I believe that the Mithral Armor rules should be changed. I found that in the rules of mithral it says, “Mithral is a light, flexible metal. A mithral chain shirt or breastplate can be worn under normal clothes” this should affect the weight of the armor and at least let one add their dexterity bonus to the armor.
Though the "flexible metal" part has already been dealt with by removing the disadvantage on stealth checks.
For example changing the max Dex modifier on a Chain Shirt to 3.
Agree on weight, disagree on changing dexterity bonus. The Dex modifier tiers for light/medium/heavy armor are well codified and vastly simplify equipment management for characters in 5e when compared with earlier editions, and hitting the appropriate dex bonus to take advantage of the armor tier you plan to use is often something a character has plotted out from level 1. I don't disagree that receiving a Mithral Breastplate feels like a giant middle finger from the DM, but it would be easier recordkeeping for the player if the DM just said "mithral breastplate, treat it as a Breastplate +1" to resolve that problem instead of reworking the basic foundation of armor tiers and dexterity from the ground up.
Given that mithril is Uncommon while +1 armor is Rare, it's supposed to be not very impressive. As it is, mithril half-plate has the same combat stats as a +1 breastplate, mithril scale has the same stats as a +1 chain shirt, and mithril for breastplates or a chain shirt has a special concealable property. That seems adequate, though obviously some PCs will not find the concealable property valuable. I would be tempted to halve weight so mithril half-plate really is the same as a +1 breastplate (the difference in rarity is compensated for by the higher base price of the armor), but it doesn't need other benefits.
As an added thought, the lack of dexterity bonus for heavy armor is also that its overall design limits movement. You give up dodging and allow the armor to absorb/prevent the damage. This is especially true with plate mail.
I had a similar disappointment when I receive Elven Chain which says it may be treated as an armor that the player is proficient with even if the player is not proficient with medium armor. I would like for it to allow me to benefit from a dex with a bonus higher than +2, but the description makes it clear it is still medium armor. I do wear it under a properly tailored shirt to conceal the fact I am wearing any armor.
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If you want Armor +1, buy it. If you are a mage looking for armor, buy Elven Chain +1. If you are a Rogue looking for better armor that does not interfere with your Stealth, buy Mithral.
If you Mithral +1, buy that.
But there is no reason to remove the stuff you do not want just to get the stuff you do want.
I had a similar disappointment when I receive Elven Chain which says it may be treated as an armor that the player is proficient with even if the player is not proficient with medium armor. I would like for it to allow me to benefit from a dex with a bonus higher than +2, but the description makes it clear it is still medium armor. I do wear it under a properly tailored shirt to conceal the fact I am wearing any armor.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think I would have to take Moderately Armored Feat first, and then get Medium Armor Master Feat next. That's just too expensive to get +1 added to my AC.
You just can't have it all.
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And that's sorta the point. AC in 5e, particularly with respect to the tiers of armor & max Dex bonus, is highly-tuned from the ground up. The developers do not want players exceeding 17 AC from wearing any combination of standard armor & Dexterity, except for full plate. Medium armor has the potential to achieve AC parity (and overall superiority due to weight, stealth disadvantage, strength requirement, gold cost, availability, etc...) with full plate, but you have to invest for it. Tough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, if you consider "17" to be the standard end target AC, you can get there relatively easily from just about any sort of class without making any substantial stat or feat investment. A mage with 18 Dex, a rogue with 20 dex, a barbarian or ranger or hexblade with 14 dex, a fighter with a little bit of gold.... you're gonna get there, no problem. All of the archetypes have at least one way to go a little bit past that (spells that temporarily boost AC, feats that provide + flat AC or AC as a reaction based on wielding certain weapons, fighting styles that provide flat bonuses, shields that occupy a free hand), but it's very hard to scrape together more than a couple of these together on one character, so 20 is very much the "soft cap" for AC. Specialized builds and magic items can certainly exceed that cap, as can temporary spell enhancements, but if your character is landing anywhere between 17-20 AC by the second or third tier... that's it, you've arrived at the power curve that 5E expects from you.
