Currently a bit confused with how the Crossbow works in relation to combat. My character is an Eldritch knight lvl 3. I chose fighter because I thought my party was going to have other magic casters on it, but everyone just sort of charges the enemy. We are in a modern day type setting, so a lot of our fights wind up in back alleys and similar locations. This means that space to move around is limited. If I roll low on Initiative (Which has happened a few times already) everyone charges and surrounds the target we are fighting, leaving me with no way to get to them. This leaves me standing at the back where we started, looking at the mass of people in front of me, then at my longsword, then back at the mass of people in front of me and asking myself "How am I supposed to use this now?" It has been rather entertaining, but does put me in a strategic problem of "How the fk do I fight now?"
Luckily I have a crossbow. Unluckily I don't know how the reload mechanic and firing it works in relation to combat with the fighter. This is what I need help with.
Currently I have the Action Surge ability, which lets me gain an additional action for my turn. As I understand it, this would let me use Action to Fire, Bonus Action to Reload, Action Surge to Fire, and ends my turn. Meaning I have to reload before the next attack. I'm pretty sure I got that right, but confirm for me as I'm still a noob.
When I hit lvl 5 I will get the Extra Attack option when fighting which, as I understand it, would let me fire the crossbow twice. Since it still needs a bonus action to reload the weapon, it seems like this would eliminate most of my damage output ability.
Playing an Eldritch Knight so I need to figure out how spell casting would work in relation to the extra attack as well. I have a spell called Mind Sliver (Cantrip) Can I attack with it twice and use my bonus action to reload the crossbow? So Shoot, Reload, Mind Sliver? Or if I put a poison on the bolts that requires a saving throw before the battle, Mind Sliver, Shoot, Reload. How would this work?
Finally, I hadn't heard much about bows and needing to reload. Do they have this mechanic or is the act of drawing an arrow and shooting it all classified as an action? In which case (Since we are in a modern day setting) Would it be more beneficial for me to invest in a bow of some sort with some unique arrows and quiver and just be a magic hawk eye relying on a tech bow and some magic tricks as my gimmicks to take the most advantage of the situations? (Currently have spells like Mind Sliver, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Absorb Elements, Shield, Find Familiar [Hawk from Assassins Creed concept], Burning Hands).
Most of my group, including the DM are new to the game, so I want to have a solid understanding of this to take some of the weight off the DM's shoulders.
all Crossbows have the Loading which states "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
I'm not sure where you got the bonus action interaction with crossbows, but that is not the case in 5e, if that's something your DM allows then you'll need to ask them your question to get a better/more accurate response. If you're wanting to use a crossbow with extra attacks and Action Surge then I would look at using an ASI to pick up the feat Crossbow Expert. This removes the Loading property from crossbows and would let you attack with a crossbow as many attacks as you could make in a turn just like a longsword.
All that being said I would actually consider Handaxes or Javelins if your main weapon is a Longsword. Longswords use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls, and Crossbows use Dexterity. Thrown weapons use Strength, but typically have a shorter range and obviously once you've thrown your weapon you need to pick it back up or have a second weapon to throw before you could attack again. A few Handaxes on your person at all time and you should be fine for a round or 2 of combat until you can get into the fray. Also losing a Handaxe isn't typically a huge deal since they're only 5gp to replace.
You don’t need to spend a bonus action to reload a crossbow. Loading it is part of the action you take to fire it. You can fire it twice with your two actions from action surge and still have your bonus action left over to do whatever with.
You don’t need to spend a bonus action to reload a crossbow. Loading it is part of the action you take to fire it. You can fire it twice with your two actions from action surge and still have your bonus action left over to do whatever with.
But only if you have Crossbow Expert, because of the loading property.
So when I hit level 5 will I still only be able to fire the crossbow once even though the class lets me attack twice? The crossbow description makes it sound like that is how it works. Good to know that it doesn't actually require the bonus action to load it though. We thought that is what that meant.
Finally, I hadn't heard much about bows and needing to reload. Do they have this mechanic or is the act of drawing an arrow and shooting it all classified as an action? In which case (Since we are in a modern day setting) Would it be more beneficial for me to invest in a bow of some sort with some unique arrows and quiver and just be a magic hawk eye relying on a tech bow and some magic tricks as my gimmicks to take the most advantage of the situations? (Currently have spells like Mind Sliver, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Absorb Elements, Shield, Find Familiar [Hawk from Assassins Creed concept], Burning Hands).
