I am running Out of the Abyss for my group and yesterday they encountered a group of enemies. Roll Initiative. Wizard of the group rolls 22 and gets to be first in initiative order.
After this, the Wizard walks up within range of the commanding unit of the group, casts Suggestion and says "Command your troops to stand down and escort us to your village". Followed by me trying to find a loophole to escape the situation. After 5 minutes of thinking, I decide to roll a Persuasion contest between the commander and his troops on the commander's turn. The commander rolls an 18 and everyone except one of his troops roll low.
This would sound like a clever strategy, but the real problems arose when a faction that was meant to be friendly to the players arrived and both me and the players were struck numb with indecisiveness on how to resolve the situation. A massive fight with the players totally ignoring the situation for a good hour ensued as I wasn't really familiar with Mob Rules in the beginning.
So my questions are:
1) Would there have been a better way to handle the Suggestion as it was really only targeting one of the enemies and not all of them?
2) If not, would just describing how the group that the party is supposed to befriend just slays all the non-friendly enemies without a combat been too railroady?
3) If everything else fails, would banning Suggestion from my campaign be too much? Or would a mere combat ban be better?
4) If a ban is not a solution, what kind of homebrew rules have you been using to limit ridiculous outcomes for the spell?
As soon as you rolled initiative, the basic intention of both opposing parties is already obvious to both sides, as in hostile engagement.
The rules for the Suggestion spell say '...The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable...'
In the case, that combat already broke out and realistically all sides are starting to engage, even though in combat rounds the mage goes first, this action he suggested is not at all reasonable.
Suggestion is a very DM dependent spell. It is also a great spell. It allows for fun an enjoyable (and unexpected) plot developments which often means that you have roll with it when a character casts the spell.
In general, without more details, I think the use of Suggestion in this case really worked well.
The text from suggestion is "You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."
The suggestion was: ""Command your troops to stand down and escort us to your village"
In this case the DM needs to first determine if the suggestion was reasonable to the NPC hearing it. Is the NPC out for blood? Is their only goal to kill the PCs or would having them as prisoners be a fine alternative? Keep in mind that suggestion doesn't make them friendly, it doesn't make them follow orders except as covered by the suggestion. Does the NPC even have a village to escort the players to?
In this case, assuming that the NPC is fine with having a bunch of prisoners instead of dead PCs then there is no real reason why it wouldn't be a reasonable suggestion. Hey .. if the PCs WANT to surrender .. why not accept?
The next question is .. do the troops go along? This depends on the NPCs and their organization. Is the organization structured with the most powerful in charge and the others follow orders or risk death? In such an organization the leader could likely intimidate everyone else into following his orders even if the leader appeared to be taking orders from a PC. On the other hand, if the leader isn't that strong to start with or if the others know their orders were to kill the PCs then they might be harder to convince. In a military structure based on merit rather than force, the squad leaders/NCOs in the group would be much more likely to realize that the leader was under the influence of a spell and come up with a plan. In this case, the rest might appear to go along with the leader but decide to "escort" the PCs by providing an "honor" guard (i.e. surrounding them) and at an opportune moment ambushing them. The leader will stay out of it because they won't be attacking their own troops no matter what.
Honestly, the suggestion is a highly risky plan on the part of the PCs unless they know they might be safe at the village.
You then have this other group that appears to be opposed to the group "escorting" the PCs.
Keep in mind that the PCs don't know that you want them to ally with one group and not the other. The PCs don't have enough information to choose ... unless they do ... is one group drow/dark dwarves/orcs or some evil creature and the other more obviously aligned to someone who might be a more appropriate ally? Are there any indications or clues for the PCs, any foreshadowing? If not, the PCs could end up going either way with their support. They may choose the "wrong" side. This is D&D and a sandbox :) there is nothing wrong with that until the characters learn they choose incorrectly ... then you have to figure out a plot device that moves them towards the correct side and mends the fences. There are many plot devices that could make this possible. The PCs end up in a stockade at the "village" they are heading towards ... in a prison with some members of the other side they fought against .. they then learn the true story, their mistake, and a rescue force from the other side rescues both. It may be totally off script for the module (I don't know, I haven't played it) but you can probably come up with some scenario to move the plot in the direction you want it to go.
This is the kind of thing suggestion can do in terms of modifying an expected plot progression ... and it is FUN :).
