Two spells, two targets, one casting. Are you trying to say twins are the same people? ;-)
Now I'm fascinated. At your table, does counterspell negate a twinned spell or only half of it?
Well since you would be counterspelling the spell, not its Twin, neither would happen. (BTW, Same and Twin are synonyms, Same and "to be" are not) If you put ANY synonym for same; identical, twin, clone, duplicate, like, equal, double, etc. it becomes even more clear.)
@SagaTympana one can only see a person, when comparing people you can realize you saw the same person, meaning the descriptions/perceptions are virtually identical or indistinguishable.
So the problem with the actual words used comes with Concentration... Can't Concentrate on two spells at once...
We do know that if one Twins Polymorph, they do not need to change both targets to the same creature.
We do know that Dispel Magic would only work on one target, as each instance is unique.
So the words say one thing (two spells, one casting), the mechanics say another (only Concentrate on one spell at a time and a failed concentration check would result in spell ending on both), and the resolution implies independence. (Dispel Magic on one Polymorphed creature would not end it for the other creature.) Another example would be a Twinned Witchbolt spell, if one creature moves out of range, the spell would not end on the creature which remained within range, however, if the caster used an action for anything else, the spell ends for both targets.
The language of the twinned spell feature is very clear. It’s still just one spell, just with 2 targets instead of 1...
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
There is nothing there about duplicating the spell, just adding an additional target
The language of the twinned spell feature is very clear. It’s still just one spell, just with 2 targets instead of 1...
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
There is nothing there about duplicating the spell, just adding an additional target
No, see, when it says "the same spell," it actually means a different one.
One way to look at Maze could be that you're sending both targets to the same place and they lead each other out. If one makes the save then clearly the other one did too because they followed the one that succeeded. Heck they could even Help each other in that instance.
Two spells, two targets, one casting. Are you trying to say twins are the same people? ;-)
You are actually the one arguing that twins (two different people with the same description) are the same person. Everyone else is arguing that 1 person refered to twice is the same person.
One way to look at Maze could be that you're sending both targets to the same place and they lead each other out. If one makes the save then clearly the other one did too because they followed the one that succeeded. Heck they could even Help each other in that instance.
Help does not apply to saves.
That's true, but Maze doesn't call for a save. It's a straight Intelligence check.
One way to look at Maze could be that you're sending both targets to the same place and they lead each other out. If one makes the save then clearly the other one did too because they followed the one that succeeded. Heck they could even Help each other in that instance.
Help does not apply to saves.
That's true, but Maze doesn't call for a save. It's a straight Intelligence check.
Oh! So it is.
Spells that stop working when you realize they are spells is weird to me.
One way to look at Maze could be that you're sending both targets to the same place and they lead each other out. If one makes the save then clearly the other one did too because they followed the one that succeeded. Heck they could even Help each other in that instance.
Help does not apply to saves.
That's true, but Maze doesn't call for a save. It's a straight Intelligence check.
Oh! So it is.
Spells that stop working when you realize they are spells is weird to me.
It sounds more like they are figuring out how the maze works, and turning any mechanics there-in to their advantage to facilitate their escape. Say the labyrinth takes on the form of a shifting pyramid. Passing the INT check would be deciphering the pattern on which it reconfigures to reach the exit portal.
The language of the twinned spell feature is very clear. It’s still just one spell, just with 2 targets instead of 1...
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
There is nothing there about duplicating the spell, just adding an additional target
So the problem with the actual words used comes with Concentration... Can't Concentrate on two spells at once...
We do know that if one Twins Polymorph, they do not need to change both targets to the same creature.
We do know that Dispel Magic would only work on one target, as each instance is unique.
So the words say one thing (two spells, one casting), the mechanics say another (only Concentrate on one spell at a time and a failed concentration check would result in spell ending on both), and the resolution implies independence. (Dispel Magic on one Polymorphed creature would not end it for the other creature.) Another example would be a Twinned Witchbolt spell, if one creature moves out of range, the spell would not end on the creature which remained within range, however, if the caster used an action for anything else, the spell ends for both targets.
