I tried to use the Search function to see if this had been posted before. I also did several Google searches to get clarifications, and I think I understand surprise better now. But I wanted to ask about a specific scenario and hear if, RAW and RAI, you folks think this works.
Assume a Half-Orc with point-buy stats 17, 15, 16, 8, 8, 8. Five levels of Barbarian (Berserker), 3 levels of Rogue (Assassin). His Barbarian 4 ASI went to Feat: Great Weapon Master. He has Expertise in Athletics and Stealth.
Our half-orc, sneaking ahead of the party (far enough ahead that his opponents can't hear/see the party in any way), spots a couple of bandits sitting around a campfire. The half-orc successfully sneaks up to them and attacks with his greataxe. Assuming he beats both of them on initiative, each bandit is surprised until the end of their respective turns.
So, then. Half-orc rages (bonus action) and uses GWM to take -5 to attack for +10 damage with his greataxe (no action). He makes an attack with advantage (assassinate) on the first bandit. If he hits, the hit is an automatic crit (assassinate). He rolls 3d12 (crit+savage attacks) + 30 (3 STR, +2 Rage, +10 GWM, all x2). He can also still move and make his extra attack on the second bandit, with similar results.
Not game-breaking numbers, necessarily. And extremely situational. I'm just interested to hear any arguments against why that would not work.
Are you doubling the str mod, rage, and GWM damage because of the crit? If so, that's incorrect. You only double the damage dice (hence 1d12 doubled to 2d12 + Savage attacks 1d12=3d12 you've got that) but it should be only +15. Otherwise, it seems like you have it right based on your stated assumptions.
Depending on how far back the rest of the party is, it might be prudent to forgo GWM for the higher hit% unless you feel like you could take the extra damage if you missed (auto crits would give you 13 average damage. While advantage can help make up for the -5, missing an auto crit because of that differential on the better roll would be devastating). Any mop up duty could be done with reckless attacks and GWM to get the static damage and hopefully bonus action triggers for any round 2+ crits or kills (assuming you haven't gone in a frenzy).
Edit: Actual stat block bandits wouldn't be a big deal either way, but something with better AC, more HP, and better attacks could prove deadly. This is especially true if your Half-Orc didn't mark the 2 other bandits, the hedge mage, and their pet wolf on the way in.
Yeah make sure not to double the modifying damage, you only double the dice. As powerful as it seems it’s just a single burst of damage and after that extra 2d12 once per combat the 3 levels of rouge don’t really do much for a raging strength barbarian. Also keep in mind all that exhaustion from rage if you are having more then one combat per day this adds up very quick, and it takes a long rest to lose 1 level of it. Lastly if the barbarian has one level of exhaustion it will have disadvantage on ability checks which includes initiative (confirmed) which lowers the opportunity for the free critical.
Yeah make sure not to double the modifying damage, you only double the dice. As powerful as it seems it’s just a single burst of damage and after that extra 2d12 once per combat the 3 levels of rouge don’t really do much for a raging strength barbarian. Also keep in mind all that exhaustion from rage if you are having more then one combat per day this adds up very quick, and it takes a long rest to lose 1 level of it. Lastly if the barbarian has one level of exhaustion it will have disadvantage on ability checks which includes initiative (confirmed) which lowers the opportunity for the free critical.
Rage doesn't induce exhaustion, going into a frenzy does. That isn't an every rage thing (but is part of the reason I didn't consider berserker for my barbarian I'm playing. Maybe I'll try it another time, but...)
Yeah make sure not to double the modifying damage, you only double the dice. As powerful as it seems it’s just a single burst of damage and after that extra 2d12 once per combat the 3 levels of rouge don’t really do much for a raging strength barbarian. Also keep in mind all that exhaustion from rage if you are having more then one combat per day this adds up very quick, and it takes a long rest to lose 1 level of it. Lastly if the barbarian has one level of exhaustion it will have disadvantage on ability checks which includes initiative (confirmed) which lowers the opportunity for the free critical.
Rage doesn't induce exhaustion, going into a frenzy does. That isn't an every rage thing (but is part of the reason I didn't consider berserker for my barbarian I'm playing. Maybe I'll try it another time, but...)
