As a native English speaker, in the list of options in the Haste description I see one option worded as "Attack (one weapon attack only)".
This means that if the Attack action is taken, then the only use of that Attack action is to make one weapon attack. This precludes substituting that one weapon attack for anything else (since specific beats general).
Bear in mind there's more to the discussion than just that. First and foremost, we're not discussing substituting one weapon attack with something else such that no weapon attack is made, which is what you appear to be focused on. Here are the items that a full answer for Haste would need to address:
1 Weapon Attack + Non-Weapon Attack which replaces attack: Grapple someone and then stab them with a dagger.
You could also shove.
If spell attacks are by definition not weapon attacks, so we can be absolutely certain a spell attack is not a weapon attack, you could attack with magic stone.
Regardless, a Sun Soul Monk with Extra Attack could punch and radiant sun bolt.
A Bladesinger could stab someone and cast a cantrip that makes a spell attack.
1 Weapon Attack + Non-Attack which replaces attack: Beast Master Ranger with Primal Companion stabs someone and gives a beast order.
A Bladesinger could stab someone and cast a cantrip that doesn't attack.
1 Weapon Attack + Non-Attack which does not replace attack: Horizon Walker teleports 10 feet over to someone and stabs them.
Examples of this are infinite, including Battle Master Maneuvers, Sword Bard Flourishes, and so on. Basically, any feature which interacts with the action economy by attaching to an existing attack.
1 Weapon Attack which is performed by replacing an attack with a spell that produces the weapon attack it replaced: Bladesinger casts Booming Blade as their entire Haste action.
There is a separate question whether or not Bladesingers can do this, posited by people who think a Bladesinger must make an attack in addition to their cantrip for the Attack cast to be legal. If they can't, that only means this question has no current example builds that can do it - it doesn't mean the question is answered, only that it remains irrelevant until we get a subclass that unambiguously can.
The ambiguity is as follows: if you use Haste to take the Attack action and, once you are done, the Attack action contained exactly one weapon attack, what are the conditions under which we can say the action was legal, and what are the conditions under which we can say it was illegal?
Yeah, if you use the Haste Action to cast use the Attack action which you sub for Booming Blade you'll end up making exactly one weapon attack. IDK why there is any confusion here. That is expressly the number permitted.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I can't help but imagine a 20th level Cavalier Fighter with Polearm Master and Sentinel under the effects of Haste and Action surge. For two rounds per short rest, you can make the following number of attacks:
The ambiguity is as follows: if you use Haste to take the Attack action and, once you are done, the Attack action contained exactly one weapon attack, what are the conditions under which we can say the action was legal, and what are the conditions under which we can say it was illegal?
And the answer to that is that haste tells you exactly what you can do. If your action can be described by more than "one weapon attack only" then you aren't given permission by haste to do it. It isn't hard.
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
PHb, Combat, Actions in combat, options include: Attack [enabled but as "one as weapon attack only"], Cast a spell [not enabled by the haste spell], Dash [enabled], Disengage [enabled], Dodge [not enabled], Help [not enabled], Hide [enabled], Ready [not enabled], Search [not enabled], Use an Object [enabled].
You can't use the haste enabled "additional action" to "cast a spell". It's name's not down. It's not coming in.
You can't use the haste enabled "additional action" to "cast a spell". It's name's not down. It's not coming in.
No one is trying to use the "Cast a Spell" Action though, they are suggesting uses of the "Attack" Action so your argument is moot.
There are ways to make spell attacks via the Attack Action, there are ways to make weapon attacks via the Cast a Spell Action and, if you are a Bladesinger, there are ways to use the Attack Action to cast a cantrip that makes you do an attack with a weapon. The problem is that the designers made poor choice with Haste in using language that doesn't interact well with the rest of the relevant rules.
Edge cases are always edge cases. This is one of the reasons why we have live DM's rather than this being some board game with essentially automated DMing.
Yea sure but the fix here is so freaking easy. Put the restriction as not allowing Extra Attack with the additional Haste Action and then everything sorts itself out. They'd get the effects they want and it would work with other related rules (and should be expected to work with future additions too).
Edge cases are always edge cases. This is one of the reasons why we have live DM's rather than this being some board game with essentially automated DMing.
Yea sure but the fix here is so freaking easy. Put the restriction as not allowing Extra Attack with the additional Haste Action and then everything sorts itself out. They'd get the effects they want and it would work with other related rules (and should be expected to work with future additions too).
We all know what they wanted out of the rule, right? That you can attack once with a basic normal run of the mill weapon attack. So why is there so much effort to make a spell shaped peg fit into a weapon attack shaped hole?
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't.
We all know what they wanted out of the rule, right? That you can attack once with a basic normal run of the mill weapon attack. So why is there so much effort to make a spell shaped peg fit into a weapon attack shaped hole?
