I have a question about polearm master and sentinel and range. I was 5 feet away from the a corner and a creature came around the corner. dm states creature entered my range while out of sight around corner so i don't get attack of opportunity because he entered my range when around corner and unseen. I think that I my range would be viable range someone i could actually target. Thoughts?
Yeah, your DM is right both by the rules and by common sense. Smart use of architecture on the part of the monster.
I should say it's probably actually a judgment call whether or not you can attack a creature in an adjacent square but around a corner. I personally would say no, but I can imagine a DM ruling that the target be targetable but have half cover (or maybe even three-quarters cover) instead.
I guess the bigger question is when does the attack of opportunity for entering my range trigger? does it trigger when i can actually attack or when he was within 10 feet around a corner unable to be attacked because he is 5 feet back from the corner and is untargetable.
The description of Polearm Master is very clear. The attack is triggered when a creature enters your reach. If they can use the environment to the effect that you can’t target them when they trigger that attack, you don’t get to make the attack.
I would argue that the square around the corner isn't in his reach, as he can't attack it as the GM said. When the target does come into a square he can reach, then it triggers regardless of other circumstances.
And if that's how the GM wants to roll to deny feats entirely, expect vindictive player responses "using architecture creatively".
I presume (s)he did not let you attack when the monster did come around the corner. But yeah, until it does, no attack.
Your DM made a debatable judgement call. I would agree with him because of real world physics, but see the other argument. That is, if you pop up too close to someone with a reach weapon, their reach does not help. I would claim that the monster had 100% cover until it was inside your reach, so you could not attack.
Technically, the trigger for 'enters your reach' fires at the time he's ten feet away from you -- even though he's around the corner. You are just forbidden from actually attacking when the trigger fires because (a) you can't see him, and (b) he has total cover. If you had the ability to see through walls (tremorsense, say) and a weapon that could attack through walls (some hypothetical ethereal polearm) you could get the polearm mastery hit.
Seems like a DM that's mad at the polearm/sentinel combo. Many a DM have banned that combo outright.
PAM should probably be something like "You may use a bonus action to Ready an attack against a foe that you see enter your reach", instead of having anything about opportunity attacks at all. That gets rid of the double-dip on extra attacks (you can get the butt strike or the reaction, but not both) and means it doesn't interact with other abilities that trigger off of opportunity attacks because it isn't an opportunity attack. On the other hand, it would actually be sometimes better, since it also wouldn't be bypassed by abilities that negate opportunity attacks.
I would argue that the square around the corner isn't in his reach, as he can't attack it as the GM said. When the target does come into a square he can reach, then it triggers regardless of other circumstances.
And if that's how the GM wants to roll to deny feats entirely, expect vindictive player responses "using architecture creatively".
I presume (s)he did not let you attack when the monster did come around the corner. But yeah, until it does, no attack.
This is how I see it as well. Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it.
It says "adds 5 feet to your reach", not "changes your reach". I always saw that as just extending your reach, and that your reach was basically from 0ft up until the defined reach. I'm sure the Rules Nerds can rip that all to hell, but this is just how my common sense sees it. If I'm a PAM/Sentinel and a wizard Misty Steps to 5ft or 10ft from me, I'm walloping his ass.
You can’t add 5 feet to something without changing it. 5 + 5 is 10, which you’ll note is not 5 anymore. I’m sure the philosophers can rip that all to hell, but it’s just how my common sense sees it :p
We've always considered any area you can't attack to be outside your reach, even if it is close enough to be inside. This has been less of an issue for corners for us, the more common cause is going through walls. If an enemy is going into a wall, it is leaving your reach, and thus provokes an AoO.
The main reason for this ruling is that AoO was changed in this edition to discourage running away without disengaging, letting people get around that seems like asking for future problems.
I’m sure the philosophers can rip that all to hell, but it’s just how my common sense sees it :p
That made me smile... seriously. I see "Reach" as the maximum length of your range of melee attack, not just a point... guess I should have been more clear.
Seems like a DM that's mad at the polearm/sentinel combo. Many a DM have banned that combo outright.
