So this is kind of a weird question, but i'm looking to do a little min/maxing. BUT i'd like to keep it in the realm of reason that my character could have planned for this. Basically is it reasonable that a character would understand that has they grow stronger they will learn new feats? If so, is that more of a wisdom knowledge or an intelligence knowledge?
As for what i'm looking to do, i'm thinking of having my Bard get some blank spell scrolls and inscribe into them certain ritual magic spells. Then once my character reaches level 8 (currently level 5) he will pick up the Ritual Caster feat and transfer those spells into the book. I know this will cost me double the gold to accomplish (X gold to make the scrolls, then X gold to transfer them), compared to if i just "found" the scrolls before putting them into my book.... but spells scrolls aren't the easiest thing to come across and how likely am i to stumble across specific ritual spell scrolls? The basic idea i'm going for here is that my character would be able to hold on to these scrolls thus opening up quite a few "known spells" slots that he would otherwise have to "burn" till level 8.
I'm looking to use the Ritual Caster feat to learn Wizard rituals, and with there being 8 rituals that both Wizards and Bards can cast i figure it couldn't hurt to have some (or all if i'm lucky) of those spells, in scroll form, for when i reach 8th level.
I usually think that most feats are something the character has been working on, some new combat maneuver or something that they have been practicing. Then one day, it just clicks into place, and they can pull it off. It’s like when you’re learning to ride a bike, you fall and you fall and you fall, and then, suddenly you don’t, you just get it
So in this case you could say he’s aware of the concept of ritual casting, and has been devoting effort to understand how it works, and has confidence enough in himself that he knows one day he’ll be able to pull it off, so he prepares accordingly.
The way I picture leveling up, the character may be aware of certain feats or features that other humanoids have achieved (INT knowledge), or they may not. Regardless, they can "plan" their progression by striving to learn certain skills and finally succeeding after a certain amount of practical experience (leveling up).
So yes, it can be reasoned why your bard would hoard wizard scrolls. They are trying to learn wizard ritual magic and they have successfully learned it when they get the feat.
So you are proposing scribing some bard spells that you currently know, forgetting/replacing those spells as you level up from 5 to 8, then copying the spells into your ritual book?
Yes, that sounds fine. You are a bard and one of a bards duties is to study and record lore and knowledge. Roleplay your character as engaged in a long term study of magics beyond a bards normal intuitive wielding of musical magic. The scrolls are part of the early studies, and the feat itself is just the mid-point of the project. The study is a life-long quest, and you can actively search out yet more ritual spells to study.
This is EXACTLY what i'm trying to do. Either get my hands on a few scrolls as i play, or as i level from 5-8 learning/swapping out a couple spells (rituals) that my character writes down (spell scrolls he squirrels away), then swap them out as i level up. I think most people can agree that stuff like Identify/ Tiny Hut/ Comprehend languages/ etc.... are really useful spells that make certain problems in non-problems; but who really wants to have 4-6 utility spells (with hyper specific uses) when you can only know 8-10 spells?
I would be in favor of this and allow it as a DM. Especially if you play up the negatives of your character's mild obsession; like you always spend extra time searching any bookshelves or scroll collections, insist the party breaks into this abandoned necromancer's tower, waste time at libraries and chatting to wandering wizards. That's how I would start handing out extra scrolls as rewards.
1) Need INT or WIS 13 to take Ritual Caster Feat. Probably not a problem, but if you stat dumped them both... 2) Need to make an INT (Arcana) (DC 10+spell level) check to successfully copy a scroll into a book. Scroll is destroyed either way. So maybe make multiple copies of each spell to insure success, since it sounds like you want to scribe and forget the spells. 3) DM may not allow a Bard Scroll to be copied as a Wizard Ritual. There is also this little tidbit: A Wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as Spells in spellbooks can be copied. So now the question becomes what makes it a Wizard spell, the mere fact it is on the Wizard spell list, or did it need to be scribed as a Wizard spell, using INT as the casting attribute?
Overall, if a player is willing to burn a feat on Ritual Caster, then the decision to allow or disallow previous forethought by the player really doesn't matter since the character will most likely have easy access in a high magic campaign, and normal access in a standard campaign to those ritual spells popping up in the normal course of play. In a low magic setting, it wouldn't be allowed in the first place...