Yep, bows don't have the 'one shot per turn' issue that crossbows do. If you want to make multiple attacks at range, get a bow. If it's a modern game, is your DM using firearms?
As for your cantrip, casting it is the [Tooltip Not Found] action and not the Attack action, so you can only do it once and you cannot make a weapon attack in the same turn, unless you Action Surge. That is, until you get to level 7, when you can cast a cantrip and use a bonus action to make a weapon attack.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Firearms are a thing in this setting, however I was going with EK for the ability to make my fighter more versatile through the use of magic. Equiping vials of paralasys, poison, or a variety of trick arrows would let me make the class more versatile. This is the reason I was avoiding the idea of using a Gun. To original and idk how you would add a toxin of some sort into a bullet.
In addition to what has been said, bows do not have the loading property. You'd be able to attack as many times as you could with your longsword without the support of a feat. The crossbows typically have a better damage die than their bow counterpart and fighters to get more ASIs than most classes. Do consider what was mentioned about strength vs dexterity and the corresponding thrown weapons vs bows. If your dexterity isn't high (rolling low on initiative could be an indicator of that), strength might be better. Depending on what cantrips you have and your intelligence score, casting an attack cantrip might be better, too.
Either way, you'll want to consider your positioning in regards to your target as well. Even your allies can provide cover for your target, increasing the targets AC. Sharpshooter feat would eliminate that concern for bows for the most part, while Spell Sniper is the equivalent for spells (and adds an attack cantrip to boot).
If the rest of your party is always trying to get up in the mix, you may wish to change things up and multiclass into a support role. Cleric or Wizard are the most likely that you'll be able to get into, but bard is also a great option if your charisma is high enough.
For those saying that loading is part of the action:
Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
Crossbows have loading and therefore can only be shot once per turn without crossbow expert. You could still make attacks with your melee weapon with the rest of your extra attacks/possible bonus actions otherwise.
Finally, you can't cast spells with your extra attacks. Casting a spell uses the Cast a spell action whereas extra attacks require the Attack action. You could cast a spell, action surge, and then take the Attack action, but you can't take the Attack action to make one attack and cast a spell that isn't a bonus action spell. If your cantrip Mind Sliver takes an action to cast, you wouldn't be able to cast it and Attack in the same turn without Action Surge.
Firearms are a thing in this setting, however I was going with EK for the ability to make my fighter more versatile through the use of magic. Equiping vials of paralasys, poison, or a variety of trick arrows would let me make the class more versatile. This is the reason I was avoiding the idea of using a Gun. To original and idk how you would add a toxin of some sort into a bullet.
You don’t need to spend a bonus action to reload a crossbow. Loading it is part of the action you take to fire it. You can fire it twice with your two actions from action surge and still have your bonus action left over to do whatever with.
But only if you have Crossbow Expert, because of the loading property.
Not quite true. The loading property means you can only make a single attack per action. If you have two actions, you get two attacks. It is a good point to bring up in the context of fighters, since fighters are hurt more than any other class by the loading property, but the OP didn't mention anything about Extra Attack, only Action Surge. [EDIT] OP did actually mention Extra Attack, haha. So yeah, Crossbow Expert is required to use Extra Attack with the crossbow but is not required to get two attacks out of two actions with Action Surge.
My Dex and Str are actually identical. Because of this I was thinking of putting 2 levels into Rogue. We have a Rogue in our group so this would let me use thieves can't to communicate with her secretly during a conversation with a target we are currently talking with through the use of the coded words that get added into normal speech (Lets me help guide this new player on the kind of thing I may need them to do or what my actual plan is, ect). On top of that, the sneak attack effect would tie into the ranged weapons since they are dex weapons. It would let me switch back and forth between back line sharpshooter, front line sword fighter, and backup support with a few spells like Mind Sliver to make it harder for them to succeed on saving throws, ect. Basically me trying to get the most of a character by being able to do a bit of everything to fill any role we need on the fly without intentionally minmaxing my character.