PAM should probably be something like "You may use a bonus action to Ready an attack against a foe that you see enter your reach", instead of having anything about opportunity attacks at all. That gets rid of the double-dip on extra attacks (you can get the butt strike or the reaction, but not both) and means it doesn't interact with other abilities that trigger off of opportunity attacks because it isn't an opportunity attack. On the other hand, it would actually be sometimes better, since it also wouldn't be bypassed by abilities that negate opportunity attacks.
This made me wonder ... can you use Polearm Master to take an opportunity attack against an invisible creature that enters your reach?
Polearm master says:
"While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or guarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach."
The general text for Opportunity Attack says:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."
Polearm master does not require you to see the target entering your reach so would you be able to use an opportunity attack against an invisible creature entering your reach? (Specific beats general). Or does polearm master just give you an additional way to trigger an opportunity attack but still requires you to be able to see your target?
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Also, keep in mind that the square grids used in D&D 5e are an approximation. Each is 5'x5'. The rules on line of sight are very generous. DMG p 251
"LINE OF SIGHT To precisely determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If at least one such line doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog-then there is line of sight."
If you are in a corridor one square away from the corner then you CAN see the first square around the corner. As a result, in the example described by the OP, the defender would see the creature around the corner and would be entitled to their opportunity attack. However, the creature would have at least 1/2 cover.
"COVER To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."
So, RAW, and assuming they were playing on a grid. The DM was incorrect to deny the opportunity attack due to polearm master because the defender can see the attacker in the square around the corner but adjacent to the corner and it is within their reach.
You could get into an argument about what exactly "enters your reach" means since the defender in this case can't see the grid boundary of the square around the corner even though they can see the square entered. The rules don't get into exactly where a creature is at the moment it "enters" or "leaves" your reach. However, since an attack can only be executed within your reach and since the creature occupies the entire square and you can't make attaks at grid boundaries since that isn't defined ... I'd personally rule that moving into and occupying the space at the reach of your weapon would constitute "entering your reach" for the purpose of triggered effects.
P.S. I described above what RAW would seem to indicate. Every DM is welcome to implement it differently but it is good to let your players know if you plan to do so ..
Just another thought on reach. (I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation but I know it has been expressed).
The rules on unarmed strikes say.
"Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes."
"Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack."
Polearm master says: "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or guarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach."
-----
An unarmed strike has a reach of 5'. A character always has the option choose to use an unarmed strike rather than a weapon attack for an opportunity attack no matter what they are holding in their hands. As a result, a character ALWAYS has a reach of 5' in addition to any other reach provided by the weapon they are holding. So a character holding a polearm could be considered to have a reach of both 5' and 10'.
Polearm master states that it triggers on a creature entering your reach. It does NOT say it triggers on creatures entering the reach of your polearm.
RAW you can always make an unarmed strike, thus you always have a weapon with a reach of 5' available. The rules do not specify that you have use the weapon with the related range that triggers an op attack all you need is a creature to enter your reach. So, if a creature enters a square 5' from a polearm master somehow bypassing the 10' square, they have entered the reach of any unarmed strike that the character would like to make, however, polearm master just says a creature entering your reach and so you can still make a polearm ooportunity attack against a creature at 5' since they entered the reach of your unarmed strike.
I would not allow it in my games as DM but RAW it appears to work.
RAW you can always make an unarmed strike, thus you always have a weapon with a reach of 5' available. The rules do not specify that you have use the weapon with the related range that triggers an op attack all you need is a creature to enter your reach. So, if a creature enters a square 5' from a polearm master somehow bypassing the 10' square, they have entered the reach of any unarmed strike that the character would like to make, however, polearm master just says a creature entering your reach and so you can still make a polearm ooportunity attack against a creature at 5' since they entered the reach of your unarmed strike.
I would not allow it in my games as DM but RAW it appears to work.
You cannot make a polearm AoO in this case, you can make an unarmed AoO triggered by polearm master.
