvious from RAW.
There are two sources for proficiency in wildshape: the druid or the beast. Proficiency bonuses for the beast come from the stat block (that's what "use the creature’s bonus" means). Your bonuses come from your new ability scores (after transforming) and your proficiency bonus (this is how DDB calculates skills, and I have been convinced it is a legitimate reading). If you are not proficient in something but the beast is, your only option is to use the beast's bonus. That much seems pretty obvious from RAW.
That is quite explicitly not how the first bullet point works. You gain your beast's skill proficiencies in skills you didn't already have and re-calculate them, you do not just use the beast's bonus.
There are two sources for proficiency in wildshape: the druid or the beast. Proficiency bonuses for the beast come from the stat block (that's what "use the creature’s bonus" means). Your bonuses come from your new ability scores (after transforming) and your proficiency bonus (this is how DDB calculates skills, and I have been convinced it is a legitimate reading). If you are not proficient in something but the beast is, your only option is to use the beast's bonus. That much seems pretty obvious from RAW.
That is quite explicitly not how the first bullet point works. You gain your beast's skill proficiencies in skills you didn't already have and re-calculate them, you do not just use the beast's bonus.
That is completely backwards. You transform into a beast ("Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast") thereby gaining its proficiences ("...in addition to gaining those of the creature")and you retain your proficiencies ("You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies"). That part doesn't matter. Bullet point 1 does not tell you to recalculate anything for the beast. Stop saying that or point to any text that indicates you are correct.
Okay. Lets say that I'm a multiclass Druid with 16 Wis but no proficiency in Wisdom saves (I started out Fighter or something). I wildshape into a Spider King, which has a Wisdom Save of +2 based on its 11 Wisdom in its stat block. I am granted the Spider King's WIS save proficiency, and recalculate it using my own Wisdom that I brought with me, to now have a Wisdom save of [my proficiency bonus]+3. I carry with me my Strength save proficiency, which the Spider didn't have, and recalculate that too using the Spider's Strength which I've replaced for my own, to now have a Strength save of [my proficiency bonus]+2. Oh did I mention I also have the Tough feat, so I recalculate the Spider King's 44 hit points to add +2 per each of my class levels. Hey I also have a level of Barbarian and would like to recalculate my Spider AC, totally ok to do that too. When I'm raging, I'd also like to recalculate the damage die of my Spider's Bite Attack (now we're getting on shaky ground, it doesn't seem to be Strength-based, or see Sigred's post it may not be based on anything at all, but you get my drift).
Recalculating the Beast's numbers is something that you must do when Wildshaped. I don't see anything in the Wild Shape description that would allow you to only recalculate some of the things to which your proficiency bonus applies, but not others.
But that said, Sigred made the best point so far: proficiency bonuses may not be a part of the printed special attacks and abilities in a monster's stat block or their save DCs, and also becoming wildshaped does not grant you proficiency with natural weapons (arguable whether a creature always has proficiency with the attacks granted by its form in the same way that a creature always has proficiency with its own unarmed strikes, I won't say that that's a given). IF Proficiency Bonus value is retained as a feature (and I think its quite clear that it is, else bullet one of Wild Shape goes off the rails), then Sigred's are the only two good arguments I've heard yet against re-calculating the attack entries for your form.
Druid is proficient, beast is not: use stat bonus of current form (animal's bonus for str/dex/con, druid's for int/wis/cha) plus druid's proficiency bonus.
Beast is proficient, druid is not: use stat bonus of current form plus the beast's proficiency bonus (which might be doubled; e.g. spider stealth)
Both are proficient: use whichever is better (note that a level 5 druid who is proficient in stealth, shifted into spider which has double proficiency in stealth, chooses between +3 and +4, they can't double their personal proficiency).
As druids are not proficient with 'natural weapons', any natural weapon attacks use the beast's attack bonus. A feat that grants proficiency in natural weapons is probably plausible. My original question was whether things like knockdown and grappling were assumed to be the beast having an inherent limited proficiency which can be overridden by the druid's skills.
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
What does this sentence mean, then?
It mean use the creature's total printed skill bonus (whatever total value is printed in the MM), not calculate a total using the Ability Check formula using a creature's proficiency bonus. The practical effect of this is to capture hidden racial bonuses (like those that the Giant Owl gets to perception), not to somehow ask a player to balance two different Proficiency Bonus values (again, there's really no rules about how one would even try to attempt that).
