One of the most powerful ways to use Lucky is when you have Disadvantage, because it turns Disadvantage into basically Super Advantage, where you can choose the best out of three rolls to use.
Even when the DM allows this, it doesn't really break the game in any way, unlike, say, Sharpshooter. Lucky doesn't let you do anything you couldn't otherwise and while succeeding where you would've failed is nice, 3 times a day isn't a whole lot.
Oh, I agree. I don't think any of the OP's issues are broken, I just wanted to point out that Lucky is rather useful, after all.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
- sorry, this one makes me laugh - probably one of the worst feats in the game unless the DM likes to always run just one big fight/day so you can blow long rest resources as if they were short rest ... otherwise it is just a second chance that usually fails when you need it most (i.e. It is needed most on difficult saves which you are likely to fail in the first place ... but that also means that you are still likely to fail it on the Lucky re-roll. One of the least common feats in any game I have played or run. I have one character out of about 20 that took Lucky and I am still not sure why.
One of the most powerful ways to use Lucky is when you have Disadvantage, because it turns Disadvantage into basically Super Advantage, where you can choose the best out of three rolls to use.
True enough. However, most players I know work VERY hard to get advantage or at least avoid disadvantage. Lucky lets you avoid this issue 3 times per DAY. If that is game breaking then you run game days that are very different from mine or anyone else I know. Especially when folks mostly try to hang on to uses of Lucky for when it is critical to use them.
Oh ... I use lucky so I get a chance to hit the bad guy instead of miss (usually because one of the disadvantage die was already good enough .. if it wasn't there isn't much point in using Lucky unless it is REALLY important that you hit this time around). Ooops, used my last use of Lucky, ooops no chance to re-roll that con saving throw for 10d6 damage, ooops I am unconscious/dead.
Lucky is a very limited resource except in one or two encounter/day situations. As a result, it isn't likely to be used except when it could make a significant difference and even then it usually fails more often than not if it was a save you had a less than 50% chance of passing the first time.
Anyway, this is just my experience. I've seen a handful of people take Lucky, I have it on one high level character, generally there are much better options until late tier3/4 depending on the character ... and most of the time, in practice, it is a bit fun and mostly useless except when it is actually Lucky and you make a save you already failed.
P.S. That is just my experience of the feat in actual play not theory crafting ... but others may have different experiences.
In my experience the most game unbalancing elements are (which the OP surprisingly didn't mention):
- sharpshooter - combined with archery - and possibly crossbow expert - this can become an issue as early as about level 6 for a fighter or 8 in general when attack stat gets bumped and then level 9 when proficiency increases. If combined with a reliable form of advantage this can be very effective from about level 3/4 (e.g. gloomstalker in darkness). Watching a level 8 gloomstalker with sharpshooter and crossbow expert armed with a hand crossbow in darkness is a sight to behold in terms of raw single target damage. It doesn't "break" the game but the DM has to include additional targets since they go down so quickly.
- great weapon master - less of an issue than sharpshooter since it is missing the benefit of something like the archery fighting style. The -5 to hit is a significant deterrent up until late tier 2 EXCEPT for characters that can easily generate advantage - barbarians with reckless attack and hexblade warlocks with darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil to start with.
These both kick in to high gear in tier 3/4 where these builds shine for single target damage with the one exception of high AC targets where the -5 can still be a significant consideration (however, in tier 3/4 this usually means AC significantly over 20 due to max attack stat and increasing proficiency).
It doesn't "break" the game but requires the DM to take it in to consideration when balancing encounters. However, the characters have increased damage output not defense ... so increasing level of encounter difficulty can go sideways if these characters have a bit of a run of bad luck.
----
At lower levels :
- polearm master and crossbow expert - both give a crucial bonus action attack through tier 1 which can effectively almost double the damage output of these tier1 characters. They also have good scondary abilities - op attack on enemy approaching, point blank range use that are also useful.
After level 5 with extra attack these fall to a less than 1/3 increase in martial effectiveness and continue to drop off so they are mostly a tier 1 concern in my experience. However, this is also usually only for variant humans who can get them at level 1. Everyone else is level 4 before the first feat becomes available.
----
Variant human with the first level feat doesn't break anything but does allow for somwhat more powerful tier 1 characters using either of the above feats. None of the rest of the feats are really an issue and sharpshooter/GWM in tier 1 is usually a waste unless faced with some really low AC targets.
----
In my play experience, those are about it for elements that are a bit unbalanced. Polearm master/xbow expert on variant human in tier 1 and sharpshooter/GWM in tier 3/4 and in some cases later tier 2.
P.S. In some ways sharpshooter/GWM are less of an issue in tier 3/4 because casters are picking up level 6-9 spells which have some spectacular effects but are also very resource limited while SS/GWM aren't.