RAW you can always make an unarmed strike, thus you always have a weapon with a reach of 5' available. The rules do not specify that you have use the weapon with the related range that triggers an op attack all you need is a creature to enter your reach. So, if a creature enters a square 5' from a polearm master somehow bypassing the 10' square, they have entered the reach of any unarmed strike that the character would like to make, however, polearm master just says a creature entering your reach and so you can still make a polearm ooportunity attack against a creature at 5' since they entered the reach of your unarmed strike.
I would not allow it in my games as DM but RAW it appears to work.
You cannot make a polearm AoO in this case, you can make an unarmed AoO triggered by polearm master.
The rules don't actually say that though it is certainly one way to rule it if you like.
Polearm master does NOT say that the triggering event has to be entering the reach of the polearm and no where in opportunity attacks does it say that you have to use the reach of the weapon triggering the attack as the weapon you attack with. The rules only discuss entering your reach and have nothing to do with the weapon or ability triggering the effect.
I have a question about polearm master and sentinel and range. I was 5 feet away from the a corner and a creature came around the corner. dm states creature entered my range while out of sight around corner so i don't get attack of opportunity because he entered my range when around corner and unseen. I think that I my range would be viable range someone i could actually target. Thoughts?
Yeah, your DM is right both by the rules and by common sense. Smart use of architecture on the part of the monster.
I should say it's probably actually a judgment call whether or not you can attack a creature in an adjacent square but around a corner. I personally would say no, but I can imagine a DM ruling that the target be targetable but have half cover (or maybe even three-quarters cover) instead.
I guess the bigger question is when does the attack of opportunity for entering my range trigger? does it trigger when i can actually attack or when he was within 10 feet around a corner unable to be attacked because he is 5 feet back from the corner and is untargetable.
The description of Polearm Master is very clear. The attack is triggered when a creature enters your reach. If they can use the environment to the effect that you can’t target them when they trigger that attack, you don’t get to make the attack.
DM note to self: Have enemies attack the fighter from around corners.
I would argue that the square around the corner isn't in his reach, as he can't attack it as the GM said. When the target does come into a square he can reach, then it triggers regardless of other circumstances.
And if that's how the GM wants to roll to deny feats entirely, expect vindictive player responses "using architecture creatively".
I presume (s)he did not let you attack when the monster did come around the corner. But yeah, until it does, no attack.
Your DM made a debatable judgement call. I would agree with him because of real world physics, but see the other argument. That is, if you pop up too close to someone with a reach weapon, their reach does not help. I would claim that the monster had 100% cover until it was inside your reach, so you could not attack.
Technically, the trigger for 'enters your reach' fires at the time he's ten feet away from you -- even though he's around the corner. You are just forbidden from actually attacking when the trigger fires because (a) you can't see him, and (b) he has total cover. If you had the ability to see through walls (tremorsense, say) and a weapon that could attack through walls (some hypothetical ethereal polearm) you could get the polearm mastery hit.
Seems like a DM that's mad at the polearm/sentinel combo. Many a DM have banned that combo outright.
PAM should probably be something like "You may use a bonus action to Ready an attack against a foe that you see enter your reach", instead of having anything about opportunity attacks at all. That gets rid of the double-dip on extra attacks (you can get the butt strike or the reaction, but not both) and means it doesn't interact with other abilities that trigger off of opportunity attacks because it isn't an opportunity attack. On the other hand, it would actually be sometimes better, since it also wouldn't be bypassed by abilities that negate opportunity attacks.
This is how I see it as well.
Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it.
It says "adds 5 feet to your reach", not "changes your reach". I always saw that as just extending your reach, and that your reach was basically from 0ft up until the defined reach. I'm sure the Rules Nerds can rip that all to hell, but this is just how my common sense sees it. If I'm a PAM/Sentinel and a wizard Misty Steps to 5ft or 10ft from me, I'm walloping his ass.
...cryptographic randomness!
You can’t add 5 feet to something without changing it. 5 + 5 is 10, which you’ll note is not 5 anymore. I’m sure the philosophers can rip that all to hell, but it’s just how my common sense sees it :p
We've always considered any area you can't attack to be outside your reach, even if it is close enough to be inside. This has been less of an issue for corners for us, the more common cause is going through walls. If an enemy is going into a wall, it is leaving your reach, and thus provokes an AoO.