Druid is proficient, beast is not: use stat bonus of current form (animal's bonus for str/dex/con, druid's for int/wis/cha) plus druid's proficiency bonus.
Beast is proficient, druid is not: use stat bonus of current form plus the beast's proficiency bonus (which might be doubled; e.g. spider stealth)
Both are proficient: use whichever is better (note that a level 5 druid who is proficient in stealth, shifted into spider which has double proficiency in stealth, chooses between +3 and +4, they can't double their personal proficiency).
As druids are not proficient with 'natural weapons', any natural weapon attacks use the beast's attack bonus. A feat that grants proficiency in natural weapons is probably plausible. My original question was whether things like knockdown and grappling were assumed to be the beast having an inherent limited proficiency which can be overridden by the druid's skills.
Your bullet two is wrong though, whether or not you buy into everything else I'm saying. I won't keep banging the same drum, but please read that point for Wild Shape very very carefully, because it is more complicated than the rest.
Druid is proficient, beast is not: use stat bonus of current form (animal's bonus for str/dex/con, druid's for int/wis/cha) plus druid's proficiency bonus.
Beast is proficient, druid is not: use stat bonus of current form plus the beast's proficiency bonus (which might be doubled; e.g. spider stealth)
Both are proficient: use whichever is better (note that a level 5 druid who is proficient in stealth, shifted into spider which has double proficiency in stealth, chooses between +3 and +4, they can't double their personal proficiency).
As druids are not proficient with 'natural weapons', any natural weapon attacks use the beast's attack bonus. A feat that grants proficiency in natural weapons is probably plausible. My original question was whether things like knockdown and grappling were assumed to be the beast having an inherent limited proficiency which can be overridden by the druid's skills.
Your bullet two is wrong though, whether or not you buy into everything else I'm saying. I won't keep banging the same drum, but please read that point for Wild Shape very very carefully, because it is more complicated than the rest.
Um... there is actually no difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying. The printed bonus is in fact equal to the beast's proficiency bonus, possibly doubled. The giant owl does not have a hidden bonus, it has a doubled proficiency bonus (thus Wisdom+4 instead of Wisdom+2).
Panta, there is a difference. Here, let's use Clawfoot Raptor instead of Giant Owl, since a much lower level Druid can use a raptor instead of an 8th level druid for the owl. Level 4 Druid, 14 wisdom, no proficiency in Perception will be our baseline.
Druid's normal non-proficient Perception: +2 (2 wis + 0 prof)
Clawfoot Raptor's normal Perception in its stat block: +5 (1 wis + 2 prof + 2 misc). Quite possible that the extra +2 is from the Raptor having "Expertise" (double proficiency bonus), but that isn't defined, so we'll just call it a misc. +2 bonus to be safe.
That same Druid Wild Shaped into that same raptor: +4 (2 wis + 2 prof)
Now if instead our same Level 4 Druid, 14 wisdom, does have proficiency in Perception in his humanoid form, things look a little different:
Druid's normal proficient Perception: +4 (2 wis + 2 prof)
Clawfoot Raptor's normal Perception in its stat block: +5 (1 wis + 2 prof + 2 misc).
That same Druid Wild Shaped into that same raptor: +5 (2 wis + 2 prof = 4, which is less than the Raptor's printed bonus when both share overlapping proficiency in the skill, so use the raptor's printed skill bonus instead)
This has nothing to do with my argument about your proficiency bonus being a class feature, this just straight up is exactly what that bullet point tells you to do when read closely. If you disagree with everything else I have written in this thread up to this point, this nevertheless is 100% true and how that feature works for skills and saves. This is probably the single most often mis-applied rule in 5E (we aren't often asked to compare two numbers or calculations instead of just being told which one to use), so most of us have likely heard this presented incorrectly every single time it has come up, which means it takes a little bit of an adjustment to relearn.
Nothing in the first bullet ever tells you to base anything off of the Beast's Proficiency Bonus.
Yes, I know. What I was getting at is that the one and only proficiency bonus that's relevant during wild shape is the beast's, not the druid's as you had claimed in the previous post. The druid's prof bonus gets replaced by the beast's, so if we're not talking about the druid's skill or save proficiencies there's nothing to recalculate.
So a 20th level Druid which wild shapes into a wolf has a +4 stealth bonus, and a wisdom save that is their wis modifier+2? that is REALLY your position? Because if all you have after wild shaping is the wolf’s proficiency bonus, that’s what they’ve got, right? That is incorrect, very clearly, from reading bullet 1.