However, if you want the second group to encounter the "escorts" and have a fight ... you don't need to roll dice for every NPC if the PCs decide to stay out of it. However, keep in mind that whoever wins might not be very happy with the PCs for staying on the sidelines while their friends die. Anyway, while the PCs aren't in the fight you can narrate the encounter between the two groups, describe some of the combats, describe various NPCs on both sides dying ... so that the players know how serious this is and that there may be consequences if they stay on the fence. If the outcome of the battle is in doubt (meaning you don't know if one force can defeat the other without the PCs then describe it that way and see if that helps them decide .. however, you do need to give the PCs some information (if it is available) so they can choose which side .. otherwise it is random chance).
Overall, I think the way it went was fine. I would not do anything to the suggestion spell ... but you need to give some more thought to reasonable in game consequences related to the use of the spell so that things flow logically from the effects of the Suggestion ... you don't need to usually preserve the details of a plot progression ... only the grand progression and sometimes not even that.
I suggest you consider what orders or other reason the "enemy group" was attacking in the first place and go based on that. You could have the commander act as if to suddenly realize the party is not an enemy and give orders based on that. I think David gave the best answer (but I didn't read all that), and Kotath's answer is also reasonable.
In regards to Voras's comment, I disagree. Initiative does not mean both sides obviously intend to fight. When one party ambushes an unarmed peaceful party that only intends to defend and flee, that is initiative too.
I suggest you consider what orders or other reason the "enemy group" was attacking in the first place and go based on that. You could have the commander act as if to suddenly realize the party is not an enemy and give orders based on that. I think David gave the best answer (but I didn't read all that), and Kotath's answer is also reasonable.
In regards to Voras's comment, I disagree. Initiative does not mean both sides obviously intend to fight. When one party ambushes an unarmed peaceful party that only intends to defend and flee, that is initiative too.
Ok, fair enough, that I was not specific enough. Then there is the question of why initiative was rolled. I assumed, ini was roled in this specific example, because the NPCs were going to attack, thus their intention was hostile and aimed at attacking the PCs.
In the ambush example, the ambushers were planning on attacking and probably killing or capturing the peaceful party. In this case a suggestion that just says 'escort' would be unreasonable.
Thank you for insightful responses. :) I think the core problem boils down to defining what are reasonable and unreasonable requests so I have to put some thought on that. And how it would affect the circumstances if the target of Suggestion is already influenced by a certain mindset.
I would echo the comments in this thread, but just a word of caution.
Two important things:-
1) Be careful not to apply the normal interpretation of "reasonable" to this spell. That is not how the spell is interpreted in D&D. If someone asked someone to give an expensive warhorse to the first beggar they see, most would consider the suggestion unreasonable in the real world, however that is the exact example given within the spell description itself.
This is because the spell concerns itself with a subjective test as to whether the target would consider the suggestion against his nature entirely.
In the spell example, a knight gives the warhorse to a beggar. The example has been chosen deliberately. Knights are generally virtuous and chivalrous. A knight would therefore not deem the suggestion to go against their core, and therefore it is a success.
Suggestion has many creative uses. For example, a suggestion that would otherwise fail the reasonableness test, may pass provided some ground work has been carried out by the PC to harness a feasible motivation, or that the wording of the spell is twisted in such a way that it appears reasonable. Which goes on to the other point:-
2) The spell must only be worded so that it "sounds reasonable". If it does and the wisdom save fails, then the target must comply, irrespective that circumstances may later change to make that suggestion become potentially unreasonable. This is the magical effect of the spell and the operation of it RAW.
So I would end by saying that you should not bar the PCs from being able to take this spell. It makes for some great storytelling and utility. But it does require some thinking on the DM's part. Do not be overly harsh with the 'reasonableness' qualifier, but if the target would clearly find the suggestion absurd, then indeed, simply have it fail.
1) While this is true on important levels, presumably it is not something the knight would automatically do, the evidence being that they have not already done so. They still need to be given something to make it reasonable. Chivalry does not include any vows of poverty and most knights (and frankly, most riders) form bonds with their horses. Your suggestion is like telling someone to give away a family member.
I think the point the person you were replying to was trying to make is that the suggestion for a knight to give away their warhorse to the first beggar they meet is EXACTLY the example of a suggestion used in the PHB and thus would be expected to be considered a "reasonable" suggestion from the point of view of the knight.
"You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example. you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed."
A DM needs to keep this in mind when deciding what is "reasonable". The only constraint imposed by the spell text is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell."