I'd seriously consider going dex instead of strength and using a rapier instead of a longsword if you go rogue. Get the sneak attack on all of your weapon attacks.
I'd seriously consider going dex instead of strength and using a rapier instead of a longsword if you go rogue. Get the sneak attack on all of your weapon attacks.
I actually picked up a scimitar off a thug. Shows as being a finesse weapon so there is that. Until I take the point in Rogue though I will be sticking with the longsword due to the higher hit dice. D8 vs D6.
I don't blame you one bit. It is only a difference of 1 average point of damage, but that adds up over time. I'd still consider putting ASIs that aren't going into feats into dex though. It does sound like an interesting dynamic to have to consider.
Another Unique question in relation to the bow and its counterparts. The crossbow shows as having a range of 80-320 ft which it shares with the short bow and the long bow shows as having a range of 150-600 ft. Is there a problem with shooting either inside of this lower range? Say I decided to use one at a distance of 20 ft. As mentioned, we are in a modern day setting and big battlefields are not something we have a lot of.
The only problem with shooting a ranged weapon in the short-range bracket is if an enemy is in melee range with you (regardless of whether you're targetting them or someone else) because they harry you and stop you being able to aim properly and you get Disadvantage. Attacking someone in the long-range bracket is also disadvantage. Attacking someone prone is also disadvantage.
If you have Crossbow Expert feat it removes the enemy in melee range disadvantage.
So when looking to get a bow to negate the loading property of the Crossbow, I should really just go with a LongBow if I can afford it given the longer minimum normal range of 150 ft? Means there is no real reason to take the ShortBow? Why would anyone take the ShortBow then?
The main reasons for taking a Shortbow over a Longbow is 1) because the Longbow is heavy so Short races get Disadvantage using it and 2) that Shortbow is a simple weapon whereas Longbow is a martial weapon and so some characters won't have proficiency in it.
There are ways to get around the long-distance disadvantage. The Sharpshooter feat is the primary way.
So when looking to get a bow to negate the loading property of the Crossbow, I should really just go with a LongBow if I can afford it given the longer minimum normal range of 150 ft? Means there is no real reason to take the ShortBow? Why would anyone take the ShortBow then?
Characters without proficiency in longbows, namely the Rogue. Rogues don't get proficiency in all weapons like fighters or some of the other Martial classes, and thus are limited to shortbows unless they can gain proficiency in longbows through other means (Racial features, Feats, Multiclassing).
Replying to both Emmber and TigerApricot here. So being a Changeling Fighter this isn't actually a problem then. I can just go with the longbow and be set due to class and race size? If so, Awesome.
Going with the idea of still taking a point in Rogue when I'm able, would I still get the Sneak Attack Bonus using the Longbow or would this require the ShortBow Specifically? As I understand it, Ranged Weapons require the Dex property to be able to use and that is required for the Sneak Attack. So my understanding is that the Long Bow can still Sneak Attack. Right?
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Currently a bit confused with how the Crossbow works in relation to combat. My character is an Eldritch knight lvl 3. I chose fighter because I thought my party was going to have other magic casters on it, but everyone just sort of charges the enemy. We are in a modern day type setting, so a lot of our fights wind up in back alleys and similar locations. This means that space to move around is limited. If I roll low on Initiative (Which has happened a few times already) everyone charges and surrounds the target we are fighting, leaving me with no way to get to them. This leaves me standing at the back where we started, looking at the mass of people in front of me, then at my longsword, then back at the mass of people in front of me and asking myself "How am I supposed to use this now?" It has been rather entertaining, but does put me in a strategic problem of "How the fk do I fight now?"
Luckily I have a crossbow. Unluckily I don't know how the reload mechanic and firing it works in relation to combat with the fighter. This is what I need help with.
Currently I have the Action Surge ability, which lets me gain an additional action for my turn. As I understand it, this would let me use Action to Fire, Bonus Action to Reload, Action Surge to Fire, and ends my turn. Meaning I have to reload before the next attack. I'm pretty sure I got that right, but confirm for me as I'm still a noob.
When I hit lvl 5 I will get the Extra Attack option when fighting which, as I understand it, would let me fire the crossbow twice. Since it still needs a bonus action to reload the weapon, it seems like this would eliminate most of my damage output ability.
