Is there Mithral Chain or Mithral Chain Shirt armor?
I assumed Elven chain was made from Mithral but in a fine weave manner to make it less bulky to wear, which is why it allows folks not proficient with medium armor to be considered proficient with Elven Chain.
But like you said, the rules are not explicit on what Elven Chain is made from.
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Is there Mithral Chain or Mithral Chain Shirt armor?
It's allowed by the rules for mithral armor, but its effect is to not penalize stealth checks (mithral chain) or to be concealable under clothes (mithral chain shirt), neither of which is particularly related to what elven chain does.
A "normal" Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock has access to Mage Armor, so their starting AC is somewhere between 13 and 16, though conventional stat distribution would assume your Dex is either your secondary or tertiary stat. Even assuming that your first eight levels go towards maximizing your casting attribute, between levels 12-17 you should be more than capable of reaching 18 Dexterity for 17 AC without making any significant sacrifices. You may very well choose to have less than that, focusing on Constitution to shore up your hit points and concentration checks instead of Dex for AC... but if that's the case, and your landing in the 14-16 AC range, it's a choice you're making to have worse-than-average AC compared to your peers. Conversely, if you emphasize Dexterity over maxing your casting stat, or if you have features that bump your AC up further beyond what is typical for your class (Warforged, Bladesinger, etc), and end up 18-20, you have better than average AC for your peers. If you manage to truly excel and break 21, you have best-in-class AC, and have probably made signifigant sacrifices to get there.
A "normal" Rogue or Bard has access to Light Armor, so their starting AC is somewhere between 12 and and 15, though conventional stat distribution would assume your Dex is either your primary or secondary stat. If you're a Rogue it is most likely starting at 15, and by level 8, you've likely maxed Dex and have 17 AC. If you're a Bard, it is most likely 14 or 15 at first, and may not go any higher until levels 12-17 depending on subclass, but after that you're more than capable of reaching 20 Dex for 17 AC without making signifigant sacrifices. You might choose to have less than that, focusing on Constitution for HP and concentration checks, or taking feats like Inspiring Leader... but if that's the case, and you're landing in the 14-16 range, it's a choice you're making to have worse-than-average AC compared to your peers. Had you emphasized Dex over Charisma, or with racial or feat features that bump it up beyond what is typical for your class (Warforged, Dual Wielder, etc.) and end up at 18-20, you have better than average AC than your peers. Again, breaking 21 as a Bard or a Rogue would be exceptional, and indicate some real specialization and sacrifices to get there.
A "normal" Ranger, Hexblade, Barbarian, and Cleric has access to Medium Armor and Shields, so their starting AC is somewhere between 13-15 without a shield, or 15-17 with a shield. Dexterity might be a dump stat for the Hexblade or Cleric, but is likely to be either a primary or secondary stat for the ranger or barbarian. Its primarily gold that increases AC with medium armor, not stat bumps, but by the time you can afford Half Plate around level 8 any or all of these classes could easily be sitting at 17 AC either as a result of Dex being a class attribute for them (ranger, barbarian), or by wielding a shield (hexblade, cleric). To go beyond 17 AC requires both an investment in dex and giving up a hand to a shield, so that's one sort of "sacrifice" a character might make to go up to 18-19 AC. Investing in Medium Armor Master and dex is another sort of Sacrifice to go up to 18, and using a shield would take you up to 20. Other features or feats may help go even further.... and It's certainly getting easier to bump up to 20 and even a little beyond than it was for casters or light armor wearers, but still we can see that a "normal" character in these classes should be expecting to land right around 17 AC, and would have to either be doing a weird build to go less than that, or making some sacrifices to go over it.
A "normal" fighter, paladin, or cleric of certain domains have access to Heavy Armor and Shields, so their starting AC is somewhere around 16 without a shield or 18 with one. Again, its gold that increases AC with heavy armor, not stat bumps, so by the time you're level 8 or so you might expect to have 18 AC without or 20 with. Choosing certain fighting styles, races, or feats might pick you up another 1-3 points, to end up somewhere in the 20-22 range, but again you're making sacrifices by forgoing other options or playstyles to get there. A "normal" fighter in plate is 18 or 20 AC, as is a "normal" paladin. These classes break the 17 AC assumption! But, they really aren't able to specialize in armor to go exceptionally far past that 20-22ish soft cap that everyone else can strive for as well.