...17-20 AC by the second or third tier... that's it, you've arrived at the power curve that 5E expects from you.
5e does not expect you to arrive at 17-20 AC at 2nd or 3rd level. My group uses standard point buy and my players chose their options from a role playing perspective.
So, by level 3, the elf Paladin has AC 18 (chain mail + shield), the Aasimar Sorcerer has AC 9 (robe + DEX 9), the Firbolg druid has AC 13 (hide armor + DEX 12), and the Human ranger has AC 15 (Studded leather + DEX 16).
This is in my opinion totally OK and in the range it should be.
Furthermore, Sigred talked about armor + DEX progression, not spells and other features.
The developers do not want players exceeding 17 AC from wearing any combination of standard armor & Dexterity, except for full plate.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
...17-20 AC by the second or third tier... that's it, you've arrived at the power curve that 5E expects from you.
5e does not expect you to arrive at 17-20 AC at 2nd or 3rd level. My group uses standard point buy and my players chose their options from a role playing perspective.
So, by level 3, the elf Paladin has AC 18 (chain mail + shield), the Aasimar Sorcerer has AC 9 (robe + DEX 9), the Firbolg druid has AC 13 (hide armor + DEX 12), and the Human ranger has AC 15 (Studded leather + DEX 16).
This is in my opinion totally OK and in the range it should be.
Furthermore, Sigred talked about armor + DEX progression, not spells and other features.
He said second or third tier, not level. Level wise that’s roughly levels 5-16
...17-20 AC by the second or third tier... that's it, you've arrived at the power curve that 5E expects from you.
5e does not expect you to arrive at 17-20 AC at 2nd or 3rd level.
Tier is not level. Second tier is level 5-10, third tier is level 11-16. Which still doesn't mean the original statement is correct, while you can expect AC 17+ by level 4 or so for Strength classes that use heavy armor (splint) and by level 8 or so for Dexterify classes (Studded, Dex 20) there's a decent chance of lower AC from strength classes that don't use heavy armor (not everyone has Dex 14) and spellcasters.
Let's try to keep things contained to the applicable scope, yeah? The question at hand is not about AC with a specific level, tier of play, spells, features, etc. It is about standard armor and max Dexterity bonus.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Let's try to keep things contained to the applicable scope, yeah? The question at hand is not about AC with a specific level, tier of play, spells, features, etc. It is about standard armor and max Dexterity bonus.
This is a thread originally about mithral armor, that morphed into a thread about elven chain. Neither of those things is standard armor.
I believe that the Mithral Armor rules should be changed. I found that in the rules of mithral it says, “Mithral is a light, flexible metal. A mithral chain shirt or breastplate can be worn under normal clothes” this should affect the weight of the armor and at least let one add their dexterity bonus to the armor.
Though the "flexible metal" part has already been dealt with by removing the disadvantage on stealth checks.
For example changing the max Dex modifier on a Chain Shirt to 3.
Please reply to help improve this thread.
Agree on weight, disagree on changing dexterity bonus. The Dex modifier tiers for light/medium/heavy armor are well codified and vastly simplify equipment management for characters in 5e when compared with earlier editions, and hitting the appropriate dex bonus to take advantage of the armor tier you plan to use is often something a character has plotted out from level 1. I don't disagree that receiving a Mithral Breastplate feels like a giant middle finger from the DM, but it would be easier recordkeeping for the player if the DM just said "mithral breastplate, treat it as a Breastplate +1" to resolve that problem instead of reworking the basic foundation of armor tiers and dexterity from the ground up.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
With the party I have, that is probably going to happen straight out of the gate.
Thanks for the advice.
Given that mithril is Uncommon while +1 armor is Rare, it's supposed to be not very impressive. As it is, mithril half-plate has the same combat stats as a +1 breastplate, mithril scale has the same stats as a +1 chain shirt, and mithril for breastplates or a chain shirt has a special concealable property. That seems adequate, though obviously some PCs will not find the concealable property valuable. I would be tempted to halve weight so mithril half-plate really is the same as a +1 breastplate (the difference in rarity is compensated for by the higher base price of the armor), but it doesn't need other benefits.