After reading what everyone has contributed thus far (7 posts), I think that you could look at it two ways.
If you want to play up the lore aspect of the bard (not just the College of Lore), then you could focus on the Intelligence aspect of the Ritual Caster. Something along the vein of "I know that this is how the wizard did this and I'll perfect that method until I get it right!" Have the bard then chat up all the wizards that he comes across to learn the different nuances of each intonation, very gesture, the difference between "Leviosa" and "Leviosar" (or however that clip from Harry Potter went).
On the other hand, if you want to play up the performance aspect of the bard, then you could focus on the wisdom aspect. "I know that the wizard got this to happen and I'm going to figure out the right composition until I get it right!" Then the bard treats it as a performance, keeping time in his head to match the intonation properly, getting into character to get the gestures just right, focusing on the accents and other delivery to get the words just right.
In other words, it ends up being the same mechanically, your choices will affect the how it happened for the character. The why it happened could also be an intriguing story to pursue as well. Undoubtedly, you've got a general sense of that already. I can think of four reasons why a bard would want to learn a spell, then forget it, then relearn it again at significant cost later.
1) The bard wishes that he were a wizard, but he could not master the nuances of wizarding. Where rote study and practice failed him, the performative aspects of barding did not. Typically, the differences aren't enough to trouble the bard but the rituals were something that the wizards did when he was trying to become a wizard and they just don't feel right as a bardic ritual. Being able to master those subtle differences is enough to trigger the tinge of OCD that the character has to master it just right.
2) The bard is a charlatan who is trying to pose as a wizard. She doesn't feel that there is enough difference in her spellcasting style for most people to notice the difference. But those damned wizards have those spellbooks to help them remember all of those spells. Clearly, the cost to learn all off those spells would be enormous, particularly if she couldn't cast half of them because she didn't understand the nuances. However, there are a handful that she could learn and then put into a spellbook, just to have it. She doesn't really care if she ever casts them other than the fact that she can if she's asked.
3) The bard doesn't have the greatest memory. She struggles to remember everything. She is getting better, but those spells that only pop up occasionally sometimes cause her problems. As such, she started a project to help her to better remember how to cast them later. She can only cast them as rituals because she has to get herself into the vibe of what the spell is trying to accomplish to remember the specifics that she has down pat with her other spells.
4) The bard likes to flaunt how much money he has. He also feels that nothing says "I have money" than being able to spend money for resources that would be superfluous for him otherwise. "Why should I spend the time mastering the spell when I can just buy it off of others?" In this case, hiring others to pen the spell scrolls at the same cost that you would transcribe them yourself or maybe a gold or two more would be a way to show that you have money, while allowing you to make more money by learning other spells that are more useful for you long term. Changing the motivation slightly changes this from "I have money, look at all of this money that I'm spending" to "I'm trying to be as productive with my assets as I can. I only have so much time to learn new things, but I can get others to give me instructions to help me to 'know' more". Either way, this is the most likely motivation to get you all of the spells that you want, since you are simply hiring people to do it (or perhaps have already hired them to do it, payment on delivery). You just need a reason to go back to town at the right level. It can also fit a more linear campaign if you are "buying" them as you go.
Since the class does have access to Magical Secrets anyway, find out if your DM would allow you to add an additional ritual to your ritual spellbook whenever you would get your Magical Secrets. The cost would be the same as what you've been doing for the other rituals, but these ones would be the few that the bard doesn't normally have access to. The timing would make sense thematically and it would certainly seem to be in character for the bard. With as much thought as you've put into this, I'd even let you retroactively add one (following the same cost patterns for the feat) for the level 6 Magical Secrets if you went Lore Bard. Those spells would still have to be ritual spells from the wizard spell list (since you mentioned that one specifically) so that may not add as many as I'm thinking it would.
Basically is it reasonable that a character would understand that has they grow stronger they will learn new feats? If so, is that more of a wisdom knowledge or an intelligence knowledge?
It is perfectly reasonable. The underlying assumption behind making decisions when you "level up" is that your character has been doing whatever training/research would be necessary in their downtime. Unless your DM has a specific requirement for your campaign, you don't need to do anything by RAW about justifying leveling decisions for which your character meets the prerequisites.
Neither & both. It's up to you and your DM to determine what's reasonable for your character to know.
