AD&D 1st edition page 67 text of the Magic Missile spell:
Magic Missile (Evocation) Level: 1 Components: V, S Range: 6" + 1"/level Duration: Special Saving Throw: None Area of Effect: One or more Casting Time: 1 segment creatures in a 10 square foot area
Explanation/Description: Use of the magic missile spell creates one or more magical missiles which dart forth from the magic-user's fingertip and unerringly strike their target. Each missile does 2 to 5 hit points (d4+ 1 ) of damage. If the magic-user has multiple missile capability, he or she can have them strike a single target creature or several creatures, as desired.
For each level of experience of the magic-user, the range of his or her magic missile extends 1" beyond the 6" base range.
For every 2 levels of experience, the magic-user gains an additional missile, i.e. 2 at 3rd level, 3 at 5th level, 4 at 7th level, etc
Use of the magic missile spell creates up to five missiles of magical energy that dart forth from the wizard's fingertip and unerringly strike their target. This includes enemy creatures in a melee. The target creature must be seen or otherwise detected to be hit, however, so near-total concealment, such as that offered by arrow slits, can render the spell ineffective. Likewise, the caster must be able to identify the target. He cannot direct a magic missile to "Strike the commander of the legion," unless he can single out the commander from the rest of the soldiers.
Specific parts of a creature cannot be singled out. Inanimate objects (locks, etc.) cannot be damaged by the spell, and any attempt to do so wastes the missiles to no effect.
Against creatures, each missile inflicts 1d4+1 points of damage.
For every two extra levels of experience, the wizard gains an additional missile--he has two at 3rd level, three at 5th level, four at 7th level, etc., up to a total of five missiles at 9th level.
If the wizard has multiple missile capability, he can have them strike a single target creature or several creatures, as desired.
D&D 3.5 edition page 251 Magic Missile spell :
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage. The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher.
If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
As one can see clearly, the Magic Missile spell throughout it's history has been (1d4+1) damage per Missile created, and one missile per creature the player chooses to strike as the missiles target. [ AD&D original edition and the BECMI edition had damage per missile at 1d6+1, but had the same text as the AD&D 1st edition. ]
Death saves are an addition to the 5th edition rule set, and because of this the "all strike simultaneously" was added. [ to help minimize rolls, and time having to determine creature by creature who had what, and what missile caused 0hp and would force remaining missile death saving losses. ( see how this defeats the less rolling to save time effect the designers tried to accomplish) ]
Players and DM's in the 1980's would house rule that because a single missile was created, and more would be created at odd levels thereafter, one could "Railgun" the missile though several creatures that were in a straight line from the caster.
Jeremy Crawford, seems to be one of those individuals that house ruled the spell that way, also explains why he posted what he did.
Players and DM's can still house rule the spell as they wish, they just need to be aware of what the original intent of the spell is before changing the mechanics and creating a bigger mess than is inherent with the ambiguity of the wording of the RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
As one can see clearly, the Magic Missile spell throughout it's history has been (1d4+1) damage per Missile created, and one missile per creature the player chooses to strike as the missiles target. [ AD&D original edition and the BECMI edition had damage per missile at 1d6+1, but had the same text as the AD&D 1st edition. ]
Death saves are an addition to the 5th edition rule set, and because of this the "all strike simultaneously" was added. [ to help minimize rolls, and time having to determine creature by creature who had what, and what missile caused 0hp and would force remaining missile death saving losses. ( see how this defeats the less rolling to save time effect the designers tried to accomplish) ]
Players and DM's in the 1980's would house rule that because a single missile was created, and more would be created at odd levels thereafter, one could "Railgun" the missile though several creatures that were in a straight line from the caster.
Jeremy Crawford, seems to be one of those individuals that house ruled the spell that way, also explains why he posted what he did.
Players and DM's can still house rule the spell as they wish, they just need to be aware of what the original intent of the spell is before changing the mechanics and creating a bigger mess than is inherent with the ambiguity of the wording of the RAW.
They were always simultaneous. Spell duration 'instantaneous,' no mention in any of those descriptions of being able to fire them sequentially.
Not sure what DM's you would play with that would allow it to work like that. Every DM I have played with back to the beginning has played them like guided missiles going around obstacles as needed rather than as some sort of unstoppable force that punches through everything on the way, arguably doing more damage en route than they would against their intended target. 1st level spell....