TLDR, if you ask me "what AC should you have at level 12?," it doesn't really matter what class you are, the answer is going to be the same:
16 or under, you have poor AC
17 or 18, you have decent AC
19 or 20, you have good AC
Over 21, you have very good AC
Okay, was this all off topic? Not really, the point being.... "I'm X class and Mithral Armor doesn't offer me anything! I should get a higher Dex bonus, or free proficiency, or whatever!" is a dangerous slippery slope, because it risks letting magic or light armor classes overtake medium and heavy armor classes, or overshooting the low-20's soft cap. There is no class out there that can't hit low 20's if they prioritize it, nor any class which assumes low 20's without giving up alternative build choices (though Fighters and Paladins do do it easier than other classes). Saying "aesthetically it's Mithral Armor, mechanically its Armor +1" is fine, because Armor +1 already plays by all the same rules and assumptions about armor tiers and what stats and feats they allow that regular armor does. But Medium Armor with a default +3 Dex bonus? Heavy Armor with a dex bonus? Medium Armor that counts as Light Armor for proficiency? All of that starts to send us off the rails.
A "normal" Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock has access to Mage Armor, so their starting AC is somewhere between 13 and 16, though conventional stat distribution would assume your Dex is either your secondary or tertiary stat. Even assuming that your first eight levels go towards maximizing your casting attribute, between levels 12-17 you should be more than capable of reaching 18 Dexterity for 17 AC without making any significant sacrifices.
The significant sacrifice is two ASIs (at 12 and 16) that could have gone into something that gives you more net value than +4 Dex (such as +4 Con).
It's not clear to me that +4 Con/+2-40 HP/+2 Con Saves has more utility for a caster than +4 Dex/+2 AC/+2 Ref saves. 10% more likely to pass a con save, or 10% less likely to need to make one in the first place? It's a trade off, is my point, and a plain-jane caster build is more than capable of hitting 18 Dex without crying about it.
It's not clear to me that +4 Con/+2-40 HP/+2 Con Saves has more utility for a caster than +4 Dex/+2 AC/+2 Ref saves. 10% more likely to pass a con save, or 10% less likely to need to make one in the first place? It's a trade off, is my point, and a plain-jane caster build is more than capable of hitting 18 Dex without crying about it.
At level 16, a 14 Con wizard has 98 hit points, a 16 Con wizard has 130. Going from a 15 AC to a 17 AC is only equivalent for durability against a creature with an attack bonus of 2 (40% to hit the lower ac for eHP 130/0.4 = 325, 20% to hit the higher ac for EHP 98/0.3 = 327, but crits actually make the lower ac slightly better). Level 16 characters don't spend a lot of time dealing with stuff with attack bonuses of 2, and that's ignoring damage you save against, which generally devalues dex even when it's a dex save, because of DC escalation and save for half (an adult red dragon has expected breath damage of 60 vs Dex save +2, 57 against Dex save +4).
Not sure I understand your dragon math there. If a dragon is breathing on you for 63 damage, saving (dexterity save) avoids 32 damage, which is almost as many extra hit points as you would have picked up with +4 CON. The HP you save there (and every other time you’re shot at or subjected to a Dex save over the day with a +2 AC and Dex Save advantage) adds up to MUCH more effective HP value than con provides.
And to use that dragon as an example, if he only misses an AC 15 wizard with a roll of 1 on a +14 bite, he misses an AC 17 wizard on a 1, 2, or 3. That’s two additional faces of the d20 going your way, 10% of the d20 possibilities.
Con on casters is largely JUST about concentration saves. Not all casters have a concentration spell up all the time, and avoiding being hit (and/or saving for less damage for a lower concentration DC) is an equally valid way to preserve concentration.
Not sure I understand your dragon math there. If a dragon is breathing on you for 63 damage, saving (dexterity save) avoids 32 damage, which is almost as many extra hit points as you would have picked up with +4 CON.
With a +2 save vs DC 21, you have a 10% chance of saving, and thus the average is 63 - (0.1 * 32) = 60. With a +4 save, you have a 20% chance of saving, and thus the average is 63 - (0.2*32) = 57.
