Hmmm, after reading the rules, could a cone spell could engulf the caster as well, if they wanted it to? I'd love to know your thoughts.
Let's look at the rules first (underlining the important parts):
Area of Effects: Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
Cone: A cone extends in a direction you choose from its point of origin. A cone's width at a given point along its length is equal to that point's distance from the point of origin. A cone's area of effect specifies its maximum length. A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
My thoughts: Yes, for years and years, it was always shown as cone spell emenating away from the caster, but after reading the above, I now wonder if 5e is a little more flexible. Let's say your character is in a square (on a battlemat), and you cast a cone of cold for example, but you want the point of origin to not be a corner in front of you, but of a corner in back of you. I should be able to pick a point of origin anywhere within the range of the spell, right? So I want the origin to be behind me, and I understand that I too will be effected by the spell as well.
Why would someone want that you ask? Well imagine if you are heading West in a tunnel and there is a 90 degree turn going North, and you are in that corner wishing to do a cone spell at the monsters down the East corridor and the North corridor. Yeah, you'd take damage in the process, but the flexibility is there.
Yes, for the reasons you quoted already: there is no general requirement that a cone extend in a direction away from you, only that it extend in a direction you choose from its point of origin.
Technically, it can't, at least for cone of cold and not for any other cone shaped spell I am aware of ...
Each spell has a point of origin - true. However, spells like cone of cold define that point of origin already. The range of "Cone of Cold" is "SELF". So in this case, you have to cast cone of cold on yourself and you are the point of origin for the cone. (some point behind you is some distance away and is out of range for a spell with a range of SELF).
If you compare to fireball, it has a range of 150' and the spell specifies the origin of the spell as a point within range.
Other cone shaped spells like Burning Hands, Color Spray, Conjure Barage, Fear, Prismatic Spray - every one of these has a range of SELF.
So, if there was a cone shaped spell that allowed you to specify the point of origin then I would agree with you. However, every cone shaped spell I have found has a range of self so that the caster becomes the origin point of the spell (though you do have the option of including yourself in the area of effect of the cone if you wish).
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
A cone extends in a direction you choose from its point of origin. A cone's width at a given point along its length is equal to that point's distance from the point of origin. A cone's area of effect specifies its maximum length.
A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
When you place a template, follow all the rules in the Player’s Handbook for placing the associated area of effect. If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules.
and
Cones. A cone is represented by rows of tokens on the grid, extending from the cone’s point of origin. In the rows, the squares are adjoining side by side or corner to corner, as shown in diagram 2.5. To determine the number of rows a cone contains, divide its length by 5. For example, a 30-foot cone contains six rows.
Here’s how to create the rows. Starting with a square adjacent to the cone’s point of origin, place one token. The square can be orthogonally or diagonally adjacent to the point of origin. In every row beyond that one, place as many tokens as you placed in the previous row, plus one more token. Place this row’s tokens so that their squares each share a side with a square in the previous row. If the cone is orthogonally adjacent to the point of origin, you’ll have one more token to place in the row; place it on one end or the other of the row you just created (you don’t have to pick the side chosen in diagram 2.5). Keep placing tokens in this way until you’ve created all of the cone’s rows.
and
So all together...
When a cone uses the caster as a point of origin, that means that the narrow tip of the cone touches a face or corner of the character's square, not the center of the caster's own square (unless they decide otherwise, see 3)
Once that tip is placed, the cone can be pointed in any direction... including back at the caster's square.
Or failing that, at the caster's own discretion they could include themselves within the area of effect even if it is pointed away from them.
Glad I am not the only person that thinks this is possible. This didn't come up at a game at all but I was thinking about it and was like, whoa!
Another way to support this is thinking of a massive creature like an ancient dragon - they should be able to pick any originating point within their space.
"A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts."
"Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter)."
"When you place a template, follow all the rules in the Player’s Handbook for placing the associated area of effect. If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules."
"When you place a template, follow all the rules in the Player’s Handbook for placing the associated area of effect. If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules."
1) Every area of effect has a point of origin
2) Spells with a range of self originate AT the caster. They do not originate at some arbitrary vertex of the square the character is standing in. The placement of the template rule specifically states that if the area of effect originates from a spellcaster then " the template should extend out from the caster". A vertex BEHIND the caster is NOT out from the caster. ALL of the template and token examples extend the area of effect OUT from the caster and do not include vertices BEHIND the caster as the point of origin for the template.
3) The template placement rules are an aid to determining the area of effect on a grid. They do not define the area of effect. ALL of the statements regarding the point of origin of spells that are targeted on SELF are from the caster themselves and NOT some arbitrary vertex on a grid.