One missile, one target back in the day was weak, 1d4 + 1 isn't much damage unless you can somehow exploit it in a worthwhile way that's fun for all. House ruling a stronger way it could be applied was something players and DM's would do to make it worth using (solo play) and provide more bang for the buck so to speak for the new players to enjoy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yall wildin out in this thread, just do what the spell says to do:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
3 darts
Roll a 1d4+1. That's how much damage a dart does.
They all hit at the same time. ie are the same instance of taking damage for concentration/death saves.
They can hit the same or different creatures.
Super straightforward no need to over-complicate it. As always, you're free to homebrew it to work differently in your games. Many people do (myself included).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As one can see clearly, the Magic Missile spell throughout it's history has been (1d4+1) damage per Missile created, and one missile per creature the player chooses to strike as the missiles target. [ AD&D original edition and the BECMI edition had damage per missile at 1d6+1, but had the same text as the AD&D 1st edition. ]
Death saves are an addition to the 5th edition rule set, and because of this the "all strike simultaneously" was added. [ to help minimize rolls, and time having to determine creature by creature who had what, and what missile caused 0hp and would force remaining missile death saving losses. ( see how this defeats the less rolling to save time effect the designers tried to accomplish) ]
Players and DM's in the 1980's would house rule that because a single missile was created, and more would be created at odd levels thereafter, one could "Railgun" the missile though several creatures that were in a straight line from the caster.
Jeremy Crawford, seems to be one of those individuals that house ruled the spell that way, also explains why he posted what he did.
Players and DM's can still house rule the spell as they wish, they just need to be aware of what the original intent of the spell is before changing the mechanics and creating a bigger mess than is inherent with the ambiguity of the wording of the RAW.
They were always simultaneous. Spell duration 'instantaneous,' no mention in any of those descriptions of being able to fire them sequentially.
Not sure what DM's you would play with that would allow it to work like that. Every DM I have played with back to the beginning has played them like guided missiles going around obstacles as needed rather than as some sort of unstoppable force that punches through everything on the way, arguably doing more damage en route than they would against their intended target. 1st level spell....
One missile, one target back in the day was weak, 1d4 + 1 isn't much damage unless you can somehow exploit it in a worthwhile way that's fun for all. House ruling a stronger way it could be applied was something players and DM's would do to make it worth using (solo play) and provide more bang for the buck so to speak for the new players to enjoy.
What are you talking about? You could always target more against any given target too. And back in 1e, the damage went up a missile every two levels, while remaining a 1st level spell. Fireball and lightning bolt escalated 1 die per level too but started at 5d6 not 8. Magic missile was particularly good for interrupting casting since casting times were different.
Simply stating that back in the old days DM's would house rule that lower char levels players could bend the rules slightly to have the single missile that would be created, till the player got to higher levels and gained more missiles, do all kinds of crazy things.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
effects in game happening simultaneously, at the exact same time, doesn’t mean the effects are combined. Yes it probably makes sense to subtract all the damage cumulatively dealt in one instance while playing the game to speed up the process, but that doesn’t mean that the mechanics or consequences of each effect wouldnt be dealt with individually if they would actually have varying outcomes.
there is guidance in Xanathars I believe about dealing with simultaneous effects. I would think the same logic would apply even if the “simultaneous” effects come from a single spell or action.
regarding the “instantaneous” spell duration, that also doesn’t necessarily mean that these effects happen at the same time. There are several examples of spells which are “instantaneous” in duration but continue to have effects after casting. Vicious mockery and synaptic static are such examples. I would say that at this point instantaneous means that you couldn’t dispel the effect, not limit what happens after the spell is cast.
there is guidance in Xanathars I believe about dealing with simultaneous effects. I would think the same logic would apply even if the “simultaneous” effects come from a single spell or action.
XGTE only says that the acting character gets to choose the order in which simultaneous effects are resolved, which isn't really relevant to magic missile. Combining Magical Effects in the PHB arguably does apply, but just makes everything even less coherent.
The guidance in Xanathars describes how effects happening simultaneously might be resolved, the disagreement seems to be on what exactly an effect would be. So your interpretation is that the missiles that hit simultaneously aren’t individual effects?
“Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table—whether player or DM—who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.”
My interpretation would be that magic missile would be one of those “rare” cases where several simultaneous effects can happen just by casting the spell. Is an effect defined in game somewhere in a way that precludes instances of damage?
for comparison purposes, I don’t see much difference between choosing what happens with each missile vs a target and a multiclass deciding between multiple on hit effects. Like a battlemaster/swarmkeeper with the crusher feat trying to figure out which effects they want to use first, on the same hit.
I think the rules of Magic Missile are rather straightforward with just these two rules.
In the Introduction before Chapter 1 in the PHB, is the rule of Specific beats general, this means if Magic Missile's spell rules are specific in just the right ways it can override other rules like the Damage Rolls rule in Chapter 9.
So then what does the rules of Magic Missile say?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Notice this "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage", this means each dart deals a unique 1d4 + 1 force damage, not a shared 1d4 + 1 for all the darts. How could this be? The word 'dart' is a noun in the singular form. Meaning everyone using magic missiles with a single 1d4 + 1 force damage for all darts and using the Empowered Evocation for the plus Int mod is min-maxing and playing RAF not RAW.
Also, anyone who wants to say "but it strikes simultaneously." This means nothing to how the damage is rolled, but to how it is received by the target. The word simultaneously means 'at the same time', so how does that affect the damage of the darts? If one dart deals 5 damage it hits the ribs, if another dart deals 2 damage it hits the pinky toe, but both hit at the same time, aka, simultaneously. This means the DM should not let the player know if 2/3 or 5/11 darts kill (or not kill) the target(s) until after the player is okay with their choice for each dart.
I'm honestly surprised by how much debate this has caused when all you need to do is have basic knowledge in reading and writing classes from high school, and just check a dictionary for any specifics you're unsure of as you read the words of the rules.
I think the rules of Magic Missile are rather straightforward with just these two rules.
In the Introduction before Chapter 1 in the PHB, is the rule of Specific beats general, this means if Magic Missile's spell rules are specific in just the right ways it can override other rules like the Damage Rolls rule in Chapter 9.
So then what does the rules of Magic Missile say?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Notice this "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage", this means each dart deals a unique 1d4 + 1 force damage, not a shared 1d4 + 1 for all the darts. How could this be? The word 'dart' is a noun in the singular form. Meaning everyone using magic missiles with a single 1d4 + 1 force damage for all darts and using the Empowered Evocation for the plus Int mod is min-maxing and playing RAF not RAW.
Also, anyone who wants to say "but it strikes simultaneously." This means nothing to how the damage is rolled, but to how it is received by the target. The word simultaneously means 'at the same time', so how does that affect the damage of the darts? If one dart deals 5 damage it hits the ribs, if another dart deals 2 damage it hits the pinky toe, but both hit at the same time, aka, simultaneously. This means the DM should not let the player know if 2/3 or 5/11 darts kill (or not kill) the target(s) until after the player is okay with their choice for each dart.
I'm honestly surprised by how much debate this has caused when all you need to do is have basic knowledge in reading and writing classes from high school, and just check a dictionary for any specifics you're unsure of as you read the words of the rules.
That's a lot of text to convey that you haven't read the rules for how to roll damage dice for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously.
I think the rules of Magic Missile are rather straightforward with just these two rules.
In the Introduction before Chapter 1 in the PHB, is the rule of Specific beats general, this means if Magic Missile's spell rules are specific in just the right ways it can override other rules like the Damage Rolls rule in Chapter 9.
So then what does the rules of Magic Missile say?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Notice this "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage", this means each dart deals a unique 1d4 + 1 force damage, not a shared 1d4 + 1 for all the darts. How could this be? The word 'dart' is a noun in the singular form. Meaning everyone using magic missiles with a single 1d4 + 1 force damage for all darts and using the Empowered Evocation for the plus Int mod is min-maxing and playing RAF not RAW.
Also, anyone who wants to say "but it strikes simultaneously." This means nothing to how the damage is rolled, but to how it is received by the target. The word simultaneously means 'at the same time', so how does that affect the damage of the darts? If one dart deals 5 damage it hits the ribs, if another dart deals 2 damage it hits the pinky toe, but both hit at the same time, aka, simultaneously. This means the DM should not let the player know if 2/3 or 5/11 darts kill (or not kill) the target(s) until after the player is okay with their choice for each dart.
