Say you had a Phase Spider that didn't want to pop back out until it had "advantage" on it's next turn. How would you rule it hiding in the Ethereal Plane.
Personally, since they're unseen, they should be able to hide. And since they're unable to be detected without special senses, they should succeed without a check. But what about when it pops back into existence? Does it gain unseen attacker automatically?
By the book it is almost impossible to be unseen in melee without being invisible. If you've house ruled that melee attacks can be unseen if the attacker was hidden at some point earlier in the turn, then being hidden on another plane would count. If you do this, you still need a stealth roll though as it should get checked against everyone's passive perception when they return to the material plane.
I see nothing wrong with hiding in a melee combat if there are things like tables or columns. Using another plane is similar.
But Lunali is correct, you DEFINITELY need a Stealth vs perception check. And if they have readied an attack, it is an active perception check, not passive.
By the book, hiding and making a melee attack requires something that you can hide behind and still make an attack, (or darkness/invis) while this is occasionally possible, it isn't something that happens all the time. Another plane wouldn't fill this condition since you would be on the material plane at the time of the attack. Of course, this changes if you're using house rules to make hidden melee practical.
Hiding in combat is vs passive perception unless someone uses their action. This is probably for the best as I find that a single d20 is random enough.
There is no direct rule that you need something to hide behind. That is an interpretation of the rules, and as you pointed out (by mentioning darkness/invisibility), it is not accurate.
The actual rule in question is:
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
That is the rule in the it. Nothing else. It is found in page 194, Chapter 9 of the PHB. If you are on another plane, you temporarily are unseen. You have to come to the plane before you make the attack, but that is no different from normal cover. I have to come out from under the table/behind the pillar to make the actual attack. The question is can you do so without being seen before you make the attack which is what the Stealth check is all about.
I have dealt with this exact situation before with a phase spider. You brought up two points:
If it's in the ethereal plane, then it is absolutely out of sight and therefore can hide from people in the material plane without going behind cover. The exception to this is if another creature can see into the ethereal plane, such as with see invisibility.
If it uses its bonus action to pop back into the material plane and then immediately uses its action to attack, I would definitely consider it as being an unseen attacker the same way I would let a rogue hide as a bonus action and then fire a crossbow. I would not let the spider pop back in and then close the distance to the target then bite it while unseen just as I wouldn't let a rogue step out from behind cover, approach a target, and then try to stab it while unseen.
So, does this mean they also hide successfully automatically since they cannot be detected at all without special senses? And when they pop back in, just roll stealth vs perception to see if they're seen or unseen just before their attack?
Like how people said that a rogue can still move out of cover and sneak up on a guard with a successful stealth, then a spider can pop out of the ethereal plane and benefit only if they can beat the passive perception. I think that's a pretty fun ruling, too, though I wonder how my players would handle it.
I'm suggesting that if you are on the ethereal plane, you are de facto hidden. You cannot be perceived by someone on the material plane unless they have something that specifically allows them to do so. Furthermore,. you can see them, even though they cannot see you. I would suggest that the game designers built the ethereal jaunt feature as a bonus action for the purpose of letting the phase spider get the drop on an unsuspecting target.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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Say you had a Phase Spider that didn't want to pop back out until it had "advantage" on it's next turn. How would you rule it hiding in the Ethereal Plane.
Personally, since they're unseen, they should be able to hide. And since they're unable to be detected without special senses, they should succeed without a check. But what about when it pops back into existence? Does it gain unseen attacker automatically?
By the book it is almost impossible to be unseen in melee without being invisible. If you've house ruled that melee attacks can be unseen if the attacker was hidden at some point earlier in the turn, then being hidden on another plane would count. If you do this, you still need a stealth roll though as it should get checked against everyone's passive perception when they return to the material plane.
I see nothing wrong with hiding in a melee combat if there are things like tables or columns. Using another plane is similar.
But Lunali is correct, you DEFINITELY need a Stealth vs perception check. And if they have readied an attack, it is an active perception check, not passive.
By the book, hiding and making a melee attack requires something that you can hide behind and still make an attack, (or darkness/invis) while this is occasionally possible, it isn't something that happens all the time. Another plane wouldn't fill this condition since you would be on the material plane at the time of the attack. Of course, this changes if you're using house rules to make hidden melee practical.
Hiding in combat is vs passive perception unless someone uses their action. This is probably for the best as I find that a single d20 is random enough.
There is no direct rule that you need something to hide behind. That is an interpretation of the rules, and as you pointed out (by mentioning darkness/invisibility), it is not accurate.
The actual rule in question is:
That is the rule in the it. Nothing else. It is found in page 194, Chapter 9 of the PHB. If you are on another plane, you temporarily are unseen. You have to come to the plane before you make the attack, but that is no different from normal cover. I have to come out from under the table/behind the pillar to make the actual attack. The question is can you do so without being seen before you make the attack which is what the Stealth check is all about.
I have dealt with this exact situation before with a phase spider. You brought up two points:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So, does this mean they also hide successfully automatically since they cannot be detected at all without special senses? And when they pop back in, just roll stealth vs perception to see if they're seen or unseen just before their attack?
Like how people said that a rogue can still move out of cover and sneak up on a guard with a successful stealth, then a spider can pop out of the ethereal plane and benefit only if they can beat the passive perception. I think that's a pretty fun ruling, too, though I wonder how my players would handle it.
I'm suggesting that if you are on the ethereal plane, you are de facto hidden. You cannot be perceived by someone on the material plane unless they have something that specifically allows them to do so. Furthermore,. you can see them, even though they cannot see you. I would suggest that the game designers built the ethereal jaunt feature as a bonus action for the purpose of letting the phase spider get the drop on an unsuspecting target.
"Not all those who wander are lost"