The bottom line is no, RAW, you can't choose a vertex of your square behind you as the point of origin for a spell with a range of self. Even the template placement rules indicate it extends OUT from the caster which in English means away from the caster and NOT behind the caster in the direction of the caster.
Anyway, feel free to house rule however you like but the rules make it very clear that the point of origin for a spell with a range of self IS the caster, not some arbitrary corner of a grid.
An entire square adjacent to the square that you are in?
The center of mass of your humanoid body?
A point that touches the exterior of your humanoid body?
A discrete point somewhere in your square?
A discrete points somewhere within a square adjacent to you?
The answer is: "yes." It means any and all of those, "however the caster likes." All of these origin points result in the same template being drawn on the battlemap, and all of them allow the caster to decide whether or not they are within and effected by their spell, and all of them still allow the caster to draw the cone in whatever direction they want once they pick an origin point. It's ambiguous, but it's okay that it's ambiguous, because the rules specifically tell you that the caster is allowed to pick whichever of these (or anything else they can come up with!) that they desire, so long as it doesn't result in changing what the rules do provide. So what do they provide?
The origin point must be "you"
The cone must extend from the origin point
A cone's width at a given point along its length is equal to that point's distance from the point of origin. A cone's area of effect specifies its maximum length.
None of that is jeopardized, whether or not you point the cone at yourself, so it's allowed.
An entire square adjacent to the square that you are in?
The center of mass of your humanoid body?
A point that touches the exterior of your humanoid body?
A discrete point somewhere in your square?
A discrete points somewhere within a square adjacent to you?
The answer is: "yes." It means any and all of those, "however the caster likes." All of these origin points result in the same template being drawn on the battlemap, and all of them allow the caster to decide whether or not they are within and effected by their spell, and all of them still allow the caster to draw the cone in whatever direction they want once they pick an origin point. It's ambiguous, but it's okay that it's ambiguous, because the rules specifically tell you that the caster is allowed to pick whichever of these (or anything else they can come up with!) that they desire, so long as it doesn't result in changing what the rules do provide. So what do they provide?
The n point must be "you"
The cone must extend from the origin point
A cone's width at a given point along its length is equal to that point's distance from the point of origin. A cone's area of effect specifies its maximum length.
None of that is jeopardized, whether or not you point the cone at yourself, so it's allowed.
The origin point must be "you." Does "you" mean:
The center of the square that you are in?
An edge or corner of the square that you are in?
An entire square adjacent to the square that you are in?
The center of mass of your humanoid body?
A point that touches the exterior of your humanoid body?
A discrete point somewhere in your square?
A discrete points somewhere within a square adjacent to you?
"You" means you. There are only two of your responses that can be interpreted as "you". None of the arbitrary points in and around the square you occupy are "you". I don't see where you find that interpretation anywhere in the rules. Grids are optional rules. 5e can be played in theater of the mind. When a spell states it originates with you that means the caster and no where else unless you decide to interpret "You" to be the creature and everything within some distance of you ... grass, rocks, table, chairs ... none of these are you even if they are nearby.
"As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips."
"A dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand."
"A blast of cold air erupts from your hands."
"Eight multicolored rays of light flash from your hand."
All these spell descriptions indicate that the spell effect originates with the hands of the character. Not at some arbitrary point in space within 5' of the character.
Can you choose a vertex behind the character as the source of the spell? NO because the character would need to be in the next square to choose that vertex since the spell must go OUT from the character as described in placing the templates.
Hey man, if you want to strike things off that list in violation of "the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules," be my guest. But that's not what the rules require, and it's not what Xanathar's recommends, so I feel like you're being overly restrictive beyond what the text asks for.
Hey man, if you want to strike things off that list in violation of "the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules," be my guest. But that's not what the rules require, and it's not what Xanathar's recommends, so I feel like you're being overly restrictive beyond what the text asks for.
Ok. Just curious why you choose to ignore the "Out from the caster" part of your quote as well as "within the bounds of the rules" and only highlight "however the caster likes"?
Out from the caster means away from or in front of. The other rules specify the point of origin AS the caster themselves and not any other location. The rule you are quoting says however the caster likes WITHIN the bounds of the rules which specify the origin as the caster AND that it comes OUT from them.
I just don't understand how you can interpret however the caster likes to be wherever they want it when the rest of the sentence clearly limits the placement.