I'm honestly surprised by how much debate this has caused when all you need to do is have basic knowledge in reading and writing classes from high school, and just check a dictionary for any specifics you're unsure of as you read the words of the rules.
That's a lot of text to convey that you haven't read the rules for how to roll damage dice for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously.
Care to explain what I missed? I did point out the Damage rolls rule, I just didn't read it out for everyone.
So, did I miss something else? Then again even if I did, you missed the Specific beats General rule at the beginning of my post that allows Magic Missle's damage rolls to override the general rule of the Damage roll rules.
I think the rules of Magic Missile are rather straightforward with just these two rules.
In the Introduction before Chapter 1 in the PHB, is the rule of Specific beats general, this means if Magic Missile's spell rules are specific in just the right ways it can override other rules like the Damage Rolls rule in Chapter 9.
So then what does the rules of Magic Missile say?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Notice this "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage", this means each dart deals a unique 1d4 + 1 force damage, not a shared 1d4 + 1 for all the darts. How could this be? The word 'dart' is a noun in the singular form. Meaning everyone using magic missiles with a single 1d4 + 1 force damage for all darts and using the Empowered Evocation for the plus Int mod is min-maxing and playing RAF not RAW.
Also, anyone who wants to say "but it strikes simultaneously." This means nothing to how the damage is rolled, but to how it is received by the target. The word simultaneously means 'at the same time', so how does that affect the damage of the darts? If one dart deals 5 damage it hits the ribs, if another dart deals 2 damage it hits the pinky toe, but both hit at the same time, aka, simultaneously. This means the DM should not let the player know if 2/3 or 5/11 darts kill (or not kill) the target(s) until after the player is okay with their choice for each dart.
I'm honestly surprised by how much debate this has caused when all you need to do is have basic knowledge in reading and writing classes from high school, and just check a dictionary for any specifics you're unsure of as you read the words of the rules.
That's a lot of text to convey that you haven't read the rules for how to roll damage dice for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously.
The context of the spell Magic Missile speaks for itself. Just because one individual in name and title imparted his personal interpretation and intent of the spell, (Jeremy Crawford), does not make it gospel.
suum cuique Latin for "to each their own".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
So, did I miss something else? Then again even if I did, you missed the Specific beats General rule at the beginning of my post that allows Magic Missle's damage rolls to override the general rule of the Damage roll rules.
Magic Missile has no specific text overriding the general rule linked above.
I don't know what page it's on, as this thread is a behemoth, so rather than find my old post, I'll just repeat myself here, and maybe someone will listen:
There is no legal way to cast Magic Missile in general. If you hit 1 target with every dart, you must roll per dart. If you hit multiple targets with the same number of darts each, you must roll once and multiply to apply that much damage to each target. If you hit multiple targets with a different number of darts each, Magic Missile becomes the only spell in the game capable of dealing simultaneous damage in distinct amounts and you enter a rules paradox where no way you roll the dice has rules support. The only way out is DM fiat, because WOTC isn't going to fix their mess, and that means this entire thread is moot. There is no one clear, concise, RAW answer to the question.
Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target
Located within the very specific wording of the spell Magic Missile which contradicts and overrides the Chapter 9 general Damage and Healing rule.
The spell itself states exactly how the spell from both the caster and DM's perspective is to be legally cast and managed. But individuals not wanting to slow or even stop play to handle the spell correctly have house-ruled different ways to quickly handle how they believe the spell works.
As I have said "to each their own", and people are free to handle the spell as they wish.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Hopefuly these links help you, and for extra aid I'll gulde you into the knowldge.
Magic Missile spawns 3 darts at 1st level, A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage.
"A dart" means "one dart" because dart is a singular noun.
So one dart rolls 1d4+1 force damage, this is repeated for each dart within the spell level.
I hope this over simplified explanation helps everyone to understand the RAW for Magic Missile and how anyone using a single 1d4+1 damage for all darts is RAF, but it's fine becasue min-maxing single/multi target damage can still be fun even when it's not RAW. RAW is RAI but RAF homebrewing is still allowed.