The subject seems to have shifted slightly since the original post was answered 27 comments ago...
You never use the druid's proficiency bonus to calculate a skill proficiency gained by the wild shape, but you do use the wild shape's adjusted stats when calculating skill proficiencies from both beast and druid.
Let's use the clawfoot raptor again. We'll also use a level 5 druid with 18 WIS and only stealth proficiency. The resulting wildshape has 17 STR, 17 DEX, and 18 WIS with a +5 athletics, +6 stealth, and a +8 perception.
Here is an excerpt from MM about monster Skill bonuses:
A skill bonus is the sum of a monster’s relevant ability modifier and its proficiency bonus, which is determined by the monster’s challenge rating (as shown in the Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating table). Other modifiers might apply. For instance, a monster might have a larger-than-expected bonus (usually double its proficiency bonus) to account for its heightened expertise.
If you guys would just stop trying to jump to your end conclusion, and start reading the actual text of that first bullet point word by word, line by line, you are left with one of two possibilities. There is no middle ground, there is no third option, the wildshaped druid has a list of proficiencies and the bonuses of those proficiencies is either based on A) his own normal proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form) or B) the beast's proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form). "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature." It doesn't say anything about calculating wild shape proficiencies differently from your normal proficiencies, all of your proficiencies are just proficiencies, period. So make your choice, A or B. Either a 20th level druid wildshaped into a wolf drops all of his proficient saves and skills to a +2 proficiency, or that druid uses +6 for all of his proficient saves and skills. No middle ground.
Wildshape doesn't say "You retain all of your skill and saving throw bonuses, in additiona to gaining those of the creature." That might be something to pin your position on. But it doesn't say that. It doesn't say ANYTHING that supports this frankly ludicrous "one body two proficiency bonus" theory, and it seems to just be force of repetition supporting you all taking that position, because nothing in the wildshape entry says you don't calculate your attribute checks as normal. Nothing. Zilch.
I'm sorry, I'm losing my cool... I just don't see any textual basis for the extreme position you guys are taking that there's somehow an unwritten implied rule hidden in that bulletpoint which justifies disregarding the entirety of Chapter 7????
If you guys would just stop trying to jump to your end conclusion, and start reading the actual text of that first bullet point word by word, line by line, you are left with one of two possibilities. There is no middle ground, there is no third option, the wildshaped druid has a list of proficiencies and the bonuses of those proficiencies is either based on A) his own normal proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form) or B) the beast's proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form). "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature." It doesn't say anything about calculating wild shape proficiencies differently from your normal proficiencies, all of your proficiencies are just proficiencies, period. So make your choice, A or B. Either a 20th level druid wildshaped into a wolf drops all of his proficient saves and skills to a +2 proficiency, or that druid uses +6 for all of his proficient saves and skills. No middle ground.
Wildshape doesn't say "You retain all of your skill and saving throw bonuses, in additiona to gaining those of the creature." That might be something to pin your position on. But it doesn't say that. It doesn't say ANYTHING that supports this frankly ludicrous "one body two proficiency bonus" theory, and it seems to just be force of repetition supporting you all taking that position, because nothing in the wildshape entry says you don't calculate your attribute checks as normal. Nothing. Zilch.
I'm sorry, I'm losing my cool... I just don't see any textual basis for the extreme position you guys are taking that there's somehow an unwritten implied rule hidden in that bulletpoint which justifies disregarding the entirety of Chapter 7????
That's reasonable. It makes the "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours," part not do anything if using the same bonuses and abilities either way, but at least it is simple.
Good. You even asked for it. Your interpretation of that first bullet point is wrong. "Proficiencies" in the third sentence directly refers to the proficiencies from either sentence 1 or sentence 2.
In English, sometimes authors will eliminate modifiers from modified nouns when referring directly back to them in subsequent sentences in the same paragraph. Sentence two specifically calls out that the proficiencies described are "skill and saving throw proficiencies."
In English, foreknowledge of text at the bottom of the page by sentences at the top is not required. If an author wants you to know that something at the top of the page refers to something at the bottom, they let you know. The only proficiencies that sentence 3 could refer to are the ones that we know about, not the ones that we haven't learned that we've gained.
So, as of the end of the text in that first bullet point, we have two groups of proficiencies, "skill and saving throws" and "the rest." "The rest" come from the beast.