The main reason for this ruling is that AoO was changed in this edition to discourage running away without disengaging, letting people get around that seems like asking for future problems.
That made me smile... seriously.
I see "Reach" as the maximum length of your range of melee attack, not just a point... guess I should have been more clear.
...cryptographic randomness!
This made me wonder ... can you use Polearm Master to take an opportunity attack against an invisible creature that enters your reach?
Polearm master says:
"While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or guarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach."
The general text for Opportunity Attack says:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."
Polearm master does not require you to see the target entering your reach so would you be able to use an opportunity attack against an invisible creature entering your reach? (Specific beats general). Or does polearm master just give you an additional way to trigger an opportunity attack but still requires you to be able to see your target?
-----
Also, keep in mind that the square grids used in D&D 5e are an approximation. Each is 5'x5'. The rules on line of sight are very generous. DMG p 251
"LINE OF SIGHT
To precisely determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If at least one such line doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog-then there is line of sight."
If you are in a corridor one square away from the corner then you CAN see the first square around the corner. As a result, in the example described by the OP, the defender would see the creature around the corner and would be entitled to their opportunity attack. However, the creature would have at least 1/2 cover.
"COVER
To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover. If three or four of those lines are blocked but the attack can still reach the target (such as when the target is behind an arrow slit), the target has three-quarters cover."
So, RAW, and assuming they were playing on a grid. The DM was incorrect to deny the opportunity attack due to polearm master because the defender can see the attacker in the square around the corner but adjacent to the corner and it is within their reach.
You could get into an argument about what exactly "enters your reach" means since the defender in this case can't see the grid boundary of the square around the corner even though they can see the square entered. The rules don't get into exactly where a creature is at the moment it "enters" or "leaves" your reach. However, since an attack can only be executed within your reach and since the creature occupies the entire square and you can't make attaks at grid boundaries since that isn't defined ... I'd personally rule that moving into and occupying the space at the reach of your weapon would constitute "entering your reach" for the purpose of triggered effects.
P.S. I described above what RAW would seem to indicate. Every DM is welcome to implement it differently but it is good to let your players know if you plan to do so ..
Just another thought on reach. (I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation but I know it has been expressed).
The rules on unarmed strikes say.
"Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes."
"Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack."
Polearm master says: "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or guarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach."
-----
An unarmed strike has a reach of 5'. A character always has the option choose to use an unarmed strike rather than a weapon attack for an opportunity attack no matter what they are holding in their hands. As a result, a character ALWAYS has a reach of 5' in addition to any other reach provided by the weapon they are holding. So a character holding a polearm could be considered to have a reach of both 5' and 10'.
Polearm master states that it triggers on a creature entering your reach. It does NOT say it triggers on creatures entering the reach of your polearm.
RAW you can always make an unarmed strike, thus you always have a weapon with a reach of 5' available. The rules do not specify that you have use the weapon with the related range that triggers an op attack all you need is a creature to enter your reach. So, if a creature enters a square 5' from a polearm master somehow bypassing the 10' square, they have entered the reach of any unarmed strike that the character would like to make, however, polearm master just says a creature entering your reach and so you can still make a polearm ooportunity attack against a creature at 5' since they entered the reach of your unarmed strike.
I would not allow it in my games as DM but RAW it appears to work.
You cannot make a polearm AoO in this case, you can make an unarmed AoO triggered by polearm master.
The rules don't actually say that though it is certainly one way to rule it if you like.
Polearm master does NOT say that the triggering event has to be entering the reach of the polearm and no where in opportunity attacks does it say that you have to use the reach of the weapon triggering the attack as the weapon you attack with. The rules only discuss entering your reach and have nothing to do with the weapon or ability triggering the effect.
Also, you can attack with a polearm at maximum effect at 5'. So if they do manage to go unseen at 10', but get seen at 5', that's when they provoke.
Polearms had a limitation in previous editions of not being able to do so. 5e, reach weapons don't have that penalty.
No, turning visible within reach is not entering reach. Either they provoke at 10' (while invisible), or they don't provoke at all.