That’s true but if you don’t you miss out on an extra attack each round.
Yeah make sure not to double the modifying damage, you only double the dice. As powerful as it seems it’s just a single burst of damage and after that extra 2d12 once per combat the 3 levels of rouge don’t really do much for a raging strength barbarian. Also keep in mind all that exhaustion from rage if you are having more then one combat per day this adds up very quick, and it takes a long rest to lose 1 level of it. Lastly if the barbarian has one level of exhaustion it will have disadvantage on ability checks which includes initiative (confirmed) which lowers the opportunity for the free critical.
Rage doesn't induce exhaustion, going into a frenzy does. That isn't an every rage thing (but is part of the reason I didn't consider berserker for my barbarian I'm playing. Maybe I'll try it another time, but...)
That’s true but if you don’t you miss out on an extra attack each round.
Depends on what you have. GWM does allow for a bonus action attack on a Crit or a kill. PAM and two weapon fighting both allow for the extra attack at lower damages levels. It's all dependent on what you're willing to deal with. Of course, frenzy is a significant part of the berserker subclass for quite a few levels and going for those other options somewhat limits the effectiveness of choosing berserker (and part of the reason that I didn't want to go berserker).
Once you get to higher levels, you might gains access to spells or other means to reduce an exhaustion level other than a long rest. Getting the second and third levels of exhaustion severely limit your combat effectiveness, though.
I totally agree. Another point is with 17 str and a +3 prof is +6 to hit but when you use GWM it goes to a +1 to hit which at level 8 means some monsters will only be possible to hit with a nat 20.
That was something that I thought about after my post but I touched on when saying that they might want to forgo the -5, at least on the first round. It's different if you've got your party with you, especially if you've got a healer, but going solo it's better to get the damage in as frequently as you can.
I'm currently dual wielding hand axes with my half-orc barbarian. I'm planning on switching to my greataxe soon, but getting two chances to hit each round (four with reckless attacks) means I'm at last getting some damage in. My wife is playing just to spend time with me and the group and the other two players now have two sessions under their belts, so that means consistent damage is better than no damage. I was leaning bear totem at 3, but I think I've settled on zealot instead (a great rp reason came up for going that way in the first session, that was once I wasn't considering much prior because of the diety aspect). It's going to be different at 8 with the different options available and extra attack does limit the added value of the bonus action attack some, but it's still an option that's better used than not.
I only skimmed the thread, but nobody mentioned your sneak attack dice. If you have advantage on the attack, you should have an extra 2d6 for your sneak attack which the crit doubles to 4d6. So the total should be 3d12 + 4d6 + 15.
I only skimmed the thread, but nobody mentioned your sneak attack dice. If you have advantage on the attack, you should have an extra 2d6 for your sneak attack which the crit doubles to 4d6. So the total should be 3d12 + 4d6 + 15.
Greataxe isn't a finesse or ranged weapon so no sneak attack damage. Change the greataxe to a rapier and that works, but changes the math to 3d8+4d6+5 using strength but no GWM for rapier.
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Good afternoon,
I tried to use the Search function to see if this had been posted before. I also did several Google searches to get clarifications, and I think I understand surprise better now. But I wanted to ask about a specific scenario and hear if, RAW and RAI, you folks think this works.
Assume a Half-Orc with point-buy stats 17, 15, 16, 8, 8, 8. Five levels of Barbarian (Berserker), 3 levels of Rogue (Assassin). His Barbarian 4 ASI went to Feat: Great Weapon Master. He has Expertise in Athletics and Stealth.
Our half-orc, sneaking ahead of the party (far enough ahead that his opponents can't hear/see the party in any way), spots a couple of bandits sitting around a campfire. The half-orc successfully sneaks up to them and attacks with his greataxe. Assuming he beats both of them on initiative, each bandit is surprised until the end of their respective turns.