And to use that dragon as an example, if he only misses an AC 15 wizard with a roll of 1 on a +14 bite, he misses an AC 17 wizard on a 1, 2, or 3. That’s two additional faces of the d20 going your way, 10% of the d20 possibilities.
Con on casters is largely JUST about concentration saves. Not all casters have a concentration spell up all the time, and avoiding being hit (and/or saving for less damage for a lower concentration DC) is an equally valid way to preserve concentration.
Con on casters is also about not just outright dying. Focus fire a caster in a Hard to Deadly fight involving brute type monsters and it's totally possible to die in one round, and against most threats ac 15/130 hp is better chances than ac 17/98 hp.
What you’ve done there is an excellent demonstration of why math can’t be trusted. +2 vs +4 dexterity save is a 100% increase in your save, a 10% greater in your chance to save for half damage when you roll a d20, or a... 5% reduction in average damage vs. that specific enemy?
Common sense and experience dictates that AC is more meaningful to a combat than HP total. 17 AC is meaningfully better than 15 AC every time an enemy attacks you. 140 HP is only better than 100 HP after you’ve taken 100 HP of damage.
Let's try to keep things contained to the applicable scope, yeah? The question at hand is not about AC with a specific level, tier of play, spells, features, etc. It is about standard armor and max Dexterity bonus.
This is a thread originally about mithral armor, that morphed into a thread about elven chain. Neither of those things is standard armor.
The thread is about armor variants, yes, but the underlying mechanics are rooted in the balance of standard armor & max dex bonus. Both of our statements are specifically correct. :P
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
i honestly think they should have made them more rare and improved upon the effects they are suppose to be "special" materials after all mithril and adamantine in previous editions where rare and expensive not uncommon and while i do wish they had made adamantine better based on the cost of it (adding immunities to crits was a really good step that i wish the older editions also had but i do wish it had also kept its generic physical damage reduction of 3 for heavy 2 for medium and 1 for light even thought its not much it can add up especially if you are fighting lots of lower level enemies) i feel like the current mithril is just ikky it lost what it was good for making it so people could benefit more from dex in heavier armor especially given how expensive getting armor from either of the materials is with how messed up the economy is in 5e 1500 for full plate is fine and all but when you only get that amount of money at somewhere between 6th and 8th level when a heavy armor wearer should be able to obtain it at 2nd level is kind of an oof and shows how borked up the money system is plus unlike the previous systems where the effects given for the armor materials was an actual contest between them depending on build of course this edition kinda makes it a non contest the immunity to crits is hands down the winner every time why would anyone even want mithril at this point
I agree with the original poster, the character wearing the mitheral plate is going to be a party tank.when you have rogues, wizards able to use their Dex bonus and almost have the same AC as the fighter who is surrounded every fight while the rest of the party avoids being attacked because the fighter is taking all blows for them, a fighter who does eventually find mitheral should have the little bonus from their Dex to protect themselves. This will just have players avoiding being a tank, and parties that get overrun because nobody is up front.
When a tank has 6 enemies surrounding them, law of averages even with an AC of 20, one attack will get through every turn.
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Is there Mithral Chain or Mithral Chain Shirt armor?
I assumed Elven chain was made from Mithral but in a fine weave manner to make it less bulky to wear, which is why it allows folks not proficient with medium armor to be considered proficient with Elven Chain.
But like you said, the rules are not explicit on what Elven Chain is made from.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
It's allowed by the rules for mithral armor, but its effect is to not penalize stealth checks (mithral chain) or to be concealable under clothes (mithral chain shirt), neither of which is particularly related to what elven chain does.
A "normal" Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock has access to Mage Armor, so their starting AC is somewhere between 13 and 16, though conventional stat distribution would assume your Dex is either your secondary or tertiary stat. Even assuming that your first eight levels go towards maximizing your casting attribute, between levels 12-17 you should be more than capable of reaching 18 Dexterity for 17 AC without making any significant sacrifices. You may very well choose to have less than that, focusing on Constitution to shore up your hit points and concentration checks instead of Dex for AC... but if that's the case, and your landing in the 14-16 AC range, it's a choice you're making to have worse-than-average AC compared to your peers. Conversely, if you emphasize Dexterity over maxing your casting stat, or if you have features that bump your AC up further beyond what is typical for your class (Warforged, Bladesinger, etc), and end up 18-20, you have better than average AC for your peers. If you manage to truly excel and break 21, you have best-in-class AC, and have probably made signifigant sacrifices to get there.
A "normal" Rogue or Bard has access to Light Armor, so their starting AC is somewhere between 12 and and 15, though conventional stat distribution would assume your Dex is either your primary or secondary stat. If you're a Rogue it is most likely starting at 15, and by level 8, you've likely maxed Dex and have 17 AC. If you're a Bard, it is most likely 14 or 15 at first, and may not go any higher until levels 12-17 depending on subclass, but after that you're more than capable of reaching 20 Dex for 17 AC without making signifigant sacrifices. You might choose to have less than that, focusing on Constitution for HP and concentration checks, or taking feats like Inspiring Leader... but if that's the case, and you're landing in the 14-16 range, it's a choice you're making to have worse-than-average AC compared to your peers. Had you emphasized Dex over Charisma, or with racial or feat features that bump it up beyond what is typical for your class (Warforged, Dual Wielder, etc.) and end up at 18-20, you have better than average AC than your peers. Again, breaking 21 as a Bard or a Rogue would be exceptional, and indicate some real specialization and sacrifices to get there.
A "normal" Ranger, Hexblade, Barbarian, and Cleric has access to Medium Armor and Shields, so their starting AC is somewhere between 13-15 without a shield, or 15-17 with a shield. Dexterity might be a dump stat for the Hexblade or Cleric, but is likely to be either a primary or secondary stat for the ranger or barbarian. Its primarily gold that increases AC with medium armor, not stat bumps, but by the time you can afford Half Plate around level 8 any or all of these classes could easily be sitting at 17 AC either as a result of Dex being a class attribute for them (ranger, barbarian), or by wielding a shield (hexblade, cleric). To go beyond 17 AC requires both an investment in dex and giving up a hand to a shield, so that's one sort of "sacrifice" a character might make to go up to 18-19 AC. Investing in Medium Armor Master and dex is another sort of Sacrifice to go up to 18, and using a shield would take you up to 20. Other features or feats may help go even further.... and It's certainly getting easier to bump up to 20 and even a little beyond than it was for casters or light armor wearers, but still we can see that a "normal" character in these classes should be expecting to land right around 17 AC, and would have to either be doing a weird build to go less than that, or making some sacrifices to go over it.
A "normal" fighter, paladin, or cleric of certain domains have access to Heavy Armor and Shields, so their starting AC is somewhere around 16 without a shield or 18 with one. Again, its gold that increases AC with heavy armor, not stat bumps, so by the time you're level 8 or so you might expect to have 18 AC without or 20 with. Choosing certain fighting styles, races, or feats might pick you up another 1-3 points, to end up somewhere in the 20-22 range, but again you're making sacrifices by forgoing other options or playstyles to get there. A "normal" fighter in plate is 18 or 20 AC, as is a "normal" paladin. These classes break the 17 AC assumption! But, they really aren't able to specialize in armor to go exceptionally far past that 20-22ish soft cap that everyone else can strive for as well.
TLDR, if you ask me "what AC should you have at level 12?," it doesn't really matter what class you are, the answer is going to be the same:
Okay, was this all off topic? Not really, the point being.... "I'm X class and Mithral Armor doesn't offer me anything! I should get a higher Dex bonus, or free proficiency, or whatever!" is a dangerous slippery slope, because it risks letting magic or light armor classes overtake medium and heavy armor classes, or overshooting the low-20's soft cap. There is no class out there that can't hit low 20's if they prioritize it, nor any class which assumes low 20's without giving up alternative build choices (though Fighters and Paladins do do it easier than other classes). Saying "aesthetically it's Mithral Armor, mechanically its Armor +1" is fine, because Armor +1 already plays by all the same rules and assumptions about armor tiers and what stats and feats they allow that regular armor does. But Medium Armor with a default +3 Dex bonus? Heavy Armor with a dex bonus? Medium Armor that counts as Light Armor for proficiency? All of that starts to send us off the rails.
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The significant sacrifice is two ASIs (at 12 and 16) that could have gone into something that gives you more net value than +4 Dex (such as +4 Con).