Hopefuly these links help you, and for extra aid I'll gulde you into the knowldge.
People love to point to the specific beats general rule without pointing to an actual exception.
So one dart rolls 1d4+1 force damage, this is repeated for each dart within the spell level.
Is this your attempt to show what the exception is? That's not a requirement of the rules or of English. That makes it an interpretation. If one interpretation of a rule doesn't fit with a general rule but a second one does, that means the second interpretation is correct, not that the specific incorrect interpretation beats a general rule.
I have three dollars. A dollar buys a drink. The other two don't?
I can see this thread going on forever because of a fundamental flaw in 5e. The rules are written in conversational English to make it easier to read instead of being written from a technical game design point of view. There's a reason why legal documents are written in "legalese" and require lawyers to sort out.
RAW versus RAI wouldn't be an issue if the designers took more care in writing the rules.
Don't get me wrong, 5e is my favorite edition, but it would be nice if we didn't have to read between the lines so often.
Also, WOTC doesn't understand the concept of an index. Being able to find what I need is one reason why I like D&D Beyond.
If you read that rule, it specifically mentions only counting when hitting more than one enemy at the same time, so a magic missile where all missiles hit the same enemy would not fall under that rule, and should for that reason default to the generic rule of always rolling damage for each damage instance...
If you read that rule, it specifically mentions only counting when hitting more than one enemy at the same time, so a magic missile where all missiles hit the same enemy would not fall under that rule, and should for that reason default to the generic rule of always rolling damage for each damage instance...
I specifically said this in the post you're quoting. Naturally, this means I agree with you.
Hopefuly these links help you, and for extra aid I'll gulde you into the knowldge.
People love to point to the specific beats general rule without pointing to an actual exception.
Yeah, specific only beats general if there's actually something specific there. The problem with magic missile would mostly be resolved if they changed 'spell or effect' to be 'effect', as a spell can generate multiple effects. I don't think anyone is arguing that you use the same die roll for the bludgeoning and the ice damage from ice storm, but it's an argument you can make.
Hopefuly these links help you, and for extra aid I'll gulde you into the knowldge.
People love to point to the specific beats general rule without pointing to an actual exception.
Yeah, specific only beats general if there's actually something specific there. The problem with magic missile would mostly be resolved if they changed 'spell or effect' to be 'effect', as a spell can generate multiple effects. I don't think anyone is arguing that you use the same die roll for the bludgeoning and the ice damage from ice storm, but it's an argument you can make.
IMHO, you can also resolve it by taking "Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range." to mean that each dart has its own target and a creature can be more than one target. But that isn't a hill I'll die on, as no one will ever agree on this topic. It is just the interpretation that most easily gets you from what is written (that is different from most other spells) to what has been said is intended. And of course, as I said on probably page 1 of this thread, more dice is more fun, so I am not recommending any particular ruling anyway.
But I have seen people rather frequently using "specific beats general" to mean something very different from "this rule is written clearly as an exception to a general rule." That is really the only case for specific v. general, not "this interpretation breaks a general rule." If that's the case, pick a different interpretation.
AD&D 1st edition page 67 text of the Magic Missile spell:
AD&D 2nd edition PHB Appendix 3 Magic Missile spell:
D&D 3.5 edition page 251 Magic Missile spell :
Magic Missile 5th edition ( PHB & Basic Rules) :
As one can see clearly, the Magic Missile spell throughout it's history has been (1d4+1) damage per Missile created, and one missile per creature the player chooses to strike as the missiles target. [ AD&D original edition and the BECMI edition had damage per missile at 1d6+1, but had the same text as the AD&D 1st edition. ]
Death saves are an addition to the 5th edition rule set, and because of this the "all strike simultaneously" was added. [ to help minimize rolls, and time having to determine creature by creature who had what, and what missile caused 0hp and would force remaining missile death saving losses. ( see how this defeats the less rolling to save time effect the designers tried to accomplish) ]
Players and DM's in the 1980's would house rule that because a single missile was created, and more would be created at odd levels thereafter, one could "Railgun" the missile though several creatures that were in a straight line from the caster.
Jeremy Crawford, seems to be one of those individuals that house ruled the spell that way, also explains why he posted what he did.