Playing an Eldritch Knight so I need to figure out how spell casting would work in relation to the extra attack as well. I have a spell called Mind Sliver (Cantrip) Can I attack with it twice and use my bonus action to reload the crossbow? So Shoot, Reload, Mind Sliver? Or if I put a poison on the bolts that requires a saving throw before the battle, Mind Sliver, Shoot, Reload. How would this work?
Finally, I hadn't heard much about bows and needing to reload. Do they have this mechanic or is the act of drawing an arrow and shooting it all classified as an action? In which case (Since we are in a modern day setting) Would it be more beneficial for me to invest in a bow of some sort with some unique arrows and quiver and just be a magic hawk eye relying on a tech bow and some magic tricks as my gimmicks to take the most advantage of the situations? (Currently have spells like Mind Sliver, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Absorb Elements, Shield, Find Familiar [Hawk from Assassins Creed concept], Burning Hands).
Most of my group, including the DM are new to the game, so I want to have a solid understanding of this to take some of the weight off the DM's shoulders.
all Crossbows have the Loading which states "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
I'm not sure where you got the bonus action interaction with crossbows, but that is not the case in 5e, if that's something your DM allows then you'll need to ask them your question to get a better/more accurate response. If you're wanting to use a crossbow with extra attacks and Action Surge then I would look at using an ASI to pick up the feat Crossbow Expert. This removes the Loading property from crossbows and would let you attack with a crossbow as many attacks as you could make in a turn just like a longsword.
All that being said I would actually consider Handaxes or Javelins if your main weapon is a Longsword. Longswords use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls, and Crossbows use Dexterity. Thrown weapons use Strength, but typically have a shorter range and obviously once you've thrown your weapon you need to pick it back up or have a second weapon to throw before you could attack again. A few Handaxes on your person at all time and you should be fine for a round or 2 of combat until you can get into the fray. Also losing a Handaxe isn't typically a huge deal since they're only 5gp to replace.
Check out my latest homebrew: Mystic Knight (Fighter) v1.31
You don’t need to spend a bonus action to reload a crossbow. Loading it is part of the action you take to fire it. You can fire it twice with your two actions from action surge and still have your bonus action left over to do whatever with.
But only if you have Crossbow Expert, because of the loading property.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So when I hit level 5 will I still only be able to fire the crossbow once even though the class lets me attack twice? The crossbow description makes it sound like that is how it works. Good to know that it doesn't actually require the bonus action to load it though. We thought that is what that meant.
Yep, bows don't have the 'one shot per turn' issue that crossbows do. If you want to make multiple attacks at range, get a bow. If it's a modern game, is your DM using firearms?
As for your cantrip, casting it is the [Tooltip Not Found] action and not the Attack action, so you can only do it once and you cannot make a weapon attack in the same turn, unless you Action Surge. That is, until you get to level 7, when you can cast a cantrip and use a bonus action to make a weapon attack.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Firearms are a thing in this setting, however I was going with EK for the ability to make my fighter more versatile through the use of magic. Equiping vials of paralasys, poison, or a variety of trick arrows would let me make the class more versatile. This is the reason I was avoiding the idea of using a Gun. To original and idk how you would add a toxin of some sort into a bullet.
In addition to what has been said, bows do not have the loading property. You'd be able to attack as many times as you could with your longsword without the support of a feat. The crossbows typically have a better damage die than their bow counterpart and fighters to get more ASIs than most classes. Do consider what was mentioned about strength vs dexterity and the corresponding thrown weapons vs bows. If your dexterity isn't high (rolling low on initiative could be an indicator of that), strength might be better. Depending on what cantrips you have and your intelligence score, casting an attack cantrip might be better, too.
Either way, you'll want to consider your positioning in regards to your target as well. Even your allies can provide cover for your target, increasing the targets AC. Sharpshooter feat would eliminate that concern for bows for the most part, while Spell Sniper is the equivalent for spells (and adds an attack cantrip to boot).
If the rest of your party is always trying to get up in the mix, you may wish to change things up and multiclass into a support role. Cleric or Wizard are the most likely that you'll be able to get into, but bard is also a great option if your charisma is high enough.
For those saying that loading is part of the action:
Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
Crossbows have loading and therefore can only be shot once per turn without crossbow expert. You could still make attacks with your melee weapon with the rest of your extra attacks/possible bonus actions otherwise.