The problem with your premise that it's two different spells instead of the sorcerer being able to affect the weave to have one spell affect two targets is at least one of the following: 1 action 1 spell, there is no such thing as extra spell like there is extra attack (at least not that I recall); 1 spell slot 1 spell, there are some instances where you can burn multiple spell slots on one spell (typically involving paladins and smite or sorcerers burning a spell to get SP to use on a spell that they'll cast that round) but no instances where you can cast two spells with one spell slot that doesn't involve casting a cantrip (which then requires either Action Surge or a bonus action); or bonus action casting, due to the rule that states that you can only cast a cantrip if you've cast a spell with a casting time of a bonus action, you wouldn't be able to twin a bonus action spell (like Healing Word) if it were two spells. It would have to have a specific call out that a bonus action spell could be cast using twinned spell since the bonus action rule is already a specific rule addendum to the general rules of spellcasting.
However, having twinned spell add an additional target to the spell as opposed to another adding another spell doesn't cause problems with any of these.
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Well since you would be counterspelling the spell, not its Twin, neither would happen. (BTW, Same and Twin are synonyms, Same and "to be" are not) If you put ANY synonym for same; identical, twin, clone, duplicate, like, equal, double, etc. it becomes even more clear.)
@SagaTympana one can only see a person, when comparing people you can realize you saw the same person, meaning the descriptions/perceptions are virtually identical or indistinguishable.
Twin literally means a pair, double, two.
So the problem with the actual words used comes with Concentration... Can't Concentrate on two spells at once...
We do know that if one Twins Polymorph, they do not need to change both targets to the same creature.
We do know that Dispel Magic would only work on one target, as each instance is unique.
So the words say one thing (two spells, one casting), the mechanics say another (only Concentrate on one spell at a time and a failed concentration check would result in spell ending on both), and the resolution implies independence. (Dispel Magic on one Polymorphed creature would not end it for the other creature.) Another example would be a Twinned Witchbolt spell, if one creature moves out of range, the spell would not end on the creature which remained within range, however, if the caster used an action for anything else, the spell ends for both targets.
It may be time to throw in the towel on this one, Pedro. In review, we have:
None of these conundrums are a problem if a twinned spell is a single spell cast on two different targets.
Which it is.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The language of the twinned spell feature is very clear. It’s still just one spell, just with 2 targets instead of 1...
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
There is nothing there about duplicating the spell, just adding an additional target
No, see, when it says "the same spell," it actually means a different one.
I'm not going to get involved in the whole "same means different" discussion. But:
If it is cast at level 1 (and therefore "incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level"), it can be twinned.
Help does not apply to saves.
You are actually the one arguing that twins (two different people with the same description) are the same person. Everyone else is arguing that 1 person refered to twice is the same person.
That's true, but Maze doesn't call for a save. It's a straight Intelligence check.
Clearly someone cast Maze on this thread....
Oh! So it is.
Spells that stop working when you realize they are spells is weird to me.
It sounds more like they are figuring out how the maze works, and turning any mechanics there-in to their advantage to facilitate their escape. Say the labyrinth takes on the form of a shifting pyramid. Passing the INT check would be deciphering the pattern on which it reconfigures to reach the exit portal.
Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner.
That last sentence is what's going on.
The problem with your premise that it's two different spells instead of the sorcerer being able to affect the weave to have one spell affect two targets is at least one of the following: 1 action 1 spell, there is no such thing as extra spell like there is extra attack (at least not that I recall); 1 spell slot 1 spell, there are some instances where you can burn multiple spell slots on one spell (typically involving paladins and smite or sorcerers burning a spell to get SP to use on a spell that they'll cast that round) but no instances where you can cast two spells with one spell slot that doesn't involve casting a cantrip (which then requires either Action Surge or a bonus action); or bonus action casting, due to the rule that states that you can only cast a cantrip if you've cast a spell with a casting time of a bonus action, you wouldn't be able to twin a bonus action spell (like Healing Word) if it were two spells. It would have to have a specific call out that a bonus action spell could be cast using twinned spell since the bonus action rule is already a specific rule addendum to the general rules of spellcasting.
However, having twinned spell add an additional target to the spell as opposed to another adding another spell doesn't cause problems with any of these.