Players and DM's can still house rule the spell as they wish, they just need to be aware of what the original intent of the spell is before changing the mechanics and creating a bigger mess than is inherent with the ambiguity of the wording of the RAW.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
One missile, one target back in the day was weak, 1d4 + 1 isn't much damage unless you can somehow exploit it in a worthwhile way that's fun for all. House ruling a stronger way it could be applied was something players and DM's would do to make it worth using (solo play) and provide more bang for the buck so to speak for the new players to enjoy.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yall wildin out in this thread, just do what the spell says to do:
Super straightforward no need to over-complicate it. As always, you're free to homebrew it to work differently in your games. Many people do (myself included).
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Simply stating that back in the old days DM's would house rule that lower char levels players could bend the rules slightly to have the single missile that would be created, till the player got to higher levels and gained more missiles, do all kinds of crazy things.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
effects in game happening simultaneously, at the exact same time, doesn’t mean the effects are combined. Yes it probably makes sense to subtract all the damage cumulatively dealt in one instance while playing the game to speed up the process, but that doesn’t mean that the mechanics or consequences of each effect wouldnt be dealt with individually if they would actually have varying outcomes.
there is guidance in Xanathars I believe about dealing with simultaneous effects. I would think the same logic would apply even if the “simultaneous” effects come from a single spell or action.
regarding the “instantaneous” spell duration, that also doesn’t necessarily mean that these effects happen at the same time. There are several examples of spells which are “instantaneous” in duration but continue to have effects after casting. Vicious mockery and synaptic static are such examples. I would say that at this point instantaneous means that you couldn’t dispel the effect, not limit what happens after the spell is cast.
XGTE only says that the acting character gets to choose the order in which simultaneous effects are resolved, which isn't really relevant to magic missile. Combining Magical Effects in the PHB arguably does apply, but just makes everything even less coherent.
The guidance in Xanathars describes how effects happening simultaneously might be resolved, the disagreement seems to be on what exactly an effect would be. So your interpretation is that the missiles that hit simultaneously aren’t individual effects?
“Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table—whether player or DM—who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.”
My interpretation would be that magic missile would be one of those “rare” cases where several simultaneous effects can happen just by casting the spell. Is an effect defined in game somewhere in a way that precludes instances of damage?
for comparison purposes, I don’t see much difference between choosing what happens with each missile vs a target and a multiclass deciding between multiple on hit effects. Like a battlemaster/swarmkeeper with the crusher feat trying to figure out which effects they want to use first, on the same hit.
I think the rules of Magic Missile are rather straightforward with just these two rules.
In the Introduction before Chapter 1 in the PHB, is the rule of Specific beats general, this means if Magic Missile's spell rules are specific in just the right ways it can override other rules like the Damage Rolls rule in Chapter 9.
So then what does the rules of Magic Missile say?
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1
force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot level above 1st.
Notice this "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage", this means each dart deals a unique 1d4 + 1 force damage, not a shared 1d4 + 1 for all the darts. How could this be? The word 'dart' is a noun in the singular form. Meaning everyone using magic missiles with a single 1d4 + 1 force damage for all darts and using the Empowered Evocation for the plus Int mod is min-maxing and playing RAF not RAW.
Also, anyone who wants to say "but it strikes simultaneously." This means nothing to how the damage is rolled, but to how it is received by the target. The word simultaneously means 'at the same time', so how does that affect the damage of the darts? If one dart deals 5 damage it hits the ribs, if another dart deals 2 damage it hits the pinky toe, but both hit at the same time, aka, simultaneously. This means the DM should not let the player know if 2/3 or 5/11 darts kill (or not kill) the target(s) until after the player is okay with their choice for each dart.
I'm honestly surprised by how much debate this has caused when all you need to do is have basic knowledge in reading and writing classes from high school, and just check a dictionary for any specifics you're unsure of as you read the words of the rules.
That's a lot of text to convey that you haven't read the rules for how to roll damage dice for spells that damage multiple targets simultaneously.
Care to explain what I missed? I did point out the Damage rolls rule, I just didn't read it out for everyone.
So, did I miss something else? Then again even if I did, you missed the Specific beats General rule at the beginning of my post that allows Magic Missle's damage rolls to override the general rule of the Damage roll rules.
