The situation in which your players are trying to analyze a magic door, I don't even think Identify directly applies. There's a subtle difference between a magic item and an item that is magical. This is not a Door of Jamming found in X book on pg YZ and here are the stats.
Rather, I would say the situation calls more for Detect Magic, where players can ascertain the school of magic the door is imbued with that might hint at its function, but doesn't give them the whole picture.
You can apply special rules for identifying items as you see fit. I usually do this with special items or McGuffins that have a reason for being vague, Identity gives basic information, but require a Legend Lore spell to fully flesh out the information on the item. This requires some investment from the players if they truly want to go through the trouble of learning about the item due to the cost and availability of the spell, which they usually do and turns into a roleplay possibility for the players.
The identify spell tells you what magic properties the object has and how to use them. If a magic shield required a command word to change into an axe then you will learn: that it can change into an axe if you say the right command word. It doesn't tell you what the command word is, however. For that you'd use Legend Lore.
In terms of a magic object the Identify spell does absolutely nothing differently than what you could learn during a short rest. The only benefit of using Identify is to save some time.
The only thing identify can do a short rest cannot is learn what spells are affecting the target - with exception of curses.
To the Original Poster and his Egg issue:
Dragons Eggs, regardless of substance or material, are not objects. They're creatures. Identify has no effect.
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So I’ll try to give an example of why this spell is upsetting me, hopefully none of my players read this. If you are, look away now. The example I’m going to give is not the reason I made this post but it should hopefully make my point.
I’m going to have my players, at some point in the current adventure, come across a large gem that is pulsing an orange glow. It will actually be a dragon egg belonging to a new/undiscovered type of dragon (Gem Dragons - sapphire, jade, ruby, etc. that I’m going to homebrew with only slight differences to normal dragons, neutral alignments, etc..). It will appear to be just a regular ol “gem” that they can get a daily boon from, and I have no problem offering that info as part of the identify spell and how to use it, and that’s what I’ll do in this particular case. But if I Abided exactly by what the spell does I’d have to tell them it’s actually a dragon egg.
Actually, what they'd learn from casting identify on it is:
It isn't a magical item.
It was not created by a spell.
It is not currently under the effects of any spells (unless it is).
Even if it was a magic item, identify only identifies the magical properties (thus, identify is totally useless on a gun, and would not reveal that a magic item was made from a dragon's egg, even if it was). It also requires being in continuous contact with the item for a minute, which can be hazardous for a cursed item or trap.
Does granting boons make it magical? I do not know this.
If it is magical and considered an object, does being able to hatch count as a property of the object? Identify does not say it reveals only magical properties.
EDIT: How does one interpret "you learn its properties and how to use them" if the property cannot be something a creature can use? Does it show the creature inside using any of the properties such as crawling out of the shell?
Is the shell granting the boon? Is the creature inside considered a second item?
So many questions but also so many ways to evade the Identify spell from revealing too much.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
ok the dragon egg is a bad example. And people are missing the point, it's not about the actual egg it's about the implications of having to give away too much of the narrative for little to no cost, whether it was my bad example of an egg or an actual item to which the spell actually does apply. However it is good to know that yes, an egg i'd say constitutes as a creature, so problem solved in that regard, thank you. But what about for magical items that are not creatures to which it would apply that could end up giving away narrative or story elements? But anyway, I think I've gathered enough information from this thread to get an idea how I'll handle it moving forward and will discuss it with the player controlling the Wizard.
You can apply special rules for identifying items as you see fit. I usually do this with special items or McGuffins that have a reason for being vague, Identity gives basic information, but require a Legend Lore spell to fully flesh out the information on the item. This requires some investment from the players if they truly want to go through the trouble of learning about the item due to the cost and availability of the spell, which they usually do and turns into a roleplay possibility for the players.
Yes, this is more what I'm talking about. And I think what I'll say to the player controlling the wizard is that the identify spell will only reveal official D&D magic and not really the stuff I make up, or something like that.
The general intent of the Identify spell is so you can go "Yep, this is a +1 sword" and not have to worry too much about figuring it out -- in fact, you can do the same thing by spending a short rest handling the item. It's certainly fair to have esoteric, hidden, or historical properties not be revealed. It's also possible Arcanist's Magic Aura can deceive Identify.
So I’ll try to give an example of why this spell is upsetting me, hopefully none of my players read this. If you are, look away now. The example I’m going to give is not the reason I made this post but it should hopefully make my point.
