A creature that is affected by hypnotic pattern: spell ends if a creature takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor.
Recently myself and another player had a disagreement. told him that if a creature is under the effects of hypnotic pattern and we actively try to shove him into a hole that should we fail our action would wake him.
The other player said that our action has to be "to deliberately wake him from his stupor" so the creature would still by hypnotized.
I replied by that logic we could dance with the creature, do jumping jacks, remove all of their clothing, smack them a few times and do 54 other seconds worth of acts and simply state "gentle enough not to cause damage and without waking them from their stupor"
So anyways, all this to ask: would it be ruled/should it be ruled, that forcefully trying to shove a creature in a hole be enough to wake them from a hypnotic pattern.
A DM could reasonably rule otherwise, but I believe the intent is that the other creature must take a "shake the creature out of its stupor" improvised action to break hypnotic pattern on a creature.
In my mind, it must be a shock akin to a violent shake or smack on the face. Failing a shove (which doesn't move them) shouldn't wake them, I'd think. It is up to DM.
failing a save doesn't move them in my view would be a static approach.
The way I envision combat is not 2 people standing in their square (a la old school videogame rpg) and smacking each other, but rather two opponents weaving and bobbing while occupying a 5' area. I mean if you stand up you would occupy a 2'x2' area at best. (even less)
The way I see a failed shove is: I am in my space, you are in yours and you actively force me out of my space while I oppose you. (like sumo wrestler style) your failed save is NOT your inability to move me but rather my ability to stay within my 5' space and not be knocked out. It is two opponents viciously attacking each other with one of them trying to get the upphand and push the other one back. They move into each other spaces, back and forth fighting for inches until either I push you back or you hold your ground.
If you watch an MMA fight there are constant examples of pushing people back, tripping them or knocking them down. It is rarely ever, a single movement that is victorious, it is a series of movements, actions and combos that when performed over that 6 second span gives 1 fighter an advantage over the other.
I would say a successful shove would absolutely wake the creature no matter if they took damage or not. As for a failed shove it would depend on the circumstances - but most likely yes it would wake them.
It would likely depend on just how badly the shove attempt failed. If you roll really low, you're probably not going to wake them. If you were close to the DC, though, you're gonna wake them.
The way I would rule it ... you could gently move the creatures hands and feet to tie them up if you like. However, any violent interaction, shaking, shoving, hard grappling, pushing them over so they fall in a pit or even fall to the ground would wake them up. They are only hypnotized by the pretty lights. It takes a bit of an intervention to jog them out of it but any type of violent interaction would be sufficient.
The problem with ruling that a shove wakes the creature, from a game perspective, is that it opens up for all creatures to awaken their allies with a shove action. The spell is balanced around the idea that allies can only bring one of their partners out of a stupor by spending an entire action to pull them out of it, or dealing damage. If a shove will accomplish the same thing, any creature with extra attack can make multiple shove attempts against their allies to force them out of it... so instead of attacking two allies in a round under the logic that the damage cost is worth bringing two allies back into combat, instead it's just a free way to heal two allies at once.
I get the logic of it... if you're in a hypnotic stupor and being violently shoved five feet it makes sense that this should be enough to wake you up. But this is one of those things that clashes between D&D as a game and D&D as a simulation... part of the appeal is that enough details are gamified to make D&D feel fun and approachable without too much book keeping needed. The downside of that is, occasionally, you come across these details that make logical sense but throw off the balance of the game aspect.
in the case mentioned it would take up the action. As SHOVE is an action. So a creature that gets multiple attacks, would not work as they still get 1 attack action that has multiple attacks in it. Even a fighter can't do multiple shoves as SHOVE is not a type of attack but rather uses an action to do.
in the case mentioned it would take up the action. As SHOVE is an action. So a creature that gets multiple attacks, would not work as they still get 1 attack action that has multiple attacks in it. Even a fighter can't do multiple shoves as SHOVE is not a type of attack but rather uses an action to do.
Shove is a special action which can take the place of a single attack if you have the Extra Attack feature. So TransmorpherDDS is absolutely right.
Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
in the case mentioned it would take up the action. As SHOVE is an action. So a creature that gets multiple attacks, would not work as they still get 1 attack action that has multiple attacks in it. Even a fighter can't do multiple shoves as SHOVE is not a type of attack but rather uses an action to do.