It's not clear to me that +4 Con/+2-40 HP/+2 Con Saves has more utility for a caster than +4 Dex/+2 AC/+2 Ref saves. 10% more likely to pass a con save, or 10% less likely to need to make one in the first place? It's a trade off, is my point, and a plain-jane caster build is more than capable of hitting 18 Dex without crying about it.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
At level 16, a 14 Con wizard has 98 hit points, a 16 Con wizard has 130. Going from a 15 AC to a 17 AC is only equivalent for durability against a creature with an attack bonus of 2 (40% to hit the lower ac for eHP 130/0.4 = 325, 20% to hit the higher ac for EHP 98/0.3 = 327, but crits actually make the lower ac slightly better). Level 16 characters don't spend a lot of time dealing with stuff with attack bonuses of 2, and that's ignoring damage you save against, which generally devalues dex even when it's a dex save, because of DC escalation and save for half (an adult red dragon has expected breath damage of 60 vs Dex save +2, 57 against Dex save +4).
Not sure I understand your dragon math there. If a dragon is breathing on you for 63 damage, saving (dexterity save) avoids 32 damage, which is almost as many extra hit points as you would have picked up with +4 CON. The HP you save there (and every other time you’re shot at or subjected to a Dex save over the day with a +2 AC and Dex Save advantage) adds up to MUCH more effective HP value than con provides.
And to use that dragon as an example, if he only misses an AC 15 wizard with a roll of 1 on a +14 bite, he misses an AC 17 wizard on a 1, 2, or 3. That’s two additional faces of the d20 going your way, 10% of the d20 possibilities.
Con on casters is largely JUST about concentration saves. Not all casters have a concentration spell up all the time, and avoiding being hit (and/or saving for less damage for a lower concentration DC) is an equally valid way to preserve concentration.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
With a +2 save vs DC 21, you have a 10% chance of saving, and thus the average is 63 - (0.1 * 32) = 60. With a +4 save, you have a 20% chance of saving, and thus the average is 63 - (0.2*32) = 57.
Con on casters is also about not just outright dying. Focus fire a caster in a Hard to Deadly fight involving brute type monsters and it's totally possible to die in one round, and against most threats ac 15/130 hp is better chances than ac 17/98 hp.
What you’ve done there is an excellent demonstration of why math can’t be trusted. +2 vs +4 dexterity save is a 100% increase in your save, a 10% greater in your chance to save for half damage when you roll a d20, or a... 5% reduction in average damage vs. that specific enemy?
Common sense and experience dictates that AC is more meaningful to a combat than HP total. 17 AC is meaningfully better than 15 AC every time an enemy attacks you. 140 HP is only better than 100 HP after you’ve taken 100 HP of damage.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The thread is about armor variants, yes, but the underlying mechanics are rooted in the balance of standard armor & max dex bonus. Both of our statements are specifically correct. :P
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
i honestly think they should have made them more rare and improved upon the effects they are suppose to be "special" materials after all mithril and adamantine in previous editions where rare and expensive not uncommon and while i do wish they had made adamantine better based on the cost of it (adding immunities to crits was a really good step that i wish the older editions also had but i do wish it had also kept its generic physical damage reduction of 3 for heavy 2 for medium and 1 for light even thought its not much it can add up especially if you are fighting lots of lower level enemies) i feel like the current mithril is just ikky it lost what it was good for making it so people could benefit more from dex in heavier armor especially given how expensive getting armor from either of the materials is with how messed up the economy is in 5e 1500 for full plate is fine and all but when you only get that amount of money at somewhere between 6th and 8th level when a heavy armor wearer should be able to obtain it at 2nd level is kind of an oof and shows how borked up the money system is plus unlike the previous systems where the effects given for the armor materials was an actual contest between them depending on build of course this edition kinda makes it a non contest the immunity to crits is hands down the winner every time why would anyone even want mithril at this point
I agree with the original poster, the character wearing the mitheral plate is going to be a party tank.when you have rogues, wizards able to use their Dex bonus and almost have the same AC as the fighter who is surrounded every fight while the rest of the party avoids being attacked because the fighter is taking all blows for them, a fighter who does eventually find mitheral should have the little bonus from their Dex to protect themselves. This will just have players avoiding being a tank, and parties that get overrun because nobody is up front.
When a tank has 6 enemies surrounding them, law of averages even with an AC of 20, one attack will get through every turn.
There is no right and wrong, only fun and boring.