I’m going to have my players, at some point in the current adventure, come across a large gem that is pulsing an orange glow. It will actually be a dragon egg belonging to a new/undiscovered type of dragon (Gem Dragons - sapphire, jade, ruby, etc. that I’m going to homebrew with only slight differences to normal dragons, neutral alignments, etc..). It will appear to be just a regular ol “gem” that they can get a daily boon from, and I have no problem offering that info as part of the identify spell and how to use it, and that’s what I’ll do in this particular case. But if I Abided exactly by what the spell does I’d have to tell them it’s actually a dragon egg and ruin the surprise of them finding out naturally when either it hatches, or people/dragons start coming after it, they’d have nothing to speculate about as they carry this mystery item around the world that they’ll have no idea will eventually be world-changing, no mystery no wonder...It’s going to start a story arc where chromatic and metallic dragons start fighting over which side it belongs to, blah blah...
the actual item that spurred this post is a little more difficult to explain in regards to our current adventure but hopefully I made a decent point. And also it’s not like I’d be withholding information they NEED.
and I have a simple idea for a magical door, just cast ANY spell on it and it opens, funny enough casting identify on it would actually open the door. But once again, hopefully made my point...woo, good job you figured it out without having to do anything at all, or roll a single die, or even use a spell slot cuz ritual....yaaaaaaay.....
In this case I don't think you have a problem. Identify will give them the magic properties of the item in terms of what it can do for them. It doesn't tell them WHY it does that.
"You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them. whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting the item and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it. If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it."
Is a dragon egg a magic item? Not necessarily. It is an egg. It can grow into a creature. Creatures aren't magic items. Identify specifically states that it reveals what spells might be affecting the creature if cast on a creature.
Identify also reveals the properties of the item and how to use them. I generally interpret this to be magical properties of the item and what you need to do to make it work. It may not necessarily give the character the command word but it would let them know there is one (DM call).
However, if a dragon egg has a secondary magical ability that could be used by the players then casting identify would tell them about that property and how they could use it. It doesn't tell the characters WHY that magic item has that magical property. Identify doesn't tell you how the item was made, it tells you what it can do. In this case, the players would find out about the boon but identify would not tell them it was a dragon egg because it isn't a magical property of the item. Identify tells you what an item does, it doesn't tell you what it is.
In this case, I think the players would learn the magical property and how to use it but not that the item is a dragon egg since that isn't relevant to the function.
Further :) ... its a DM call as to whether a dragon egg could even be considered a magical item at all. Identify might not work at all which would mystify the players :)
You can apply special rules for identifying items as you see fit. I usually do this with special items or McGuffins that have a reason for being vague, Identity gives basic information, but require a Legend Lore spell to fully flesh out the information on the item. This requires some investment from the players if they truly want to go through the trouble of learning about the item due to the cost and availability of the spell, which they usually do and turns into a roleplay possibility for the players.
Yes, this is more what I'm talking about. And I think what I'll say to the player controlling the wizard is that the identify spell will only reveal official D&D magic and not really the stuff I make up, or something like that.
Eh, I don't really think that's a particularly good compromise, because in most games there isn't a hard line between "official D&D magic" and "stuff the DM makes up". Everything is up to the DM anyway.
I think treating it on a more case-by-case basis for MacGuffins and plot-related items is actually a better approach than trying to make up a general rule which isn't that good. I think it's fine to just modify the things you want to be a mystery in such a way that Identify won't work - it'll just add a layer of mystery to the object, and it won't feel like you're messing with the players, since it's just a low-level ritual. Dragon Egg - creature, not object. Magic item - any extra stuff could be a curse. Or maybe the item in question isn't magical by itself, but activates some ancient magic when something else happens. Or Nystul's Magic Aura is protecting it.
A DM has plenty of tools to make specific items more challenging to work with.
The nice thing about Legend Lore is that it relies on legends existing - must have legendary importance. The DM gets to control exactly what is known about something if the object is homebrew. If nobody knows something specific, it's not required to be revealed. Yet if one person knows it or there's some buried tome in the middle of a desert with information, Legend Lore could reveal it. Yet again, the lore could be in prose and allegory. As long as it's not an existing item with a source IRL, the DM is in charge. It's a great storytelling gimmick when balanced between storytelling and actually being useful.
...but we are referring to Identify. Great for storytelling but requires a different way of thinking to apply it as such. If a player has or may gain Identify, the DM must prepare the important bits of the campaign to sidestep it while not letting players feel scammed.