Because none change how the cone gets drawn on the map, or who it effects. Okay it’s “out from” my hand... but I still explicitly can include myself in the area of effect,, so what does it matter whether “out from” needs to mean “away from my body” or if it can mean “[emerges] out from [the point I have chosen that is synonymous with “you”]” or “out from the square I’m in”?
Im all for hair splitting when it has a potential mechanical effect. But no matter how right you may be, the caster can still (1) include themselves in the area of effect, explicitly, and (2) point the cone whichever way they want in the map. So what does your attempt to restrict narrative control accomplish?
Since there is no facing in D&D 5e, isn't the whole question moot? A caster can move in one direction, turn around and cast, then keep moving.
Isn't this the case? Technically say you are facing north, and enemy approaches from the south, they don't get advantage on you as you can turn around, only would get advantage if a second enemy came from the north boxing you in.
So guys, How do you feel about a massive ancient dragon; could it cast the cone from any originating point within its space or only at the edge of its space?
So guys, How do you feel about a massive ancient dragon; could it cast the cone from any originating point within its space or only at the edge of its space?
I would still want it to make sense narratively, but as long as the dragon can conceivably put its mouth in that position and direction, I don't see why it can't use any point in its space.
Because none change how the cone gets drawn on the map, or who it effects. Okay it’s “out from” my hand... but I still explicitly can include myself in the area of effect,, so what does it matter whether “out from” needs to mean “away from my body” or if it can mean “[emerges] out from [the point I have chosen that is synonymous with “you”]” or “out from the square I’m in”?
Im all for hair splitting when it has a potential mechanical effect. But no matter how right you may be, the caster can still (1) include themselves in the area of effect, explicitly, and (2) point the cone whichever way they want in the map. So what does your attempt to restrict narrative control accomplish?
If you allow the cone to start on the point behind the caster the cone can include several adjacent targets to the caster instead of just the one at the base of the cone. Casting the spell from this point appears to me to be an attempt to shape the cone to hit more targets though at the cost of also possibly hitting the caster. Mechanically, it makes a difference and I wouldn't allow it in my games because of it. For example, look at the figure 2.5 you posted, moving the initial square into the caster's location then affects either 2 or three adjacent squares (as well as several other close squares in the other rows) rather than the single adjacent square in all of the other examples.
Allowing the player to move the targeting point to a location behind them to generate a mechanical advantage hitting more adjacent opponents as well as themselves isn't, in my opinion, what the rules say or were intending to say.
P.S. It seems to me that the discussion may have been inspired by a caster with 3 adjacent opponents wanting to cast cone of cold so that they could affect all three of the opponents in front of them and then arguing that if they can choose any point in the square as the point of origin then the cone should be able to hit all three adjacent opponents ... and personally, I would rule no on that due to the explanations already posted.
A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
This sentence does not change anything about the positioning of the cone at all except turn on one additional square included in the effect: your square. The particular point of origin is assumed to be the same either way. This option ONLY gives the ability to hit the square you are in, so would not allow you to hit any more enemies unless that enemy was occupying your square somehow. 5' away from the point of origin is still in the next square, and it is still only 5' wide there.
As you say David42, I would not allow a player to try to use a cone to hit an enemy north and an enemy west of their character by including their own square in the cone. I would say that they hit their square, the square northwest of them - missing both enemies , and 2 beyond that (etc.).
A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
This sentence does not change anything about the positioning of the cone at all except turn on one additional square included in the effect: your square. The particular point of origin is assumed to be the same either way. This option ONLY gives the ability to hit the square you are in, so would not allow you to hit any more enemies unless that enemy was occupying your square somehow. 5' away from the point of origin is still in the next square, and it is still only 5' wide there.
As you say David42, I would not allow a player to try to use a cone to hit an enemy north and an enemy west of their character by including their own square in the cone. I would say that they hit their square, the square northwest of them - missing both enemies , and 2 beyond that (etc.).
I agree with you. You can include yourself in the area of effect if you wish or not. Including yourself could allow you to include the square you are in as well - at least I would allow it - so if there was a swarm in your square I wouldn't see any issue with allowing the caster to affect themselves and the swarm. However moving the source point and template to include the square (which it seems to me what other folks in the thread were suggesting) also moves the entire area of effect to include multiple squares adjacent to the caster which I disagree with as being allowed by the rules.
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Hmmm, after reading the rules, could a cone spell could engulf the caster as well, if they wanted it to? I'd love to know your thoughts.