Your probably right any more benefits will make it too powerful for an uncommon armor...
As an added thought, the lack of dexterity bonus for heavy armor is also that its overall design limits movement. You give up dodging and allow the armor to absorb/prevent the damage. This is especially true with plate mail.
I had a similar disappointment when I receive Elven Chain which says it may be treated as an armor that the player is proficient with even if the player is not proficient with medium armor. I would like for it to allow me to benefit from a dex with a bonus higher than +2, but the description makes it clear it is still medium armor. I do wear it under a properly tailored shirt to conceal the fact I am wearing any armor.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
If you want Armor +1, buy it. If you are a mage looking for armor, buy Elven Chain +1. If you are a Rogue looking for better armor that does not interfere with your Stealth, buy Mithral.
If you Mithral +1, buy that.
But there is no reason to remove the stuff you do not want just to get the stuff you do want.
Then take the Medium Armor Master feat.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sigred,
I think I would have to take Moderately Armored Feat first, and then get Medium Armor Master Feat next. That's just too expensive to get +1 added to my AC.
You just can't have it all.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
And that's sorta the point. AC in 5e, particularly with respect to the tiers of armor & max Dex bonus, is highly-tuned from the ground up. The developers do not want players exceeding 17 AC from wearing any combination of standard armor & Dexterity, except for full plate. Medium armor has the potential to achieve AC parity (and overall superiority due to weight, stealth disadvantage, strength requirement, gold cost, availability, etc...) with full plate, but you have to invest for it. Tough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, if you consider "17" to be the standard end target AC, you can get there relatively easily from just about any sort of class without making any substantial stat or feat investment. A mage with 18 Dex, a rogue with 20 dex, a barbarian or ranger or hexblade with 14 dex, a fighter with a little bit of gold.... you're gonna get there, no problem. All of the archetypes have at least one way to go a little bit past that (spells that temporarily boost AC, feats that provide + flat AC or AC as a reaction based on wielding certain weapons, fighting styles that provide flat bonuses, shields that occupy a free hand), but it's very hard to scrape together more than a couple of these together on one character, so 20 is very much the "soft cap" for AC. Specialized builds and magic items can certainly exceed that cap, as can temporary spell enhancements, but if your character is landing anywhere between 17-20 AC by the second or third tier... that's it, you've arrived at the power curve that 5E expects from you.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
5e does not expect you to arrive at 17-20 AC at 2nd or 3rd level. My group uses standard point buy and my players chose their options from a role playing perspective.
So, by level 3, the elf Paladin has AC 18 (chain mail + shield), the Aasimar Sorcerer has AC 9 (robe + DEX 9), the Firbolg druid has AC 13 (hide armor + DEX 12), and the Human ranger has AC 15 (Studded leather + DEX 16).
This is in my opinion totally OK and in the range it should be.
Furthermore, Sigred talked about armor + DEX progression, not spells and other features.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
He said second or third tier, not level. Level wise that’s roughly levels 5-16
Tier is not level. Second tier is level 5-10, third tier is level 11-16. Which still doesn't mean the original statement is correct, while you can expect AC 17+ by level 4 or so for Strength classes that use heavy armor (splint) and by level 8 or so for Dexterify classes (Studded, Dex 20) there's a decent chance of lower AC from strength classes that don't use heavy armor (not everyone has Dex 14) and spellcasters.
Let's try to keep things contained to the applicable scope, yeah? The question at hand is not about AC with a specific level, tier of play, spells, features, etc. It is about standard armor and max Dexterity bonus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
This is a thread originally about mithral armor, that morphed into a thread about elven chain. Neither of those things is standard armor.
I brought up Elven Chain because I thought it was made from mithral. Is this not the case?
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Elven Chain is silent on how it's made. It is not mechanically similar to mithral armor.