(Reminds me of a Speak with Animals spell that excised a huge chunk of a session 0 campaign because the animal was what they were seeking. The DM keeps bringing up that campaign when generating hooks for the players. A well-dressed man will approach the characters and ask for help, saying his son might be the rat he's holding - even though the original session 0, the noble refused to accept that the rat was his son until the end when they turned him back into a boy.)
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
...but we are referring to Identify. Great for storytelling but requires a different way of thinking to apply it as such. If a player has or may gain Identify, the DM must prepare the important bits of the campaign to sidestep it while not letting players feel scammed.
yeah I don’t want to just be like “nope! Doesn’t do anything” so guess I’ll just have to prepare written descriptions to my liking that are also satisfactory to the person casting the spell on certain...unique objects.
if it helps, an egg is arguable a creature, in which case identify wouldnt work, which would give the players a whole bunch of interestign questions as to why a reliable spell wouldnt work. you hint at the nature and dont reveal it
You're the DM. Identify does what you bloody well say it does.
Matt Mercer straight up nope'd an Identify spell cast on his crazy-ass legendary MacGuffin in Campaign 2 of Critical Role. The wizard cast Identify, earned a headache for his trouble and the information "this item is powerful in a way you've never felt before. Ancient, unknowable, and well beyond the capabilities of a simple ritual."
It was great. Really drove home how intense this item was, without spoiling anything other than what they mostly already knew - this thing is not to be treated lightly. So do stuff like that. Certain items are too old, too eldritch, or just too freakin' powerful to be easily read by a basic first-level ritual spell. Easy peasy done.
You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them, whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting the item and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it. If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it.
There are plenty of ways that you can answer the questions that are revealed by identify without giving away everything specifically.
If you don't want to give away anything, either have a glyph of warding attached to item that casts Nondetection when touched for 8 hours of immunity from divination magic or just have a powerful Nondetection spell permanently cast on it. If you want to allow Detect Magic to show magic around it since it isn't targeting the item, Abjuration magic from the Nondetection is all that registers.
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Identify also affects any magic-imbued object.
You can apply special rules for identifying items as you see fit. I usually do this with special items or McGuffins that have a reason for being vague, Identity gives basic information, but require a Legend Lore spell to fully flesh out the information on the item. This requires some investment from the players if they truly want to go through the trouble of learning about the item due to the cost and availability of the spell, which they usually do and turns into a roleplay possibility for the players.
The identify spell tells you what magic properties the object has and how to use them. If a magic shield required a command word to change into an axe then you will learn: that it can change into an axe if you say the right command word. It doesn't tell you what the command word is, however. For that you'd use Legend Lore.
In terms of a magic object the Identify spell does absolutely nothing differently than what you could learn during a short rest. The only benefit of using Identify is to save some time.
The only thing identify can do a short rest cannot is learn what spells are affecting the target - with exception of curses.
To the Original Poster and his Egg issue:
Dragons Eggs, regardless of substance or material, are not objects. They're creatures. Identify has no effect.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Actually, what they'd learn from casting identify on it is:
Even if it was a magic item, identify only identifies the magical properties (thus, identify is totally useless on a gun, and would not reveal that a magic item was made from a dragon's egg, even if it was). It also requires being in continuous contact with the item for a minute, which can be hazardous for a cursed item or trap.
Is an egg an object or a creature?
Does granting boons make it magical? I do not know this.
If it is magical and considered an object, does being able to hatch count as a property of the object? Identify does not say it reveals only magical properties.
EDIT: How does one interpret "you learn its properties and how to use them" if the property cannot be something a creature can use? Does it show the creature inside using any of the properties such as crawling out of the shell?
Is the shell granting the boon? Is the creature inside considered a second item?
So many questions but also so many ways to evade the Identify spell from revealing too much.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
ok the dragon egg is a bad example. And people are missing the point, it's not about the actual egg it's about the implications of having to give away too much of the narrative for little to no cost, whether it was my bad example of an egg or an actual item to which the spell actually does apply. However it is good to know that yes, an egg i'd say constitutes as a creature, so problem solved in that regard, thank you. But what about for magical items that are not creatures to which it would apply that could end up giving away narrative or story elements? But anyway, I think I've gathered enough information from this thread to get an idea how I'll handle it moving forward and will discuss it with the player controlling the Wizard.
Yes, this is more what I'm talking about. And I think what I'll say to the player controlling the wizard is that the identify spell will only reveal official D&D magic and not really the stuff I make up, or something like that.
The general intent of the Identify spell is so you can go "Yep, this is a +1 sword" and not have to worry too much about figuring it out -- in fact, you can do the same thing by spending a short rest handling the item. It's certainly fair to have esoteric, hidden, or historical properties not be revealed. It's also possible Arcanist's Magic Aura can deceive Identify.