The action only needs to "sound reasonable" not "be reasonable". In addition, if it is obviously harmful it will fail, but if it is obviously risky it won't.
Anyway, the point being made was that the DM should keep in mind that the spell text itself implies a very broad interpretation of what "sounds reasonable" means. Even a knight will give away their best friend and boon companion when affected by this spell. Perhaps the beggar needs it more?
"Surrender, you are our prisoners. Men, stand down, we are escorting these prisoners back to base."
As for the idea that once Initative has started, they are hostile, that is bullshit. Obviously the wizard wanted to use the spell before hostilities are started, initiative is there to decide who goes first, so how is the DM to decide if the wizard got the spell off before hostiilities? By using INITIATIVE. You win Init, you get to go before hostilities. Anything else is simply saying "Nuh ah, I don't like that spell, can't use it." like a child.
Nothing wrong with the spell suggestion. To use it that way, you need to:
Get the highest intitative
Have the commander fail the save
Have his men be persuaded
Have no one protections against this kind of thing (such as standing orders, etc.)
This was basically the players WINNING the fight. They had to win 3 different rolls in a roll to do it. Do not be scared of this happening again.
To stop this kind of thing a good military standing order would work - such as having the second in command be allowed to disobey and order "Open Fire" with the excuse of "Total strangers and I suspected a Charm spell of some kind"
"Surrender, you are our prisoners. Men, stand down, we are escorting these prisoners back to base."
As for the idea that once Initative has started, they are hostile, that is bullshit. Obviously the wizard wanted to use the spell before hostilities are started, initiative is there to decide who goes first, so how is the DM to decide if the wizard got the spell off before hostiilities? By using INITIATIVE. You win Init, you get to go before hostilities. Anything else is simply saying "Nuh ah, I don't like that spell, can't use it." like a child.
Nothing wrong with the spoell suggestion. To use it that way, you need to:
Get the highest intitative
Have the commander fail the save
Have his men be persuaded
Have no one protections against this kind of thing (such as standing orders, etc.)
This was basically the players WINNING the fight. They had to win 3 different rolls in a roll to do it. Do not be scared of this happening again.
To stop this kind of thing a good military standing order would work - such as having the second in command be allowed to disobey and order "Open Fire" with the excuse of "Total strangers and I suspected a Charm spell of some kind"
See, there we have a different approach to initiative. For me, initiative is reaction timing in an more or less synchronised time frame, that cannot be simulated with turn by turn approach how D&D does it. So, I would have the situation roleplayed out and when the narrative would allow the Wizard to get the Suggestion out before shit went down, fair play, I would handle that probably as a surprise round, in which only the Wizard can act, because he pulled that one off without even his teammates realizing. I let my players roll initiative typically with an intro like: The verbal exchange with the opposition was futile, the enemy commander shout 'Get them!' and the soldiers engage you, roll initiative.
I would really expect my players to come up with the Suggestion approach before initiative, if they want to try to avoid battle. So, in my group, the win would have been:
1. Roleplay the situation to sneak a Suggestion spell in (maybe rolling a Sleight of Hand/Deception for trying to cast the spell as hidden as possible).' 2. Have the commander fail the save 3. Have his men be persuaded
If something would have failed there, then I would roll for initiative. After that, 'stand down and escort us to the village' would not be reasonable anymore.
I would really expect my players to come up with the Suggestion approach before initiative, if they want to try to avoid battle. So, in my group, the win would have been:
1. Roleplay the situation to sneak a Suggestion spell in (maybe rolling a Sleight of Hand/Deception for trying to cast the spell as hidden as possible).' 2. Have the commander fail the save 3. Have his men be persuaded
If something would have failed there, then I would roll for initiative. After that, 'stand down and escort us to the village' would not be reasonable anymore.
Once more, you have a much too restrictive view of the "reasonable" word. First, it never says in the spell that it does only work out of combat, even if the fight had actually started, the spell would have worked at least on the commander, and he would have given the order to stand down. Whether he would have been obeyed by his troops is another matter, but he would have complied because this is MAGIC, forcing him to do things that he would not normally do. Once more, read the complete paragraph and you will realise that "reasonable" just means that it is not suicidal or directly harmful to him, THAT IS ALL, nothing more.
Once you understand how "reasonable" is used (and it is explicitly stated what it means in the very next sentence), you realise that initiative has nothing to do with it, it's much more simple.
If the commander already ordered the attack, as I wrote in my example, I would still disagree. I was only referring to this specific example that is discussed here. There are plenty of possibilities to use suggest in a combat situation. But, the specific example here, would not meet my requirements.
Just browsed a bit, what the devs seem to think are reasonable in combat suggestions. Something like 'a dragon is coming, flee!', 'your sword is cursed, don't touch it any longer/drop it' or if no blows have been traded yet 'we mean no harm, stop fighting'. I would also be totally ok with these. I only have a problem with a suggestion that directly contradicts something, the commander just ordered to do mere seconds before aka order an attack vs. order to stand down and escort the targets.
I would have maybe accepted the suggestion 'order your troops to take us into custody and bring us to the village', requiring the PCs to play along and not fighting back.
PS: the longer I analyse the suggestion, the more I think, the 'and escort them' part breaks the reasobable for me. Just the suggestion to order the troops to stand down again might be ok.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Suggesting a Paladin give a Steed to a beggar. He would clearly do this knowing full well that eventually he COULD recast the spell, summoning his Steed back. It is totally reasonably to do on both parts. He won't do that until the Duration of the spell ends, but he will almost certainly do so after the Suggestion ends.
Would this piss off the beggar? Perhaps. Would that matter to the Paladin after the suggestion ends? No.
Whatever your idea of Initiative is, it doesn't matter. In particular, the game simply does not and COULD not work that way because the wizard has to not just beat the DM to casting Suggestion, they must also beat the other players.
Half the point of initiative is to make sure that the faster CHARACTERS go before the slower characters, regardless of how fast the PLAYERS are. That is, say you are playing a family game: Mom (GM), 10 yr old Son (Wizard), Dad (Cleric), 14 yr old Daughter (Ranger). The Wizard is not punished for being not as mentally quick as the Cleric or Ranger.
This is a Role playing Game, not a free for all where the faster talker wins.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Suggesting a Paladin give a Steed to a beggar. He would clearly do this knowing full well that eventually he COULD recast the spell, summoning his Steed back. It is totally reasonably to do on both parts. He won't do that until the Duration of the spell ends, but he will almost certainly do so after the Suggestion ends.
Would this piss off the beggar? Perhaps. Would that matter to the Paladin after the suggestion ends? No.
Whatever your idea of Initiative is, it doesn't matter. In particular, the game simply does not and COULD not work that way because the wizard has to not just beat the DM to casting Suggestion, they must also beat the other players.
Half the point of initiative is to make sure that the faster CHARACTERS go before the slower characters, regardless of how fast the PLAYERS are. That is, say you are playing a family game: Mom (GM), 10 yr old Son (Wizard), Dad (Cleric), 14 yr old Daughter (Ranger). The Wizard is not punished for being not as mentally quick as the Cleric or Ranger.
This is a Role playing Game, not a free for all where the faster talker wins.
Lots of assumptions there. Never said, you need to be physically fast at the table. Do you roll initiative during 100% non combat narrative moments, where just the players are present or during discussions with NPC? Because, that's how I now have to think you are using initiative.
I can handle my table well enough to not let the talkative players take over every situation and let also the slower players react to situations. I use initiative only for combat like encounters where every bit of fast reaction counts.
Just browsed a bit, what the devs seem to think are reasonable in combat suggestions. Something like 'a dragon is coming, flee!', 'your sword is cursed, don't touch it any longer/drop it' or if no blows have been traded yet 'we mean no harm, stop fighting'. I would also be totally ok with these. I only have a problem with a suggestion that directly contradicts something, the commander just ordered to do mere seconds before aka order an attack vs. order to stand down and escort the targets.
Again, there is absolutely no reason for the effect to change depending on what the target has just been doing, this is MAGIC, not a simple discussion. Where it makes a difference is for the troops, who might be confused, but then again you have these multiple instances for example in movies where someone gives an order and retracts it when he realises that the target is different from what he expected. So he might say to the troops, I'm sorry, this is a mistake,I just realised we had special orders concerning these guys, and I had not recognised them.
It actually happened to me in a LARP, we were supposed to be nice to the students of a sorcery school, but we did not recognise them and they actually were dressed a it like our arch-enemies, so we clobbered them and then the survivors told us who they were and we said "whooops"....
The funny part is that this happened multiple times because, at night, it's sometimes hard to recognise who you are hitting so we had at least two instances of "sorry, you should have told us who you were:... *grin*
I would have maybe accepted the suggestion 'order your troops to take us into custody and bring us to the village', requiring the PCs to play along and not fighting back.