True enough. However, most players I know work VERY hard to get advantage or at least avoid disadvantage. Lucky lets you avoid this issue 3 times per DAY. If that is game breaking then you run game days that are very different from mine or anyone else I know.
A big part of why people dislike Lucky is that if you allow the disadvantage loophole, it effectively lets you get the equivalent of Elven Accuracy at will in absurd ways. Can't get advantage the hard way for your attack? Close your eyes and swing while blinded. If the DM tries to disincentivize that by ruling you'd have to stay blinded until your next turn, you can always drop prone before your attack.
It's still not gamebreaking but it feels really cheesy because it lets you get around working for a legitimate source of advantage and it's complete nonsense from a roleplay perspective.
In my experience the most game unbalancing elements are (which the OP surprisingly didn't mention):
- sharpshooter - combined with archery - and possibly crossbow expert
These are also in my top two worst offenders because they tick all the boxes of things I consider undesirable:
They punch well above their weight.
They produce a dominant strategy (find a source of advantage and sharpshoot the enemy to death)
They make the game less tactically interesting (now you don't have to worry about nearby enemies, or obstacles getting in the way of your shot).
They're silly from a narrative perspective (combining both feats turns the crossbow equivalent of a BB gun into a semi-automatic pistol.)
In the case of Sharpshooter, it does the exact same thing as a different feat but better. Great Weapon Master users have to actually risk getting hit and need enough movement to reach their next enemy.
I agree with the cheesy unrealistic uses of Lucky are kind of offensive but if I had a player who wanted to intentionally do that sort of thing I would either have a chat with them and then house rule when Lucky could be applied to disadvantaged rolls so that everyone was on the same page and so that Lucky did not break immersion for other players.
Alternatively, I could role play it out with the player in a manner similar to "may the force be with you", allow the usage, and hopefully the player would realize that it really isn't worth using their Luck points this way unless they are desperate. (I think most would admit that Luke's turning off the targeting system in Star Wars a New Hope in order to blow up the Death Star would amount to intentionally taking disadvantage on an attack role in order to apply the Lucky "force" feat :) ... hey, it is May 4th so I included an obligatory Star Wars reference).
One of the most powerful ways to use Lucky is when you have Disadvantage, because it turns Disadvantage into basically Super Advantage, where you can choose the best out of three rolls to use.
No it doesn't. If you, say, roll a 10 and a 5 with disadvantage, and you use lucky, you can reroll the 5. If you then roll a 15 with your luck, you can use the 15 in place of the 5 -- which means your final roll is 10, because 10 is less than 15.
No it doesn't. If you, say, roll a 10 and a 5 with disadvantage, and you use lucky, you can reroll the 5. If you then roll a 15 with your luck, you can use the 15 in place of the 5 -- which means your final roll is 10, because 10 is less than 15.
Mmm, pretty sure that's not correct, but I went and dug up the relevant rules and they are as follows:
Advantage and Disadvantage
Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage, and use the lower roll if you have disadvantage.
Notice the that is says "use" the lower of the two rolls. This will matter for the next part:
You have inexplicable luck that seems to kick in at just the right moment.
You have 3 luck points. Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.
So when you roll for something at a Disadvantage, Lucky lets you roll an additional d20, which makes three d20's. But which version of "use" takes precedence? Well to answer that I will point you to:
Specific Beats General
This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
The Lucky Feat is the more specific rule, so it takes precedence over the general Disadvantage rule. So if I were to roll at Disadvantage and get the results of 1 and 20 and then I use Lucky and roll a 10, I get to choose out of those three which one to use, meaning I can use the 20.
I tend to agree with the broken interpretation of the lucky feat, but I think there's a valid interpretation of the word "which" in the lucky feat to mean "which 2 of the 3" when you have advantage/disadvantage.
I tend to agree with the broken interpretation of the lucky feat, but I think there's a valid interpretation of the word "which" in the lucky feat to mean "which 2 of the 3" when you have advantage/disadvantage.
Ehhh, maybe? In general if you are given an indeterminate number of things and asked "which of these" to choose I think pretty much everyone would think it means which one.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I tend to agree with the broken interpretation of the lucky feat, but I think there's a valid interpretation of the word "which" in the lucky feat to mean "which 2 of the 3" when you have advantage/disadvantage.
Ehhh, maybe? In general if you are given an indeterminate number of things and asked "which of these" to choose I think pretty much everyone would think it means which one.
I agree, but that's not quite analogous to having advantage/disadvantage and being asked "which of the d20s" you would like to use. Advantage/disadvantage, by its nature, requires 2 dice.