I really only know this because I went out of my way to build a wrestler-type barbarian using Tavern Brawler for bonus grapples, but I've juggled attacks and shoves a lot for knocking people on their ass to give myself advantage.
A creature that is affected by hypnotic pattern: spell ends if a creature takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor.
Recently myself and another player had a disagreement. told him that if a creature is under the effects of hypnotic pattern and we actively try to shove him into a hole that should we fail our action would wake him.
The other player said that our action has to be "to deliberately wake him from his stupor" so the creature would still by hypnotized.
I replied by that logic we could dance with the creature, do jumping jacks, remove all of their clothing, smack them a few times and do 54 other seconds worth of acts and simply state "gentle enough not to cause damage and without waking them from their stupor"
So anyways, all this to ask: would it be ruled/should it be ruled, that forcefully trying to shove a creature in a hole be enough to wake them from a hypnotic pattern.
Thank you
A DM could reasonably rule otherwise, but I believe the intent is that the other creature must take a "shake the creature out of its stupor" improvised action to break hypnotic pattern on a creature.
In my mind, it must be a shock akin to a violent shake or smack on the face. Failing a shove (which doesn't move them) shouldn't wake them, I'd think. It is up to DM.
failing a save doesn't move them in my view would be a static approach.
The way I envision combat is not 2 people standing in their square (a la old school videogame rpg) and smacking each other, but rather two opponents weaving and bobbing while occupying a 5' area. I mean if you stand up you would occupy a 2'x2' area at best. (even less)
The way I see a failed shove is: I am in my space, you are in yours and you actively force me out of my space while I oppose you. (like sumo wrestler style) your failed save is NOT your inability to move me but rather my ability to stay within my 5' space and not be knocked out. It is two opponents viciously attacking each other with one of them trying to get the upphand and push the other one back. They move into each other spaces, back and forth fighting for inches until either I push you back or you hold your ground.
If you watch an MMA fight there are constant examples of pushing people back, tripping them or knocking them down. It is rarely ever, a single movement that is victorious, it is a series of movements, actions and combos that when performed over that 6 second span gives 1 fighter an advantage over the other.
That is what I envision a "shove" action to be
I would say a successful shove would absolutely wake the creature no matter if they took damage or not. As for a failed shove it would depend on the circumstances - but most likely yes it would wake them.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I would rule that any attempt to shove him wakes him up.
It would likely depend on just how badly the shove attempt failed. If you roll really low, you're probably not going to wake them. If you were close to the DC, though, you're gonna wake them.
The way I would rule it ... you could gently move the creatures hands and feet to tie them up if you like. However, any violent interaction, shaking, shoving, hard grappling, pushing them over so they fall in a pit or even fall to the ground would wake them up. They are only hypnotized by the pretty lights. It takes a bit of an intervention to jog them out of it but any type of violent interaction would be sufficient.
The problem with ruling that a shove wakes the creature, from a game perspective, is that it opens up for all creatures to awaken their allies with a shove action. The spell is balanced around the idea that allies can only bring one of their partners out of a stupor by spending an entire action to pull them out of it, or dealing damage. If a shove will accomplish the same thing, any creature with extra attack can make multiple shove attempts against their allies to force them out of it... so instead of attacking two allies in a round under the logic that the damage cost is worth bringing two allies back into combat, instead it's just a free way to heal two allies at once.
I get the logic of it... if you're in a hypnotic stupor and being violently shoved five feet it makes sense that this should be enough to wake you up. But this is one of those things that clashes between D&D as a game and D&D as a simulation... part of the appeal is that enough details are gamified to make D&D feel fun and approachable without too much book keeping needed. The downside of that is, occasionally, you come across these details that make logical sense but throw off the balance of the game aspect.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
in the case mentioned it would take up the action. As SHOVE is an action. So a creature that gets multiple attacks, would not work as they still get 1 attack action that has multiple attacks in it. Even a fighter can't do multiple shoves as SHOVE is not a type of attack but rather uses an action to do.
Shove is a special action which can take the place of a single attack if you have the Extra Attack feature. So TransmorpherDDS is absolutely right.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
It is specifically the opposite.
I really only know this because I went out of my way to build a wrestler-type barbarian using Tavern Brawler for bonus grapples, but I've juggled attacks and shoves a lot for knocking people on their ass to give myself advantage.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium