Okay, so I'm building a battlemaster fighter that uses both a repeating heavy crossbow and a wrist-mounted hand crossbow actively in combat. She'll be entering the Eberron campaign at level 4 as a special operative type of ambusher. The Crossbow Expert feat allows for a lot of fluidity with crossbow combat, but how far could I push it?
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
With the last clause in mind, it says that I can use a bonus action to make one attack with a hand crossbow I am holding as long as I attack with a one-handed weapon. By level 5, I can make two attacks. Is it reasonable to say that if I attack once with a heavy crossbow and once with the hand crossbow, then I use a bonus action to follow up with another hand crossbow attack? I would still use a one-handed weapon with one of my attacks, after all. I want to work within the parameters of the ruling since my DM runs most rulings as RAW.
This assumes that your setup still leaves you with a hand free for loading the crossbows. If you are holding a two handed crossbow in one hand, you don't have a hand free to load the hand crossbow unless it is on the same arm as the one holding the heavy crossbow. Otherwise, I don't see how you would be able to load the wrist mounted hand crossbow with the same hand it is mounted on. However, trying to hold a heavy crossbow in one hand and aim a wrist mounted hand crossbow in the same hand that is holding the heavy crossbow sounds a bit challenging.
The Xbow expert feat removes the loading property issues with crossbows that restrict their fire to 1 time/round but it doesn't do anything about the ammunition property which requires a free hand available to load the weapon.
Usually when using crossbow expert, folks just fire the hand crossbow three times and have the other hand free for loading the crossbow. In your case, you want to use a heavy crossbow which requires two hands and then follow up with a hand crossbow but then, it seems to me, that you would run into loading issues.
Finally, the difference between firing a heavy crossbow once and a hand crossbow twice vs firing a hand crossbow three times is a total of TWO damage points on average. You'd probably be better off with ... if they are at long range, fire the heavy crossbow twice, if they are close enough then fire the hand crossbow three times. If you also have sharpshooter then the normal range for a hand crossbow is 120' which is often more than adequate.
The heavy crossbow is repeating (my assumption is that OP means the repeating shot artificer infusion), so no ammunition property there, and the hand crossbow is "wrist-mounted," which is homebrew, but my assumption there is that the hand is still free.
The heavy crossbow is repeating (my assumption is that OP means the repeating shot artificer infusion), so no ammunition property there, and the hand crossbow is "wrist-mounted," which is homebrew, but my assumption there is that the hand is still free.
The hand may be free but you'd have to be a contortionist to use the same hand where the hand crossbow is mounted in order to load it ... but the DM may be lenient who knows.
As a DM, I wouldn't allow the hand the crossbow is mounted on to be used for loading the wrist mounted hand crossbow on the same wrist ... but that is just me.
There's no indication that OP is planning on loading the hand crossbow with the hand it's mounted to. I wouldn't allow a wrist-mounted hand crossbow at all, haha. But it occurs to me that this entire discussion is highly speculative, since we don't know the details of the homebrew in play XD
I would say "No, that breaks the spirit of the rule." I'd say the same for two-weapon fighting and other rules.
I read "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." as requiring the prerequisite for the whole duration of the Attack action. For part of the Attack action you were not holding the hand crossbow (because you were firing a heavy crossbow) so you have not satistifed the prerequsite.
Then again, the "wrist-mounted" part of the original question invalidates half the combat rules, because in 5E there are no "zero handed" weapons.
I would say "No, that breaks the spirit of the rule." I'd say the same for two-weapon fighting and other rules.
I read "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." as requiring the prerequisite for the whole duration of the Attack action. For part of the Attack action you were not holding the hand crossbow (because you were firing a heavy crossbow) so you have not satistifed the prerequsite.
Then again, the "wrist-mounted" part of the original question invalidates half the combat rules, because in 5E there are no "zero handed" weapons.
The spirit of the rule definitely does not require that the condition hold for the entire Attack action. There's any number of circumstances in which such a requirement would be unworkable. Say your one-handed weapon is a pistol, for example. I have two attacks with my attack action. I fire the pistol, then fire the hand crossbow with my bonus action, and then for some reason I want to punch someone. I drop the pistol and make my unarmed strike. That is allowed by the rules, and it is intended to be allowed, but an unarmed strike isn't a one-handed weapon, so if your addendum to the rules were followed, I would be unable to do this.
The one-handed versus "zero-handed" is an interesting point however, and it's one reason I wouldn't allow the wrist-mounted thing to begin with. Or, if I did, it would explicitly not be a "hand" crossbow anymore, so Crossbow Expert wouldn't be relevant to its function.
That's rules lawyering at the highest level, and as a DM I would reply in kind by saying, no, the wrist mounted crossbow is not a hand crossbow, nor is it a one handed weapon therefore none of the conditions required to make the bonus action attack have been achieved. I'd be willing to allow the wrist mounted crossbow be a re-skinned hand crossbow, up until the point that shenanigans like "I fire a heavy crossbow with my first shot then..." No. No you won't. 3 shots with the d6 hand xbow...sure. 2 shots with a hand xbow and one with a d10 weapon...absolutely not. I'm not going to bite on your reskin on such a blatant power grab.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'd allow it. It's obviously not an issue except for the most stringent (dickish) of rules lawyers, and even then you check all the nessacary boxes and I see no issues RAW. While your at it take leatherworkers tools and afix a shoulder sling to your heavy crossbow and call it a day. As a real world rifle guy lugging around a rifle all day gets tiring trust me.
As for the rules lawyers dont mind them so much.
The only person you need to ask is your DM...and with that said if a DM disallows something that is RAW it's something you'd also have to deal with. Nature of the beast.
The spirit of the rule definitely does not require that the condition hold for the entire Attack action.
The spirt of the rule I am talking about is to prevent "my character has extra attack, they atack once with a greataxe then they drop the greataxe and attack a second time with a dagger, then they use a bonus action to attack with another dagger using two-weapon fighting because they are hgolding two daggers, then they drop the dagger and get the duelling bonus because they are only holding one weapon" shenanigans.
Heavy crossbow is 2 handed weapon... cannot use the hand crossbow as bonus action as it states you must be using a one handed weapon.
Heavy Crossbow
ranged weapon (martial, crossbow
Category: Items
Damage: 1d10
Damage Type: Piercing
Item Rarity: Standard
Properties: Heavy, Loading, Range, Two-Handed
Range: 100/400
Weight: 18
POSSIBLY if both repeating.
He's suggesting that he'll make the first shot with with the 2h xbow, then the second shot (after he can multi-attack) with a hand xbow (which doesn't use a hand since it's strapped to his wrist, but somehow counting as a 1h weapon) then a third shot with the hand xbow that's strapped to his wrist. Not a chance in hell I would let that fly.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Wouldn't work with a heavy crossbow since it's 2 handed. I believe the works with a one handed weapon and a one handed crossbow. The feat description even says hand crossbow.
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Okay, so I'm building a battlemaster fighter that uses both a repeating heavy crossbow and a wrist-mounted hand crossbow actively in combat. She'll be entering the Eberron campaign at level 4 as a special operative type of ambusher. The Crossbow Expert feat allows for a lot of fluidity with crossbow combat, but how far could I push it?
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
With the last clause in mind, it says that I can use a bonus action to make one attack with a hand crossbow I am holding as long as I attack with a one-handed weapon. By level 5, I can make two attacks. Is it reasonable to say that if I attack once with a heavy crossbow and once with the hand crossbow, then I use a bonus action to follow up with another hand crossbow attack? I would still use a one-handed weapon with one of my attacks, after all. I want to work within the parameters of the ruling since my DM runs most rulings as RAW.
RAW yes, I think that satisfies the clause. I would allow it.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Agreed, looks like RAW to me.
Yep, that’s totally fine.
This assumes that your setup still leaves you with a hand free for loading the crossbows. If you are holding a two handed crossbow in one hand, you don't have a hand free to load the hand crossbow unless it is on the same arm as the one holding the heavy crossbow. Otherwise, I don't see how you would be able to load the wrist mounted hand crossbow with the same hand it is mounted on. However, trying to hold a heavy crossbow in one hand and aim a wrist mounted hand crossbow in the same hand that is holding the heavy crossbow sounds a bit challenging.
The Xbow expert feat removes the loading property issues with crossbows that restrict their fire to 1 time/round but it doesn't do anything about the ammunition property which requires a free hand available to load the weapon.
Usually when using crossbow expert, folks just fire the hand crossbow three times and have the other hand free for loading the crossbow. In your case, you want to use a heavy crossbow which requires two hands and then follow up with a hand crossbow but then, it seems to me, that you would run into loading issues.