You are really confusing the effect of the spell on the commander and the effect of that effect on the troops.
PS: the longer I analyse the suggestion, the more I think, the 'and escort them' part breaks the reasobable for me. Just the suggestion to order the troops to stand down again might be ok.
Again, why are you fighting this ? What's so bad in the PCs completely avoiding a fight if they have been clever about it ? For the players, it's a double victory and as a DM, why do you care if your players are happy that they tricked their adversaries ?
Actually, I am not fighting this per se, just the timing. I would even be very clear with that and let the player rephrase the suggestion then, to get a better result.
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I am running Out of the Abyss for my group and yesterday they encountered a group of enemies. Roll Initiative. Wizard of the group rolls 22 and gets to be first in initiative order.
After this, the Wizard walks up within range of the commanding unit of the group, casts Suggestion and says "Command your troops to stand down and escort us to your village". Followed by me trying to find a loophole to escape the situation. After 5 minutes of thinking, I decide to roll a Persuasion contest between the commander and his troops on the commander's turn. The commander rolls an 18 and everyone except one of his troops roll low.
This would sound like a clever strategy, but the real problems arose when a faction that was meant to be friendly to the players arrived and both me and the players were struck numb with indecisiveness on how to resolve the situation. A massive fight with the players totally ignoring the situation for a good hour ensued as I wasn't really familiar with Mob Rules in the beginning.
So my questions are:
1) Would there have been a better way to handle the Suggestion as it was really only targeting one of the enemies and not all of them?
2) If not, would just describing how the group that the party is supposed to befriend just slays all the non-friendly enemies without a combat been too railroady?
3) If everything else fails, would banning Suggestion from my campaign be too much? Or would a mere combat ban be better?
4) If a ban is not a solution, what kind of homebrew rules have you been using to limit ridiculous outcomes for the spell?
All advice is greatly appreciated!
EDIT: Link to Suggestion spell description https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/suggestion
So, I would actually go this way:
As soon as you rolled initiative, the basic intention of both opposing parties is already obvious to both sides, as in hostile engagement.
The rules for the Suggestion spell say '...The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable...'
In the case, that combat already broke out and realistically all sides are starting to engage, even though in combat rounds the mage goes first, this action he suggested is not at all reasonable.
Suggestion is a very DM dependent spell. It is also a great spell. It allows for fun an enjoyable (and unexpected) plot developments which often means that you have roll with it when a character casts the spell.
In general, without more details, I think the use of Suggestion in this case really worked well.
The text from suggestion is "You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."
The suggestion was: ""Command your troops to stand down and escort us to your village"
In this case the DM needs to first determine if the suggestion was reasonable to the NPC hearing it. Is the NPC out for blood? Is their only goal to kill the PCs or would having them as prisoners be a fine alternative? Keep in mind that suggestion doesn't make them friendly, it doesn't make them follow orders except as covered by the suggestion. Does the NPC even have a village to escort the players to?
In this case, assuming that the NPC is fine with having a bunch of prisoners instead of dead PCs then there is no real reason why it wouldn't be a reasonable suggestion. Hey .. if the PCs WANT to surrender .. why not accept?
The next question is .. do the troops go along? This depends on the NPCs and their organization. Is the organization structured with the most powerful in charge and the others follow orders or risk death? In such an organization the leader could likely intimidate everyone else into following his orders even if the leader appeared to be taking orders from a PC. On the other hand, if the leader isn't that strong to start with or if the others know their orders were to kill the PCs then they might be harder to convince. In a military structure based on merit rather than force, the squad leaders/NCOs in the group would be much more likely to realize that the leader was under the influence of a spell and come up with a plan. In this case, the rest might appear to go along with the leader but decide to "escort" the PCs by providing an "honor" guard (i.e. surrounding them) and at an opportune moment ambushing them. The leader will stay out of it because they won't be attacking their own troops no matter what.
Honestly, the suggestion is a highly risky plan on the part of the PCs unless they know they might be safe at the village.
You then have this other group that appears to be opposed to the group "escorting" the PCs.