Let's look at the rules first (underlining the important parts):
Area of Effects:
Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
Cone:
A cone extends in a direction you choose from its point of origin. A cone's width at a given point along its length is equal to that point's distance from the point of origin. A cone's area of effect specifies its maximum length. A cone's point of origin is not included in the cone's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
My thoughts:
Yes, for years and years, it was always shown as cone spell emenating away from the caster, but after reading the above, I now wonder if 5e is a little more flexible.
Let's say your character is in a square (on a battlemat), and you cast a cone of cold for example, but you want the point of origin to not be a corner in front of you, but of a corner in back of you. I should be able to pick a point of origin anywhere within the range of the spell, right? So I want the origin to be behind me, and I understand that I too will be effected by the spell as well.
Why would someone want that you ask? Well imagine if you are heading West in a tunnel and there is a 90 degree turn going North, and you are in that corner wishing to do a cone spell at the monsters down the East corridor and the North corridor. Yeah, you'd take damage in the process, but the flexibility is there.
Again, I'd love to know your thoughts.
Yes, for the reasons you quoted already: there is no general requirement that a cone extend in a direction away from you, only that it extend in a direction you choose from its point of origin.
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I'm not sure why you would want it to, but it technically can.
Technically, it can't, at least for cone of cold and not for any other cone shaped spell I am aware of ...
Each spell has a point of origin - true. However, spells like cone of cold define that point of origin already. The range of "Cone of Cold" is "SELF". So in this case, you have to cast cone of cold on yourself and you are the point of origin for the cone. (some point behind you is some distance away and is out of range for a spell with a range of SELF).
If you compare to fireball, it has a range of 150' and the spell specifies the origin of the spell as a point within range.
Other cone shaped spells like Burning Hands, Color Spray, Conjure Barage, Fear, Prismatic Spray - every one of these has a range of SELF.
So, if there was a cone shaped spell that allowed you to specify the point of origin then I would agree with you. However, every cone shaped spell I have found has a range of self so that the caster becomes the origin point of the spell (though you do have the option of including yourself in the area of effect of the cone if you wish).
Nah, you totally can.
Chapter 10 Spellcasting- Range:
Chapter 10 Spellcasting- Areas of Effect:
Xanathar's Chapter 2 Spellcasting
and
and
So all together...
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Glad I am not the only person that thinks this is possible. This didn't come up at a game at all but I was thinking about it and was like, whoa!
Another way to support this is thinking of a massive creature like an ancient dragon - they should be able to pick any originating point within their space.
Ok. You quoted ..
"A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts."
"Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter)."
"When you place a template, follow all the rules in the Player’s Handbook for placing the associated area of effect. If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules."
"When you place a template, follow all the rules in the Player’s Handbook for placing the associated area of effect. If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules."
1) Every area of effect has a point of origin
2) Spells with a range of self originate AT the caster. They do not originate at some arbitrary vertex of the square the character is standing in. The placement of the template rule specifically states that if the area of effect originates from a spellcaster then " the template should extend out from the caster". A vertex BEHIND the caster is NOT out from the caster. ALL of the template and token examples extend the area of effect OUT from the caster and do not include vertices BEHIND the caster as the point of origin for the template.
3) The template placement rules are an aid to determining the area of effect on a grid. They do not define the area of effect. ALL of the statements regarding the point of origin of spells that are targeted on SELF are from the caster themselves and NOT some arbitrary vertex on a grid.
The bottom line is no, RAW, you can't choose a vertex of your square behind you as the point of origin for a spell with a range of self. Even the template placement rules indicate it extends OUT from the caster which in English means away from the caster and NOT behind the caster in the direction of the caster.
Anyway, feel free to house rule however you like but the rules make it very clear that the point of origin for a spell with a range of self IS the caster, not some arbitrary corner of a grid.
The origin point must be "you." Does "you" mean:
The answer is: "yes." It means any and all of those, "however the caster likes." All of these origin points result in the same template being drawn on the battlemap, and all of them allow the caster to decide whether or not they are within and effected by their spell, and all of them still allow the caster to draw the cone in whatever direction they want once they pick an origin point. It's ambiguous, but it's okay that it's ambiguous, because the rules specifically tell you that the caster is allowed to pick whichever of these (or anything else they can come up with!) that they desire, so long as it doesn't result in changing what the rules do provide. So what do they provide?
None of that is jeopardized, whether or not you point the cone at yourself, so it's allowed.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The origin point must be "you." Does "you" mean:
The center of the square that you are in?An edge or corner of the square that you are in?An entire square adjacent to the square that you are in?A discrete point somewhere in your square?A discrete points somewhere within a square adjacent to you?"You" means you. There are only two of your responses that can be interpreted as "you". None of the arbitrary points in and around the square you occupy are "you". I don't see where you find that interpretation anywhere in the rules. Grids are optional rules. 5e can be played in theater of the mind. When a spell states it originates with you that means the caster and no where else unless you decide to interpret "You" to be the creature and everything within some distance of you ... grass, rocks, table, chairs ... none of these are you even if they are nearby.