At a guess? The fact that WotC created features specifically meant to substitute spells for normal attacks.
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't..
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
What you are arguing is for Bladesinger to be able to supersede the conditions specified by Haste.
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't..
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
What you are arguing is for Bladesinger to be able to supersede the conditions specified by Haste.
And that’s the crux of the debate. Haste specifically says one weapon attack. Bladesinger extra attack says when you take the attack action you can cast a cantrip (so attack action, not cast a spell action) with which you can use booming blade (which makes one weapon attack) Yes you are casting a spell, but it is the attack action you are using (compliant with haste) and you are making one weapon attack (also compliant with haste)
So the question arises which “specific” overrides. Haste or Bladesinger?
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you cancastone of your cantripsin place of one of those attacks.
This is the Cast a Spell action used "in place of ...[an] attack."
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you cancastone of your cantripsin place of one of those attacks.
This is the Cast a Spell action used "in place of ...[an] attack."
Yes. But this ONLY applies to the Bladesinger. There are NO other classes that have this feature. This is the ONLY way to cast one cantrip and make one attack using a single action.
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't.
We all know what they wanted out of the rule, right? That you can attack once with a basic normal run of the mill weapon attack. So why is there so much effort to make a spell shaped peg fit into a weapon attack shaped hole?
At a guess? The fact that WotC created features specifically meant to substitute spells for normal attacks.
Nothing in the text allows casting a spell. Haste only permits a subset of actions: the ones in the list. Is cast a spell on the list?
And when you substitute them, you are using those, rather than making a melee weapon attack. If you happen to cast a spell that asks you to make a melee weapon attack, have you cast a spell?
You keep looking at this like the number is the important part of the limitations that haste presents. Haste limits your action to those in its list. If it isn't in the list, it isn't allowed, no matter what series of technicalities you think you have worked through. Why would you even hazard the thought otherwise? It is the worst kind of rules lawyering and incomprehensible to me in a forum trying to understand rules.
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you cancastone of your cantripsin place of one of those attacks.
This is the Cast a Spell action used "in place of ...[an] attack."
Yes. But this ONLY applies to the Bladesinger. There are NO other classes that have this feature. This is the ONLY way to cast one cantrip and make one attack using a single action.
Non-multiclassed Wizards/bladesingers have one action from levels 1-5. At 6th level bladesingers gain the feature for an extra attack. They can either make two attacks or attack once and cast a cantrip. An attack is an action as is casting a spell.
If the bladesinger is hasted then they gain an "additional action" but this is with the RAW condition " That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't..
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
What you are arguing is for Bladesinger to be able to supersede the conditions specified by Haste.
And that’s the crux of the debate. Haste specifically says one weapon attack. Bladesinger extra attack says when you take the attack action you can cast a cantrip (so attack action, not cast a spell action) with which you can use booming blade (which makes one weapon attack) Yes you are casting a spell, but it is the attack action you are using (compliant with haste) and you are making one weapon attack (also compliant with haste)
So the question arises which “specific” overrides. Haste or Bladesinger?
No it's either Bladesinger overrides or the conditions of both stand. Bladesinger says can not must. Haste says can't. Haste does not override Bladesinger because its RAW condition is followed as Bladesinger is not demanding anything. The demands are only coming from the players.
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You can replace one of your two attacks from the extra attack feature with a cantrip. You can do this "in place of one of those attacks".
Haste gives you an "additional attack" which isn't "one of those attacks".
Haste gives you an "additional attack" which isn't "one of those attacks".
haste Reread the spell. Haste doesn't grant you "an additional attack". <--- You're using quotation marks here trying to convince us this is a quote but it isn't in the spell text so you're making it up.
Haste gives you an "Additional Action".
Then it gives you several options for how to use that action: That action can be used only to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
Does the bladesinger use one of these actions to do what he's trying to do? Yes/No?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Bear in mind there's more to the discussion than just that. First and foremost, we're not discussing substituting one weapon attack with something else such that no weapon attack is made, which is what you appear to be focused on. Here are the items that a full answer for Haste would need to address:
The ambiguity is as follows: if you use Haste to take the Attack action and, once you are done, the Attack action contained exactly one weapon attack, what are the conditions under which we can say the action was legal, and what are the conditions under which we can say it was illegal?
Yeah, if you use the Haste Action to cast use the Attack action which you sub for Booming Blade you'll end up making exactly one weapon attack. IDK why there is any confusion here. That is expressly the number permitted.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I can't help but imagine a 20th level Cavalier Fighter with Polearm Master and Sentinel under the effects of Haste and Action surge. For two rounds per short rest, you can make the following number of attacks:
4 (Action) + 1 (Bonus Action) + 4 (Surge Action) + 1 (Haste Action) + ∞ (Potentially infinite opportunity attacks)
And the answer to that is that haste tells you exactly what you can do. If your action can be described by more than "one weapon attack only" then you aren't given permission by haste to do it. It isn't hard.