Me and the party just completed our last session resting in Leomund's Tiny Hut. We picked up a deceased little girl of the village nearby so we were on our way to return her. Midway through the rest in said hut, the girl's corpse form changes in to a slithering mass of teeth with whip-like arms.
There are ways around things.
If anything make the weapons of warning have some kind of drawback. Bought that Axe of Paranoia off that gnome vendor? Good luck when it starts screaming "I hear something! In the shadows! Over there! Oh my goodness they appear to be on top of us!" when your party was trying to sneak around.
The Lucky Feat is the more specific rule, so it takes precedence over the general Disadvantage rule. So if I were to roll at Disadvantage and get the results of 1 and 20 and then I use Lucky and roll a 10, I get to choose out of those three which one to use, meaning I can use the 20.
The Lucky feat says 'roll the die', singular. Thus, it only applies to one other die.
How does the Lucky feat interact with advantage and disadvantage?
The Lucky feat represents extraordinary luck that can help you when you need it most. It lets you spend a luck point; roll an extra d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw; and then choose which d20 to use. This is true no matter how many d20s are in the mix. For example, if you have advantage or disadvantage on your attack roll, you could spend a luck point, roll a third d20, and then decide which of the three dice to use. You still have advantage or disadvantage, since the feat doesn’t say it negates it, but you get to pick the die. The upshot of this fact is that a rogue, for instance, who has disadvantage on an attack roll couldn’t use Sneak Attack even if the rogue uses the Lucky feat to pick the die.
The Lucky feat is a great example of an exception to a general rule. The general rule in this case is the one that tells us how advantage and disadvantage work. The specific rule is the Lucky feat, and we know that a specific rule trumps a general rule if they conflict with each other.
If a DM wants advantage and disadvantage to play their normal roles even when the Lucky feat is used, here’s a way to do so: roll two d20s for advantage/disadvantage, roll a third d20 for Lucky, eliminate one of the three dice, and then use the higher (for advantage) or lower (for disadvantage) of the two dice that remain.
So this is how it works according to the devs, though they do provide an alternative for those who don't like it. It doesn't technically negate Disadvantage, which interferes with things like sneak attack, but it does let you choose the best of three rolls.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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Oh, I agree. I don't think any of the OP's issues are broken, I just wanted to point out that Lucky is rather useful, after all.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
True enough. However, most players I know work VERY hard to get advantage or at least avoid disadvantage. Lucky lets you avoid this issue 3 times per DAY. If that is game breaking then you run game days that are very different from mine or anyone else I know. Especially when folks mostly try to hang on to uses of Lucky for when it is critical to use them.
Oh ... I use lucky so I get a chance to hit the bad guy instead of miss (usually because one of the disadvantage die was already good enough .. if it wasn't there isn't much point in using Lucky unless it is REALLY important that you hit this time around). Ooops, used my last use of Lucky, ooops no chance to re-roll that con saving throw for 10d6 damage, ooops I am unconscious/dead.
Lucky is a very limited resource except in one or two encounter/day situations. As a result, it isn't likely to be used except when it could make a significant difference and even then it usually fails more often than not if it was a save you had a less than 50% chance of passing the first time.
Anyway, this is just my experience. I've seen a handful of people take Lucky, I have it on one high level character, generally there are much better options until late tier3/4 depending on the character ... and most of the time, in practice, it is a bit fun and mostly useless except when it is actually Lucky and you make a save you already failed.
P.S. That is just my experience of the feat in actual play not theory crafting ... but others may have different experiences.
In my experience the most game unbalancing elements are (which the OP surprisingly didn't mention):
- sharpshooter - combined with archery - and possibly crossbow expert - this can become an issue as early as about level 6 for a fighter or 8 in general when attack stat gets bumped and then level 9 when proficiency increases. If combined with a reliable form of advantage this can be very effective from about level 3/4 (e.g. gloomstalker in darkness). Watching a level 8 gloomstalker with sharpshooter and crossbow expert armed with a hand crossbow in darkness is a sight to behold in terms of raw single target damage. It doesn't "break" the game but the DM has to include additional targets since they go down so quickly.
- great weapon master - less of an issue than sharpshooter since it is missing the benefit of something like the archery fighting style. The -5 to hit is a significant deterrent up until late tier 2 EXCEPT for characters that can easily generate advantage - barbarians with reckless attack and hexblade warlocks with darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil to start with.
These both kick in to high gear in tier 3/4 where these builds shine for single target damage with the one exception of high AC targets where the -5 can still be a significant consideration (however, in tier 3/4 this usually means AC significantly over 20 due to max attack stat and increasing proficiency).
It doesn't "break" the game but requires the DM to take it in to consideration when balancing encounters. However, the characters have increased damage output not defense ... so increasing level of encounter difficulty can go sideways if these characters have a bit of a run of bad luck.