Finally, the difference between firing a heavy crossbow once and a hand crossbow twice vs firing a hand crossbow three times is a total of TWO damage points on average. You'd probably be better off with ... if they are at long range, fire the heavy crossbow twice, if they are close enough then fire the hand crossbow three times. If you also have sharpshooter then the normal range for a hand crossbow is 120' which is often more than adequate.
The heavy crossbow is repeating (my assumption is that OP means the repeating shot artificer infusion), so no ammunition property there, and the hand crossbow is "wrist-mounted," which is homebrew, but my assumption there is that the hand is still free.
The hand may be free but you'd have to be a contortionist to use the same hand where the hand crossbow is mounted in order to load it ... but the DM may be lenient who knows.
As a DM, I wouldn't allow the hand the crossbow is mounted on to be used for loading the wrist mounted hand crossbow on the same wrist ... but that is just me.
What if it were the other way around, with the wrist crossbow being repeating?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
There's no indication that OP is planning on loading the hand crossbow with the hand it's mounted to. I wouldn't allow a wrist-mounted hand crossbow at all, haha. But it occurs to me that this entire discussion is highly speculative, since we don't know the details of the homebrew in play XD
Repeating Shot on the Heavy Crossbow
Repeating Shot on the Hand Crossbow
I would say "No, that breaks the spirit of the rule." I'd say the same for two-weapon fighting and other rules.
I read "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." as requiring the prerequisite for the whole duration of the Attack action. For part of the Attack action you were not holding the hand crossbow (because you were firing a heavy crossbow) so you have not satistifed the prerequsite.
Then again, the "wrist-mounted" part of the original question invalidates half the combat rules, because in 5E there are no "zero handed" weapons.
This question is better asked in the Homebrew & House Rules forum.
The spirit of the rule definitely does not require that the condition hold for the entire Attack action. There's any number of circumstances in which such a requirement would be unworkable. Say your one-handed weapon is a pistol, for example. I have two attacks with my attack action. I fire the pistol, then fire the hand crossbow with my bonus action, and then for some reason I want to punch someone. I drop the pistol and make my unarmed strike. That is allowed by the rules, and it is intended to be allowed, but an unarmed strike isn't a one-handed weapon, so if your addendum to the rules were followed, I would be unable to do this.
The one-handed versus "zero-handed" is an interesting point however, and it's one reason I wouldn't allow the wrist-mounted thing to begin with. Or, if I did, it would explicitly not be a "hand" crossbow anymore, so Crossbow Expert wouldn't be relevant to its function.
That's rules lawyering at the highest level, and as a DM I would reply in kind by saying, no, the wrist mounted crossbow is not a hand crossbow, nor is it a one handed weapon therefore none of the conditions required to make the bonus action attack have been achieved. I'd be willing to allow the wrist mounted crossbow be a re-skinned hand crossbow, up until the point that shenanigans like "I fire a heavy crossbow with my first shot then..." No. No you won't. 3 shots with the d6 hand xbow...sure. 2 shots with a hand xbow and one with a d10 weapon...absolutely not. I'm not going to bite on your reskin on such a blatant power grab.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'd allow it. It's obviously not an issue except for the most stringent (dickish) of rules lawyers, and even then you check all the nessacary boxes and I see no issues RAW. While your at it take leatherworkers tools and afix a shoulder sling to your heavy crossbow and call it a day. As a real world rifle guy lugging around a rifle all day gets tiring trust me.
As for the rules lawyers dont mind them so much.
The only person you need to ask is your DM...and with that said if a DM disallows something that is RAW it's something you'd also have to deal with. Nature of the beast.
Heavy crossbow is 2 handed weapon... cannot use the hand crossbow as bonus action as it states you must be using a one handed weapon.
Heavy Crossbow
POSSIBLY if both repeating.
The spirt of the rule I am talking about is to prevent "my character has extra attack, they atack once with a greataxe then they drop the greataxe and attack a second time with a dagger, then they use a bonus action to attack with another dagger using two-weapon fighting because they are hgolding two daggers, then they drop the dagger and get the duelling bonus because they are only holding one weapon" shenanigans.
He's suggesting that he'll make the first shot with with the 2h xbow, then the second shot (after he can multi-attack) with a hand xbow (which doesn't use a hand since it's strapped to his wrist, but somehow counting as a 1h weapon) then a third shot with the hand xbow that's strapped to his wrist. Not a chance in hell I would let that fly.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Wouldn't work with a heavy crossbow since it's 2 handed. I believe the works with a one handed weapon and a one handed crossbow. The feat description even says hand crossbow.