In this case I don't think you have a problem. Identify will give them the magic properties of the item in terms of what it can do for them. It doesn't tell them WHY it does that.
"You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them. whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting the item and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it. If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it."
Is a dragon egg a magic item? Not necessarily. It is an egg. It can grow into a creature. Creatures aren't magic items. Identify specifically states that it reveals what spells might be affecting the creature if cast on a creature.
Identify also reveals the properties of the item and how to use them. I generally interpret this to be magical properties of the item and what you need to do to make it work. It may not necessarily give the character the command word but it would let them know there is one (DM call).
However, if a dragon egg has a secondary magical ability that could be used by the players then casting identify would tell them about that property and how they could use it. It doesn't tell the characters WHY that magic item has that magical property. Identify doesn't tell you how the item was made, it tells you what it can do. In this case, the players would find out about the boon but identify would not tell them it was a dragon egg because it isn't a magical property of the item. Identify tells you what an item does, it doesn't tell you what it is.
In this case, I think the players would learn the magical property and how to use it but not that the item is a dragon egg since that isn't relevant to the function.
Further :) ... its a DM call as to whether a dragon egg could even be considered a magical item at all. Identify might not work at all which would mystify the players :)
Eh, I don't really think that's a particularly good compromise, because in most games there isn't a hard line between "official D&D magic" and "stuff the DM makes up". Everything is up to the DM anyway.
I think treating it on a more case-by-case basis for MacGuffins and plot-related items is actually a better approach than trying to make up a general rule which isn't that good. I think it's fine to just modify the things you want to be a mystery in such a way that Identify won't work - it'll just add a layer of mystery to the object, and it won't feel like you're messing with the players, since it's just a low-level ritual. Dragon Egg - creature, not object. Magic item - any extra stuff could be a curse. Or maybe the item in question isn't magical by itself, but activates some ancient magic when something else happens. Or Nystul's Magic Aura is protecting it.
A DM has plenty of tools to make specific items more challenging to work with.
The nice thing about Legend Lore is that it relies on legends existing - must have legendary importance. The DM gets to control exactly what is known about something if the object is homebrew. If nobody knows something specific, it's not required to be revealed. Yet if one person knows it or there's some buried tome in the middle of a desert with information, Legend Lore could reveal it. Yet again, the lore could be in prose and allegory. As long as it's not an existing item with a source IRL, the DM is in charge. It's a great storytelling gimmick when balanced between storytelling and actually being useful.
...but we are referring to Identify. Great for storytelling but requires a different way of thinking to apply it as such. If a player has or may gain Identify, the DM must prepare the important bits of the campaign to sidestep it while not letting players feel scammed.
(Reminds me of a Speak with Animals spell that excised a huge chunk of a session 0 campaign because the animal was what they were seeking. The DM keeps bringing up that campaign when generating hooks for the players. A well-dressed man will approach the characters and ask for help, saying his son might be the rat he's holding - even though the original session 0, the noble refused to accept that the rat was his son until the end when they turned him back into a boy.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
yeah I don’t want to just be like “nope! Doesn’t do anything” so guess I’ll just have to prepare written descriptions to my liking that are also satisfactory to the person casting the spell on certain...unique objects.
if it helps, an egg is arguable a creature, in which case identify wouldnt work, which would give the players a whole bunch of interestign questions as to why a reliable spell wouldnt work. you hint at the nature and dont reveal it
You're the DM. Identify does what you bloody well say it does.
Matt Mercer straight up nope'd an Identify spell cast on his crazy-ass legendary MacGuffin in Campaign 2 of Critical Role. The wizard cast Identify, earned a headache for his trouble and the information "this item is powerful in a way you've never felt before. Ancient, unknowable, and well beyond the capabilities of a simple ritual."
It was great. Really drove home how intense this item was, without spoiling anything other than what they mostly already knew - this thing is not to be treated lightly. So do stuff like that. Certain items are too old, too eldritch, or just too freakin' powerful to be easily read by a basic first-level ritual spell. Easy peasy done.
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Identify
You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them, whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting the item and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it. If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it.
There are plenty of ways that you can answer the questions that are revealed by identify without giving away everything specifically.
If you don't want to give away anything, either have a glyph of warding attached to item that casts Nondetection when touched for 8 hours of immunity from divination magic or just have a powerful Nondetection spell permanently cast on it. If you want to allow Detect Magic to show magic around it since it isn't targeting the item, Abjuration magic from the Nondetection is all that registers.