So, then. Half-orc rages (bonus action) and uses GWM to take -5 to attack for +10 damage with his greataxe (no action). He makes an attack with advantage (assassinate) on the first bandit. If he hits, the hit is an automatic crit (assassinate). He rolls 3d12 (crit+savage attacks) + 30 (3 STR, +2 Rage, +10 GWM, all x2). He can also still move and make his extra attack on the second bandit, with similar results.
Not game-breaking numbers, necessarily. And extremely situational. I'm just interested to hear any arguments against why that would not work.
Thanks for your time!
Are you doubling the str mod, rage, and GWM damage because of the crit? If so, that's incorrect. You only double the damage dice (hence 1d12 doubled to 2d12 + Savage attacks 1d12=3d12 you've got that) but it should be only +15. Otherwise, it seems like you have it right based on your stated assumptions.
Depending on how far back the rest of the party is, it might be prudent to forgo GWM for the higher hit% unless you feel like you could take the extra damage if you missed (auto crits would give you 13 average damage. While advantage can help make up for the -5, missing an auto crit because of that differential on the better roll would be devastating). Any mop up duty could be done with reckless attacks and GWM to get the static damage and hopefully bonus action triggers for any round 2+ crits or kills (assuming you haven't gone in a frenzy).
Edit: Actual stat block bandits wouldn't be a big deal either way, but something with better AC, more HP, and better attacks could prove deadly. This is especially true if your Half-Orc didn't mark the 2 other bandits, the hedge mage, and their pet wolf on the way in.
Yeah make sure not to double the modifying damage, you only double the dice. As powerful as it seems it’s just a single burst of damage and after that extra 2d12 once per combat the 3 levels of rouge don’t really do much for a raging strength barbarian. Also keep in mind all that exhaustion from rage if you are having more then one combat per day this adds up very quick, and it takes a long rest to lose 1 level of it. Lastly if the barbarian has one level of exhaustion it will have disadvantage on ability checks which includes initiative (confirmed) which lowers the opportunity for the free critical.
Rage doesn't induce exhaustion, going into a frenzy does. That isn't an every rage thing (but is part of the reason I didn't consider berserker for my barbarian I'm playing. Maybe I'll try it another time, but...)
That’s true but if you don’t you miss out on an extra attack each round.
Depends on what you have. GWM does allow for a bonus action attack on a Crit or a kill. PAM and two weapon fighting both allow for the extra attack at lower damages levels. It's all dependent on what you're willing to deal with. Of course, frenzy is a significant part of the berserker subclass for quite a few levels and going for those other options somewhat limits the effectiveness of choosing berserker (and part of the reason that I didn't want to go berserker).
Once you get to higher levels, you might gains access to spells or other means to reduce an exhaustion level other than a long rest. Getting the second and third levels of exhaustion severely limit your combat effectiveness, though.
I totally agree. Another point is with 17 str and a +3 prof is +6 to hit but when you use GWM it goes to a +1 to hit which at level 8 means some monsters will only be possible to hit with a nat 20.
That was something that I thought about after my post but I touched on when saying that they might want to forgo the -5, at least on the first round. It's different if you've got your party with you, especially if you've got a healer, but going solo it's better to get the damage in as frequently as you can.
I'm currently dual wielding hand axes with my half-orc barbarian. I'm planning on switching to my greataxe soon, but getting two chances to hit each round (four with reckless attacks) means I'm at last getting some damage in. My wife is playing just to spend time with me and the group and the other two players now have two sessions under their belts, so that means consistent damage is better than no damage. I was leaning bear totem at 3, but I think I've settled on zealot instead (a great rp reason came up for going that way in the first session, that was once I wasn't considering much prior because of the diety aspect). It's going to be different at 8 with the different options available and extra attack does limit the added value of the bonus action attack some, but it's still an option that's better used than not.
I only skimmed the thread, but nobody mentioned your sneak attack dice. If you have advantage on the attack, you should have an extra 2d6 for your sneak attack which the crit doubles to 4d6. So the total should be 3d12 + 4d6 + 15.
Greataxe isn't a finesse or ranged weapon so no sneak attack damage. Change the greataxe to a rapier and that works, but changes the math to 3d8+4d6+5 using strength but no GWM for rapier.