The context of the spell Magic Missile speaks for itself. Just because one individual in name and title imparted his personal interpretation and intent of the spell, (Jeremy Crawford), does not make it gospel.
suum cuique Latin for "to each their own".
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.
Magic Missile has no specific text overriding the general rule linked above.
I don't know what page it's on, as this thread is a behemoth, so rather than find my old post, I'll just repeat myself here, and maybe someone will listen:
There is no legal way to cast Magic Missile in general. If you hit 1 target with every dart, you must roll per dart. If you hit multiple targets with the same number of darts each, you must roll once and multiply to apply that much damage to each target. If you hit multiple targets with a different number of darts each, Magic Missile becomes the only spell in the game capable of dealing simultaneous damage in distinct amounts and you enter a rules paradox where no way you roll the dice has rules support. The only way out is DM fiat, because WOTC isn't going to fix their mess, and that means this entire thread is moot. There is no one clear, concise, RAW answer to the question.
Located within the very specific wording of the spell Magic Missile which contradicts and overrides the Chapter 9 general Damage and Healing rule.
The spell itself states exactly how the spell from both the caster and DM's perspective is to be legally cast and managed. But individuals not wanting to slow or even stop play to handle the spell correctly have house-ruled different ways to quickly handle how they believe the spell works.
As I have said "to each their own", and people are free to handle the spell as they wish.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
So basicly you haven't read the Magic Missile rules, yet say you have?
Nor did your read my thorough but short explanation in post #331 on page 17?
Well, the Specific beats general rules, beats the general rules of Damage Rolls rules for Magic Missile rules if you care to read them.
Hopefuly these links help you, and for extra aid I'll gulde you into the knowldge.
Magic Missile spawns 3 darts at 1st level, A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage.
"A dart" means "one dart" because dart is a singular noun.
So one dart rolls 1d4+1 force damage, this is repeated for each dart within the spell level.
I hope this over simplified explanation helps everyone to understand the RAW for Magic Missile and how anyone using a single 1d4+1 damage for all darts is RAF, but it's fine becasue min-maxing single/multi target damage can still be fun even when it's not RAW. RAW is RAI but RAF homebrewing is still allowed.
Is this your attempt to show what the exception is? That's not a requirement of the rules or of English. That makes it an interpretation. If one interpretation of a rule doesn't fit with a general rule but a second one does, that means the second interpretation is correct, not that the specific incorrect interpretation beats a general rule.
I have three dollars. A dollar buys a drink. The other two don't?
I can see this thread going on forever because of a fundamental flaw in 5e. The rules are written in conversational English to make it easier to read instead of being written from a technical game design point of view. There's a reason why legal documents are written in "legalese" and require lawyers to sort out.
RAW versus RAI wouldn't be an issue if the designers took more care in writing the rules.
Don't get me wrong, 5e is my favorite edition, but it would be nice if we didn't have to read between the lines so often.
Also, WOTC doesn't understand the concept of an index. Being able to find what I need is one reason why I like D&D Beyond.
If you read that rule, it specifically mentions only counting when hitting more than one enemy at the same time, so a magic missile where all missiles hit the same enemy would not fall under that rule, and should for that reason default to the generic rule of always rolling damage for each damage instance...
I specifically said this in the post you're quoting. Naturally, this means I agree with you.
Yeah, specific only beats general if there's actually something specific there. The problem with magic missile would mostly be resolved if they changed 'spell or effect' to be 'effect', as a spell can generate multiple effects. I don't think anyone is arguing that you use the same die roll for the bludgeoning and the ice damage from ice storm, but it's an argument you can make.
IMHO, you can also resolve it by taking "Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range." to mean that each dart has its own target and a creature can be more than one target. But that isn't a hill I'll die on, as no one will ever agree on this topic. It is just the interpretation that most easily gets you from what is written (that is different from most other spells) to what has been said is intended. And of course, as I said on probably page 1 of this thread, more dice is more fun, so I am not recommending any particular ruling anyway.
But I have seen people rather frequently using "specific beats general" to mean something very different from "this rule is written clearly as an exception to a general rule." That is really the only case for specific v. general, not "this interpretation breaks a general rule." If that's the case, pick a different interpretation.