Bottom line: things like feats & multiclassing are both optional rules that are only possible if your DM allows them in your campaign. If they are allowed by your DM, you only have to go beyond "this is just what I'm doing" if your DM requires you to.
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So this is kind of a weird question, but i'm looking to do a little min/maxing. BUT i'd like to keep it in the realm of reason that my character could have planned for this. Basically is it reasonable that a character would understand that has they grow stronger they will learn new feats? If so, is that more of a wisdom knowledge or an intelligence knowledge?
As for what i'm looking to do, i'm thinking of having my Bard get some blank spell scrolls and inscribe into them certain ritual magic spells. Then once my character reaches level 8 (currently level 5) he will pick up the Ritual Caster feat and transfer those spells into the book. I know this will cost me double the gold to accomplish (X gold to make the scrolls, then X gold to transfer them), compared to if i just "found" the scrolls before putting them into my book.... but spells scrolls aren't the easiest thing to come across and how likely am i to stumble across specific ritual spell scrolls? The basic idea i'm going for here is that my character would be able to hold on to these scrolls thus opening up quite a few "known spells" slots that he would otherwise have to "burn" till level 8.
I'm looking to use the Ritual Caster feat to learn Wizard rituals, and with there being 8 rituals that both Wizards and Bards can cast i figure it couldn't hurt to have some (or all if i'm lucky) of those spells, in scroll form, for when i reach 8th level.
I usually think that most feats are something the character has been working on, some new combat maneuver or something that they have been practicing. Then one day, it just clicks into place, and they can pull it off. It’s like when you’re learning to ride a bike, you fall and you fall and you fall, and then, suddenly you don’t, you just get it
So in this case you could say he’s aware of the concept of ritual casting, and has been devoting effort to understand how it works, and has confidence enough in himself that he knows one day he’ll be able to pull it off, so he prepares accordingly.
The way I picture leveling up, the character may be aware of certain feats or features that other humanoids have achieved (INT knowledge), or they may not. Regardless, they can "plan" their progression by striving to learn certain skills and finally succeeding after a certain amount of practical experience (leveling up).
So yes, it can be reasoned why your bard would hoard wizard scrolls. They are trying to learn wizard ritual magic and they have successfully learned it when they get the feat.
So you are proposing scribing some bard spells that you currently know, forgetting/replacing those spells as you level up from 5 to 8, then copying the spells into your ritual book?
Yes, that sounds fine. You are a bard and one of a bards duties is to study and record lore and knowledge. Roleplay your character as engaged in a long term study of magics beyond a bards normal intuitive wielding of musical magic. The scrolls are part of the early studies, and the feat itself is just the mid-point of the project. The study is a life-long quest, and you can actively search out yet more ritual spells to study.
This is EXACTLY what i'm trying to do. Either get my hands on a few scrolls as i play, or as i level from 5-8 learning/swapping out a couple spells (rituals) that my character writes down (spell scrolls he squirrels away), then swap them out as i level up. I think most people can agree that stuff like Identify/ Tiny Hut/ Comprehend languages/ etc.... are really useful spells that make certain problems in non-problems; but who really wants to have 4-6 utility spells (with hyper specific uses) when you can only know 8-10 spells?
I would be in favor of this and allow it as a DM. Especially if you play up the negatives of your character's mild obsession; like you always spend extra time searching any bookshelves or scroll collections, insist the party breaks into this abandoned necromancer's tower, waste time at libraries and chatting to wandering wizards. That's how I would start handing out extra scrolls as rewards.
Couple of things to keep in mind/ponder about:
1) Need INT or WIS 13 to take Ritual Caster Feat. Probably not a problem, but if you stat dumped them both...
2) Need to make an INT (Arcana) (DC 10+spell level) check to successfully copy a scroll into a book. Scroll is destroyed either way. So maybe make multiple copies of each spell to insure success, since it sounds like you want to scribe and forget the spells.
3) DM may not allow a Bard Scroll to be copied as a Wizard Ritual. There is also this little tidbit: A Wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as Spells in spellbooks can be copied. So now the question becomes what makes it a Wizard spell, the mere fact it is on the Wizard spell list, or did it need to be scribed as a Wizard spell, using INT as the casting attribute?