So the next question is how do we get bonuses for those proficiencies? For the beast? They come from the static stat block. For us? Well, I'm still not sure on this, but we only re-calculate the ones we gain, not the beasts. Apparently the intention is that we use our new ability scores ("game statistics replaced...") and our proficiency modifier (that came along as part of bullet point 4). So, we only ever recalculate our stats (including those that it says we gain), not the beasts. What does that mean? It means that anything else in the beast's stat block that is not a skill or saving throw should not be recalculated. Good, because the rules don't tell us how we would anyway.
Obviously this is not clear, and of course I'm writing from a perspective of knowing RAI and being capable of accepting it. I'm also writing from the perspective that the to hit and DCs of creatures do increase with CR, so the increase in each as leveling occurs is already accounted for by your improving wildshapes.
So to summarize, you recalculate all of your proficiencies with your new (physical) stats. You gain the beast skill and saving throw proficiencies, and calculate those with your proficiency bonus and your new stats. Any other beast proficiencies aren’t recalculated because you haven’t “gained” them.
This is a possible reading of what is on the page and is what DDB does. The recalculation occurs only for things that yougain as part of the text, not things of the beasts that you use due to becoming that beast. A minor distinction which is probably lost on the less subtle readers.
Ok. Calculating half of your skills using your stats + a proficiency modifier you (apparently) no longer have is not provided for in the text of wild shape. Calculating only some of your skills and saves while leaving others set at a prior value which is no longer supported by your current stats is not provided for. Treating the beast proficiencies in any way differently than the druids proficiencies is not provided for in the text. Practically NOTHING you are describing is in the text
So ok, our disconnect is that I am talking about the rules as written, and you are responding with the house rules you play with to reconcile with some RAI that you believe is inconsistent with that RAW. It doesn’t matter how many times I ask you to explain how you reconcile your view with the text, because you don’t NEED the text, you’re filling in blanks with your own home brew.
I understand now, you’re not actually attempting to engage with the discussion about the Wild Shape rules as written. Thank you for clearing that up, no need to stretch this thread on engaging with your home brew any further.
I mean it certainly tells you to use the stats of the beast sometimes and yours sometimes in no un-simple terms. Your "no two proficiency bonuses" malarkey completely ignores that, so you can just stop. You can also stop saying that your interpretation is RAW, when it is clearly an interpretation and at that one from someone with a history of having interpretations at odds with RAW, RAI, SAC, and a large portion of the community.
You don't have a seperate Skill Proficiency Bonus, Save Proficiency Bonus, Attack Proficiency Bonus, Save DC Proficiency Bonus, etc. You have one proficiency bonus which applies to one or more things that you are proficient in. There are no rules that control what it would look like for a single character/creature to have more than one Proficiency Bonus value, which is a near-certain argument against that being the case.
The first bullet point of Wildshape does not say you can use your PB or the monster's PB for overlapping skills, that is a very imprecise and inaccurate reading. It says:
Nothing in the first bullet ever tells you to base anything off of the Beast's Proficiency Bonus. You are only ever given the opportunity to use its total skill bonus value, not the creature's proficiency bonus. There is no invitation to ever open the door to this bizarre "one creature two Proficiency Bonus values" nonsense, it just simply doesn't appear in the Wild Shape rules anywhere.
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There are two sources for proficiency in wildshape: the druid or the beast. Proficiency bonuses for the beast come from the stat block (that's what "use the creature’s bonus" means). Your bonuses come from your new ability scores (after transforming) and your proficiency bonus (this is how DDB calculates skills, and I have been convinced it is a legitimate reading). If you are not proficient in something but the beast is, your only option is to use the beast's bonus. That much seems pretty obvious from RAW.
That is quite explicitly not how the first bullet point works. You gain your beast's skill proficiencies in skills you didn't already have and re-calculate them, you do not just use the beast's bonus.
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That is completely backwards. You transform into a beast ("Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast") thereby gaining its proficiences ("...in addition to gaining those of the creature")and you retain your proficiencies ("You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies").That part doesn't matter. Bullet point 1 does not tell you to recalculate anything for the beast. Stop saying that or point to any text that indicates you are correct.Okay. Lets say that I'm a multiclass Druid with 16 Wis but no proficiency in Wisdom saves (I started out Fighter or something). I wildshape into a Spider King, which has a Wisdom Save of +2 based on its 11 Wisdom in its stat block. I am granted the Spider King's WIS save proficiency, and recalculate it using my own Wisdom that I brought with me, to now have a Wisdom save of [my proficiency bonus]+3. I carry with me my Strength save proficiency, which the Spider didn't have, and recalculate that too using the Spider's Strength which I've replaced for my own, to now have a Strength save of [my proficiency bonus]+2. Oh did I mention I also have the Tough feat, so I recalculate the Spider King's 44 hit points to add +2 per each of my class levels. Hey I also have a level of Barbarian and would like to recalculate my Spider AC, totally ok to do that too. When I'm raging, I'd also like to recalculate the damage die of my Spider's Bite Attack (now we're getting on shaky ground, it doesn't seem to be Strength-based, or see Sigred's post it may not be based on anything at all, but you get my drift).
Recalculating the Beast's numbers is something that you must do when Wildshaped. I don't see anything in the Wild Shape description that would allow you to only recalculate some of the things to which your proficiency bonus applies, but not others.
But that said, Sigred made the best point so far: proficiency bonuses may not be a part of the printed special attacks and abilities in a monster's stat block or their save DCs, and also becoming wildshaped does not grant you proficiency with natural weapons (arguable whether a creature always has proficiency with the attacks granted by its form in the same way that a creature always has proficiency with its own unarmed strikes, I won't say that that's a given). IF Proficiency Bonus value is retained as a feature (and I think its quite clear that it is, else bullet one of Wild Shape goes off the rails), then Sigred's are the only two good arguments I've heard yet against re-calculating the attack entries for your form.
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What does this sentence mean, then?
My understanding of the way it works is:
As druids are not proficient with 'natural weapons', any natural weapon attacks use the beast's attack bonus. A feat that grants proficiency in natural weapons is probably plausible. My original question was whether things like knockdown and grappling were assumed to be the beast having an inherent limited proficiency which can be overridden by the druid's skills.
It mean use the creature's total printed skill bonus (whatever total value is printed in the MM), not calculate a total using the Ability Check formula using a creature's proficiency bonus. The practical effect of this is to capture hidden racial bonuses (like those that the Giant Owl gets to perception), not to somehow ask a player to balance two different Proficiency Bonus values (again, there's really no rules about how one would even try to attempt that).
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Your bullet two is wrong though, whether or not you buy into everything else I'm saying. I won't keep banging the same drum, but please read that point for Wild Shape very very carefully, because it is more complicated than the rest.
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Um... there is actually no difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying. The printed bonus is in fact equal to the beast's proficiency bonus, possibly doubled. The giant owl does not have a hidden bonus, it has a doubled proficiency bonus (thus Wisdom+4 instead of Wisdom+2).
Panta, there is a difference. Here, let's use Clawfoot Raptor instead of Giant Owl, since a much lower level Druid can use a raptor instead of an 8th level druid for the owl. Level 4 Druid, 14 wisdom, no proficiency in Perception will be our baseline.
Now if instead our same Level 4 Druid, 14 wisdom, does have proficiency in Perception in his humanoid form, things look a little different:
This has nothing to do with my argument about your proficiency bonus being a class feature, this just straight up is exactly what that bullet point tells you to do when read closely. If you disagree with everything else I have written in this thread up to this point, this nevertheless is 100% true and how that feature works for skills and saves. This is probably the single most often mis-applied rule in 5E (we aren't often asked to compare two numbers or calculations instead of just being told which one to use), so most of us have likely heard this presented incorrectly every single time it has come up, which means it takes a little bit of an adjustment to relearn.
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Yes, I know. What I was getting at is that the one and only proficiency bonus that's relevant during wild shape is the beast's, not the druid's as you had claimed in the previous post. The druid's prof bonus gets replaced by the beast's, so if we're not talking about the druid's skill or save proficiencies there's nothing to recalculate.
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So a 20th level Druid which wild shapes into a wolf has a +4 stealth bonus, and a wisdom save that is their wis modifier+2? that is REALLY your position? Because if all you have after wild shaping is the wolf’s proficiency bonus, that’s what they’ve got, right? That is incorrect, very clearly, from reading bullet 1.
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The subject seems to have shifted slightly since the original post was answered 27 comments ago...
You never use the druid's proficiency bonus to calculate a skill proficiency gained by the wild shape, but you do use the wild shape's adjusted stats when calculating skill proficiencies from both beast and druid.
Let's use the clawfoot raptor again. We'll also use a level 5 druid with 18 WIS and only stealth proficiency. The resulting wildshape has 17 STR, 17 DEX, and 18 WIS with a +5 athletics, +6 stealth, and a +8 perception.