Haste
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
PHb, Combat, Actions in combat, options include: Attack [enabled but as "one as weapon attack only"], Cast a spell [not enabled by the haste spell], Dash [enabled], Disengage [enabled], Dodge [not enabled], Help [not enabled], Hide [enabled], Ready [not enabled], Search [not enabled], Use an Object [enabled].
You can't use the haste enabled "additional action" to "cast a spell". It's name's not down. It's not coming in.
No one is trying to use the "Cast a Spell" Action though, they are suggesting uses of the "Attack" Action so your argument is moot.
There are ways to make spell attacks via the Attack Action, there are ways to make weapon attacks via the Cast a Spell Action and, if you are a Bladesinger, there are ways to use the Attack Action to cast a cantrip that makes you do an attack with a weapon. The problem is that the designers made poor choice with Haste in using language that doesn't interact well with the rest of the relevant rules.
Yea sure but the fix here is so freaking easy. Put the restriction as not allowing Extra Attack with the additional Haste Action and then everything sorts itself out. They'd get the effects they want and it would work with other related rules (and should be expected to work with future additions too).
Like by specifying one weapon attack only?
We all know what they wanted out of the rule, right? That you can attack once with a basic normal run of the mill weapon attack. So why is there so much effort to make a spell shaped peg fit into a weapon attack shaped hole?
The "I haven't exceeded the number of attacks if I cast this spell" might be true, but the "you've still cast a spell, which isn't something haste allows" part is also always true.
Bladesinger actions can optionally include casting spells or attacking.
Haste options include attacking but do not include casting spells.
The bladesinger subclass provides a flexible set of action options and says fine.
The haste spell, says no.
One way to look at it is that you have to meet both requirements or you're breaking a rule.
You keep saying that but it isn't actually true. Yes Haste doesn't allow for the Cast a Spell Action but nothing in its text prohibits spells in general. And as there are features that allow for spells to be cast without the Cast a Spell Action the limit you claim exist simply doesn't.
At a guess? The fact that WotC created features specifically meant to substitute spells for normal attacks.
Demonstrably false.
Haste
... Until the spell ends, the target... gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
What you are arguing is for Bladesinger to be able to supersede the conditions specified by Haste.
And that’s the crux of the debate. Haste specifically says one weapon attack. Bladesinger extra attack says when you take the attack action you can cast a cantrip (so attack action, not cast a spell action) with which you can use booming blade (which makes one weapon attack) Yes you are casting a spell, but it is the attack action you are using (compliant with haste) and you are making one weapon attack (also compliant with haste)
So the question arises which “specific” overrides. Haste or Bladesinger?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
This is the Cast a Spell action used "in place of ...[an] attack."
Yes. But this ONLY applies to the Bladesinger. There are NO other classes that have this feature. This is the ONLY way to cast one cantrip and make one attack using a single action.
Nothing in the text allows casting a spell. Haste only permits a subset of actions: the ones in the list. Is cast a spell on the list?
And when you substitute them, you are using those, rather than making a melee weapon attack. If you happen to cast a spell that asks you to make a melee weapon attack, have you cast a spell?
You keep looking at this like the number is the important part of the limitations that haste presents. Haste limits your action to those in its list. If it isn't in the list, it isn't allowed, no matter what series of technicalities you think you have worked through. Why would you even hazard the thought otherwise? It is the worst kind of rules lawyering and incomprehensible to me in a forum trying to understand rules.
Non-multiclassed Wizards/bladesingers have one action from levels 1-5. At 6th level bladesingers gain the feature for an extra attack. They can either make two attacks or attack once and cast a cantrip. An attack is an action as is casting a spell.
If the bladesinger is hasted then they gain an "additional action" but this is with the RAW condition " That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
No it's either Bladesinger overrides or the conditions of both stand.
Bladesinger says can not must.
Haste says can't.
Haste does not override Bladesinger because its RAW condition is followed as Bladesinger is not demanding anything.
The demands are only coming from the players.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You can replace one of your two attacks from the extra attack feature with a cantrip. You can do this "in place of one of those attacks".
Haste gives you an "additional attack" which isn't "one of those attacks".
haste Reread the spell. Haste doesn't grant you "an additional attack". <--- You're using quotation marks here trying to convince us this is a quote but it isn't in the spell text so you're making it up.
Haste gives you an "Additional Action".
Then it gives you several options for how to use that action: That action can be used only to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
Does the bladesinger use one of these actions to do what he's trying to do? Yes/No?
Yes. So he can.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.