"As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips."
"A dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand."
"A blast of cold air erupts from your hands."
"Eight multicolored rays of light flash from your hand."
All these spell descriptions indicate that the spell effect originates with the hands of the character. Not at some arbitrary point in space within 5' of the character.
Can you choose a vertex behind the character as the source of the spell? NO because the character would need to be in the next square to choose that vertex since the spell must go OUT from the character as described in placing the templates.
Hey man, if you want to strike things off that list in violation of "the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules," be my guest. But that's not what the rules require, and it's not what Xanathar's recommends, so I feel like you're being overly restrictive beyond what the text asks for.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ok. Just curious why you choose to ignore the "Out from the caster" part of your quote as well as "within the bounds of the rules" and only highlight "however the caster likes"?
Out from the caster means away from or in front of. The other rules specify the point of origin AS the caster themselves and not any other location. The rule you are quoting says however the caster likes WITHIN the bounds of the rules which specify the origin as the caster AND that it comes OUT from them.
I just don't understand how you can interpret however the caster likes to be wherever they want it when the rest of the sentence clearly limits the placement.
Because none change how the cone gets drawn on the map, or who it effects. Okay it’s “out from” my hand... but I still explicitly can include myself in the area of effect,, so what does it matter whether “out from” needs to mean “away from my body” or if it can mean “[emerges] out from [the point I have chosen that is synonymous with “you”]” or “out from the square I’m in”?
Im all for hair splitting when it has a potential mechanical effect. But no matter how right you may be, the caster can still (1) include themselves in the area of effect, explicitly, and (2) point the cone whichever way they want in the map. So what does your attempt to restrict narrative control accomplish?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Since there is no facing in D&D 5e, isn't the whole question moot? A caster can move in one direction, turn around and cast, then keep moving.
Isn't this the case? Technically say you are facing north, and enemy approaches from the south, they don't get advantage on you as you can turn around, only would get advantage if a second enemy came from the north boxing you in.
So guys, How do you feel about a massive ancient dragon; could it cast the cone from any originating point within its space or only at the edge of its space?
any point within its space.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I would still want it to make sense narratively, but as long as the dragon can conceivably put its mouth in that position and direction, I don't see why it can't use any point in its space.
If you allow the cone to start on the point behind the caster the cone can include several adjacent targets to the caster instead of just the one at the base of the cone. Casting the spell from this point appears to me to be an attempt to shape the cone to hit more targets though at the cost of also possibly hitting the caster. Mechanically, it makes a difference and I wouldn't allow it in my games because of it. For example, look at the figure 2.5 you posted, moving the initial square into the caster's location then affects either 2 or three adjacent squares (as well as several other close squares in the other rows) rather than the single adjacent square in all of the other examples.
Allowing the player to move the targeting point to a location behind them to generate a mechanical advantage hitting more adjacent opponents as well as themselves isn't, in my opinion, what the rules say or were intending to say.
P.S. It seems to me that the discussion may have been inspired by a caster with 3 adjacent opponents wanting to cast cone of cold so that they could affect all three of the opponents in front of them and then arguing that if they can choose any point in the square as the point of origin then the cone should be able to hit all three adjacent opponents ... and personally, I would rule no on that due to the explanations already posted.
This sentence does not change anything about the positioning of the cone at all except turn on one additional square included in the effect: your square. The particular point of origin is assumed to be the same either way. This option ONLY gives the ability to hit the square you are in, so would not allow you to hit any more enemies unless that enemy was occupying your square somehow. 5' away from the point of origin is still in the next square, and it is still only 5' wide there.
As you say David42, I would not allow a player to try to use a cone to hit an enemy north and an enemy west of their character by including their own square in the cone. I would say that they hit their square, the square northwest of them - missing both enemies , and 2 beyond that (etc.).
I agree with you. You can include yourself in the area of effect if you wish or not. Including yourself could allow you to include the square you are in as well - at least I would allow it - so if there was a swarm in your square I wouldn't see any issue with allowing the caster to affect themselves and the swarm. However moving the source point and template to include the square (which it seems to me what other folks in the thread were suggesting) also moves the entire area of effect to include multiple squares adjacent to the caster which I disagree with as being allowed by the rules.