Overall, if a player is willing to burn a feat on Ritual Caster, then the decision to allow or disallow previous forethought by the player really doesn't matter since the character will most likely have easy access in a high magic campaign, and normal access in a standard campaign to those ritual spells popping up in the normal course of play. In a low magic setting, it wouldn't be allowed in the first place...
After reading what everyone has contributed thus far (7 posts), I think that you could look at it two ways.
If you want to play up the lore aspect of the bard (not just the College of Lore), then you could focus on the Intelligence aspect of the Ritual Caster. Something along the vein of "I know that this is how the wizard did this and I'll perfect that method until I get it right!" Have the bard then chat up all the wizards that he comes across to learn the different nuances of each intonation, very gesture, the difference between "Leviosa" and "Leviosar" (or however that clip from Harry Potter went).
On the other hand, if you want to play up the performance aspect of the bard, then you could focus on the wisdom aspect. "I know that the wizard got this to happen and I'm going to figure out the right composition until I get it right!" Then the bard treats it as a performance, keeping time in his head to match the intonation properly, getting into character to get the gestures just right, focusing on the accents and other delivery to get the words just right.
In other words, it ends up being the same mechanically, your choices will affect the how it happened for the character. The why it happened could also be an intriguing story to pursue as well. Undoubtedly, you've got a general sense of that already. I can think of four reasons why a bard would want to learn a spell, then forget it, then relearn it again at significant cost later.
1) The bard wishes that he were a wizard, but he could not master the nuances of wizarding. Where rote study and practice failed him, the performative aspects of barding did not. Typically, the differences aren't enough to trouble the bard but the rituals were something that the wizards did when he was trying to become a wizard and they just don't feel right as a bardic ritual. Being able to master those subtle differences is enough to trigger the tinge of OCD that the character has to master it just right.
2) The bard is a charlatan who is trying to pose as a wizard. She doesn't feel that there is enough difference in her spellcasting style for most people to notice the difference. But those damned wizards have those spellbooks to help them remember all of those spells. Clearly, the cost to learn all off those spells would be enormous, particularly if she couldn't cast half of them because she didn't understand the nuances. However, there are a handful that she could learn and then put into a spellbook, just to have it. She doesn't really care if she ever casts them other than the fact that she can if she's asked.
3) The bard doesn't have the greatest memory. She struggles to remember everything. She is getting better, but those spells that only pop up occasionally sometimes cause her problems. As such, she started a project to help her to better remember how to cast them later. She can only cast them as rituals because she has to get herself into the vibe of what the spell is trying to accomplish to remember the specifics that she has down pat with her other spells.
4) The bard likes to flaunt how much money he has. He also feels that nothing says "I have money" than being able to spend money for resources that would be superfluous for him otherwise. "Why should I spend the time mastering the spell when I can just buy it off of others?" In this case, hiring others to pen the spell scrolls at the same cost that you would transcribe them yourself or maybe a gold or two more would be a way to show that you have money, while allowing you to make more money by learning other spells that are more useful for you long term. Changing the motivation slightly changes this from "I have money, look at all of this money that I'm spending" to "I'm trying to be as productive with my assets as I can. I only have so much time to learn new things, but I can get others to give me instructions to help me to 'know' more". Either way, this is the most likely motivation to get you all of the spells that you want, since you are simply hiring people to do it (or perhaps have already hired them to do it, payment on delivery). You just need a reason to go back to town at the right level. It can also fit a more linear campaign if you are "buying" them as you go.
Since the class does have access to Magical Secrets anyway, find out if your DM would allow you to add an additional ritual to your ritual spellbook whenever you would get your Magical Secrets. The cost would be the same as what you've been doing for the other rituals, but these ones would be the few that the bard doesn't normally have access to. The timing would make sense thematically and it would certainly seem to be in character for the bard. With as much thought as you've put into this, I'd even let you retroactively add one (following the same cost patterns for the feat) for the level 6 Magical Secrets if you went Lore Bard. Those spells would still have to be ritual spells from the wizard spell list (since you mentioned that one specifically) so that may not add as many as I'm thinking it would.
Everyone has presented great ideas for narrative explanations of what you want to do. To the OP's actual baseline rules questions:
Bottom line: things like feats & multiclassing are both optional rules that are only possible if your DM allows them in your campaign. If they are allowed by your DM, you only have to go beyond "this is just what I'm doing" if your DM requires you to.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.