----
At lower levels :
- polearm master and crossbow expert - both give a crucial bonus action attack through tier 1 which can effectively almost double the damage output of these tier1 characters. They also have good scondary abilities - op attack on enemy approaching, point blank range use that are also useful.
After level 5 with extra attack these fall to a less than 1/3 increase in martial effectiveness and continue to drop off so they are mostly a tier 1 concern in my experience. However, this is also usually only for variant humans who can get them at level 1. Everyone else is level 4 before the first feat becomes available.
----
Variant human with the first level feat doesn't break anything but does allow for somwhat more powerful tier 1 characters using either of the above feats. None of the rest of the feats are really an issue and sharpshooter/GWM in tier 1 is usually a waste unless faced with some really low AC targets.
----
In my play experience, those are about it for elements that are a bit unbalanced. Polearm master/xbow expert on variant human in tier 1 and sharpshooter/GWM in tier 3/4 and in some cases later tier 2.
P.S. In some ways sharpshooter/GWM are less of an issue in tier 3/4 because casters are picking up level 6-9 spells which have some spectacular effects but are also very resource limited while SS/GWM aren't.
A big part of why people dislike Lucky is that if you allow the disadvantage loophole, it effectively lets you get the equivalent of Elven Accuracy at will in absurd ways. Can't get advantage the hard way for your attack? Close your eyes and swing while blinded. If the DM tries to disincentivize that by ruling you'd have to stay blinded until your next turn, you can always drop prone before your attack.
It's still not gamebreaking but it feels really cheesy because it lets you get around working for a legitimate source of advantage and it's complete nonsense from a roleplay perspective.
These are also in my top two worst offenders because they tick all the boxes of things I consider undesirable:
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I agree with the cheesy unrealistic uses of Lucky are kind of offensive but if I had a player who wanted to intentionally do that sort of thing I would either have a chat with them and then house rule when Lucky could be applied to disadvantaged rolls so that everyone was on the same page and so that Lucky did not break immersion for other players.
Alternatively, I could role play it out with the player in a manner similar to "may the force be with you", allow the usage, and hopefully the player would realize that it really isn't worth using their Luck points this way unless they are desperate. (I think most would admit that Luke's turning off the targeting system in Star Wars a New Hope in order to blow up the Death Star would amount to intentionally taking disadvantage on an attack role in order to apply the Lucky "force" feat :) ... hey, it is May 4th so I included an obligatory Star Wars reference).
No it doesn't. If you, say, roll a 10 and a 5 with disadvantage, and you use lucky, you can reroll the 5. If you then roll a 15 with your luck, you can use the 15 in place of the 5 -- which means your final roll is 10, because 10 is less than 15.
Mmm, pretty sure that's not correct, but I went and dug up the relevant rules and they are as follows:
Notice the that is says "use" the lower of the two rolls. This will matter for the next part:
You have inexplicable luck that seems to kick in at just the right moment.
So when you roll for something at a Disadvantage, Lucky lets you roll an additional d20, which makes three d20's. But which version of "use" takes precedence? Well to answer that I will point you to:
Specific Beats General
This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
The Lucky Feat is the more specific rule, so it takes precedence over the general Disadvantage rule. So if I were to roll at Disadvantage and get the results of 1 and 20 and then I use Lucky and roll a 10, I get to choose out of those three which one to use, meaning I can use the 20.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I tend to agree with the broken interpretation of the lucky feat, but I think there's a valid interpretation of the word "which" in the lucky feat to mean "which 2 of the 3" when you have advantage/disadvantage.
Ehhh, maybe? In general if you are given an indeterminate number of things and asked "which of these" to choose I think pretty much everyone would think it means which one.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I agree, but that's not quite analogous to having advantage/disadvantage and being asked "which of the d20s" you would like to use. Advantage/disadvantage, by its nature, requires 2 dice.
Me and the party just completed our last session resting in Leomund's Tiny Hut. We picked up a deceased little girl of the village nearby so we were on our way to return her. Midway through the rest in said hut, the girl's corpse form changes in to a slithering mass of teeth with whip-like arms.
There are ways around things.
If anything make the weapons of warning have some kind of drawback. Bought that Axe of Paranoia off that gnome vendor? Good luck when it starts screaming "I hear something! In the shadows! Over there! Oh my goodness they appear to be on top of us!" when your party was trying to sneak around.
The Lucky feat says 'roll the die', singular. Thus, it only applies to one other die.
From the Sage Advice Compendium regarding Feats:
So this is how it works according to the devs, though they do provide an alternative for those who don't like it. It doesn't technically negate Disadvantage, which interferes with things like sneak attack, but it does let you choose the best of three rolls.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!