Here is an excerpt from MM about monster Skill bonuses:
If you guys would just stop trying to jump to your end conclusion, and start reading the actual text of that first bullet point word by word, line by line, you are left with one of two possibilities. There is no middle ground, there is no third option, the wildshaped druid has a list of proficiencies and the bonuses of those proficiencies is either based on A) his own normal proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form) or B) the beast's proficiency bonus value, which is used to calculate every one of his proficient skills and saves (which are all the skills and saves he had in humanoid form, + also any skills and saves of the beast form). "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature." It doesn't say anything about calculating wild shape proficiencies differently from your normal proficiencies, all of your proficiencies are just proficiencies, period. So make your choice, A or B. Either a 20th level druid wildshaped into a wolf drops all of his proficient saves and skills to a +2 proficiency, or that druid uses +6 for all of his proficient saves and skills. No middle ground.
Wildshape doesn't say "You retain all of your skill and saving throw bonuses, in additiona to gaining those of the creature." That might be something to pin your position on. But it doesn't say that. It doesn't say ANYTHING that supports this frankly ludicrous "one body two proficiency bonus" theory, and it seems to just be force of repetition supporting you all taking that position, because nothing in the wildshape entry says you don't calculate your attribute checks as normal. Nothing. Zilch.
I'm sorry, I'm losing my cool... I just don't see any textual basis for the extreme position you guys are taking that there's somehow an unwritten implied rule hidden in that bulletpoint which justifies disregarding the entirety of Chapter 7????
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That's reasonable. It makes the "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours," part not do anything if using the same bonuses and abilities either way, but at least it is simple.
Good. You even asked for it. Your interpretation of that first bullet point is wrong. "Proficiencies" in the third sentence directly refers to the proficiencies from either sentence 1 or sentence 2.
So, as of the end of the text in that first bullet point, we have two groups of proficiencies, "skill and saving throws" and "the rest." "The rest" come from the beast.
So the next question is how do we get bonuses for those proficiencies? For the beast? They come from the static stat block. For us? Well, I'm still not sure on this, but we only re-calculate the ones we gain, not the beasts. Apparently the intention is that we use our new ability scores ("game statistics replaced...") and our proficiency modifier (that came along as part of bullet point 4). So, we only ever recalculate our stats (including those that it says we gain), not the beasts. What does that mean? It means that anything else in the beast's stat block that is not a skill or saving throw should not be recalculated. Good, because the rules don't tell us how we would anyway.
Obviously this is not clear, and of course I'm writing from a perspective of knowing RAI and being capable of accepting it. I'm also writing from the perspective that the to hit and DCs of creatures do increase with CR, so the increase in each as leveling occurs is already accounted for by your improving wildshapes.
So to summarize, you recalculate all of your proficiencies with your new (physical) stats. You gain the beast skill and saving throw proficiencies, and calculate those with your proficiency bonus and your new stats. Any other beast proficiencies aren’t recalculated because you haven’t “gained” them.
This is a possible reading of what is on the page and is what DDB does. The recalculation occurs only for things that you gain as part of the text, not things of the beasts that you use due to becoming that beast. A minor distinction which is probably lost on the less subtle readers.
Ok. Calculating half of your skills using your stats + a proficiency modifier you (apparently) no longer have is not provided for in the text of wild shape. Calculating only some of your skills and saves while leaving others set at a prior value which is no longer supported by your current stats is not provided for. Treating the beast proficiencies in any way differently than the druids proficiencies is not provided for in the text. Practically NOTHING you are describing is in the text
So ok, our disconnect is that I am talking about the rules as written, and you are responding with the house rules you play with to reconcile with some RAI that you believe is inconsistent with that RAW. It doesn’t matter how many times I ask you to explain how you reconcile your view with the text, because you don’t NEED the text, you’re filling in blanks with your own home brew.
I understand now, you’re not actually attempting to engage with the discussion about the Wild Shape rules as written. Thank you for clearing that up, no need to stretch this thread on engaging with your home brew any further.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I mean it certainly tells you to use the stats of the beast sometimes and yours sometimes in no un-simple terms. Your "no two proficiency bonuses" malarkey completely ignores that, so you can just stop. You can also stop saying that your interpretation is RAW, when it is clearly an interpretation and at that one from someone with a history of having interpretations at odds with RAW, RAI, SAC, and a large portion of the community.