Finally, you can't cast spells with your extra attacks. Casting a spell uses the Cast a spell action whereas extra attacks require the Attack action. You could cast a spell, action surge, and then take the Attack action, but you can't take the Attack action to make one attack and cast a spell that isn't a bonus action spell. If your cantrip Mind Sliver takes an action to cast, you wouldn't be able to cast it and Attack in the same turn without Action Surge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquillizer_gun
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Not quite true. The loading property means you can only make a single attack per action. If you have two actions, you get two attacks. It is a good point to bring up in the context of fighters, since fighters are hurt more than any other class by the loading property, but the OP didn't mention anything about Extra Attack, only Action Surge. [EDIT] OP did actually mention Extra Attack, haha. So yeah, Crossbow Expert is required to use Extra Attack with the crossbow but is not required to get two attacks out of two actions with Action Surge.
My Dex and Str are actually identical. Because of this I was thinking of putting 2 levels into Rogue. We have a Rogue in our group so this would let me use thieves can't to communicate with her secretly during a conversation with a target we are currently talking with through the use of the coded words that get added into normal speech (Lets me help guide this new player on the kind of thing I may need them to do or what my actual plan is, ect). On top of that, the sneak attack effect would tie into the ranged weapons since they are dex weapons. It would let me switch back and forth between back line sharpshooter, front line sword fighter, and backup support with a few spells like Mind Sliver to make it harder for them to succeed on saving throws, ect. Basically me trying to get the most of a character by being able to do a bit of everything to fill any role we need on the fly without intentionally minmaxing my character.
I'd seriously consider going dex instead of strength and using a rapier instead of a longsword if you go rogue. Get the sneak attack on all of your weapon attacks.
I actually picked up a scimitar off a thug. Shows as being a finesse weapon so there is that. Until I take the point in Rogue though I will be sticking with the longsword due to the higher hit dice. D8 vs D6.
I don't blame you one bit. It is only a difference of 1 average point of damage, but that adds up over time. I'd still consider putting ASIs that aren't going into feats into dex though. It does sound like an interesting dynamic to have to consider.
Another Unique question in relation to the bow and its counterparts. The crossbow shows as having a range of 80-320 ft which it shares with the short bow and the long bow shows as having a range of 150-600 ft. Is there a problem with shooting either inside of this lower range? Say I decided to use one at a distance of 20 ft. As mentioned, we are in a modern day setting and big battlefields are not something we have a lot of.
The only problem with shooting a ranged weapon in the short-range bracket is if an enemy is in melee range with you (regardless of whether you're targetting them or someone else) because they harry you and stop you being able to aim properly and you get Disadvantage. Attacking someone in the long-range bracket is also disadvantage. Attacking someone prone is also disadvantage.
If you have Crossbow Expert feat it removes the enemy in melee range disadvantage.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
So when looking to get a bow to negate the loading property of the Crossbow, I should really just go with a LongBow if I can afford it given the longer minimum normal range of 150 ft? Means there is no real reason to take the ShortBow? Why would anyone take the ShortBow then?
The main reasons for taking a Shortbow over a Longbow is 1) because the Longbow is heavy so Short races get Disadvantage using it and 2) that Shortbow is a simple weapon whereas Longbow is a martial weapon and so some characters won't have proficiency in it.
There are ways to get around the long-distance disadvantage. The Sharpshooter feat is the primary way.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Characters without proficiency in longbows, namely the Rogue. Rogues don't get proficiency in all weapons like fighters or some of the other Martial classes, and thus are limited to shortbows unless they can gain proficiency in longbows through other means (Racial features, Feats, Multiclassing).
Check out my latest homebrew: Mystic Knight (Fighter) v1.31
Replying to both Emmber and TigerApricot here. So being a Changeling Fighter this isn't actually a problem then. I can just go with the longbow and be set due to class and race size? If so, Awesome.
Going with the idea of still taking a point in Rogue when I'm able, would I still get the Sneak Attack Bonus using the Longbow or would this require the ShortBow Specifically? As I understand it, Ranged Weapons require the Dex property to be able to use and that is required for the Sneak Attack. So my understanding is that the Long Bow can still Sneak Attack. Right?