Keep in mind that the PCs don't know that you want them to ally with one group and not the other. The PCs don't have enough information to choose ... unless they do ... is one group drow/dark dwarves/orcs or some evil creature and the other more obviously aligned to someone who might be a more appropriate ally? Are there any indications or clues for the PCs, any foreshadowing? If not, the PCs could end up going either way with their support. They may choose the "wrong" side. This is D&D and a sandbox :) there is nothing wrong with that until the characters learn they choose incorrectly ... then you have to figure out a plot device that moves them towards the correct side and mends the fences. There are many plot devices that could make this possible. The PCs end up in a stockade at the "village" they are heading towards ... in a prison with some members of the other side they fought against .. they then learn the true story, their mistake, and a rescue force from the other side rescues both. It may be totally off script for the module (I don't know, I haven't played it) but you can probably come up with some scenario to move the plot in the direction you want it to go.
This is the kind of thing suggestion can do in terms of modifying an expected plot progression ... and it is FUN :).
However, if you want the second group to encounter the "escorts" and have a fight ... you don't need to roll dice for every NPC if the PCs decide to stay out of it. However, keep in mind that whoever wins might not be very happy with the PCs for staying on the sidelines while their friends die. Anyway, while the PCs aren't in the fight you can narrate the encounter between the two groups, describe some of the combats, describe various NPCs on both sides dying ... so that the players know how serious this is and that there may be consequences if they stay on the fence. If the outcome of the battle is in doubt (meaning you don't know if one force can defeat the other without the PCs then describe it that way and see if that helps them decide .. however, you do need to give the PCs some information (if it is available) so they can choose which side .. otherwise it is random chance).
Overall, I think the way it went was fine. I would not do anything to the suggestion spell ... but you need to give some more thought to reasonable in game consequences related to the use of the spell so that things flow logically from the effects of the Suggestion ... you don't need to usually preserve the details of a plot progression ... only the grand progression and sometimes not even that.
I suggest you consider what orders or other reason the "enemy group" was attacking in the first place and go based on that. You could have the commander act as if to suddenly realize the party is not an enemy and give orders based on that. I think David gave the best answer (but I didn't read all that), and Kotath's answer is also reasonable.
In regards to Voras's comment, I disagree. Initiative does not mean both sides obviously intend to fight. When one party ambushes an unarmed peaceful party that only intends to defend and flee, that is initiative too.
Ok, fair enough, that I was not specific enough. Then there is the question of why initiative was rolled. I assumed, ini was roled in this specific example, because the NPCs were going to attack, thus their intention was hostile and aimed at attacking the PCs.
In the ambush example, the ambushers were planning on attacking and probably killing or capturing the peaceful party. In this case a suggestion that just says 'escort' would be unreasonable.
Thank you for insightful responses. :) I think the core problem boils down to defining what are reasonable and unreasonable requests so I have to put some thought on that. And how it would affect the circumstances if the target of Suggestion is already influenced by a certain mindset.
I would echo the comments in this thread, but just a word of caution.
Two important things:-
1) Be careful not to apply the normal interpretation of "reasonable" to this spell. That is not how the spell is interpreted in D&D. If someone asked someone to give an expensive warhorse to the first beggar they see, most would consider the suggestion unreasonable in the real world, however that is the exact example given within the spell description itself.
This is because the spell concerns itself with a subjective test as to whether the target would consider the suggestion against his nature entirely.
In the spell example, a knight gives the warhorse to a beggar. The example has been chosen deliberately. Knights are generally virtuous and chivalrous. A knight would therefore not deem the suggestion to go against their core, and therefore it is a success.
Suggestion has many creative uses. For example, a suggestion that would otherwise fail the reasonableness test, may pass provided some ground work has been carried out by the PC to harness a feasible motivation, or that the wording of the spell is twisted in such a way that it appears reasonable. Which goes on to the other point:-
2) The spell must only be worded so that it "sounds reasonable". If it does and the wisdom save fails, then the target must comply, irrespective that circumstances may later change to make that suggestion become potentially unreasonable. This is the magical effect of the spell and the operation of it RAW.
So I would end by saying that you should not bar the PCs from being able to take this spell. It makes for some great storytelling and utility. But it does require some thinking on the DM's part. Do not be overly harsh with the 'reasonableness' qualifier, but if the target would clearly find the suggestion absurd, then indeed, simply have it fail.
I think the point the person you were replying to was trying to make is that the suggestion for a knight to give away their warhorse to the first beggar they meet is EXACTLY the example of a suggestion used in the PHB and thus would be expected to be considered a "reasonable" suggestion from the point of view of the knight.
"You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example. you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed."
A DM needs to keep this in mind when deciding what is "reasonable". The only constraint imposed by the spell text is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell."
The action only needs to "sound reasonable" not "be reasonable". In addition, if it is obviously harmful it will fail, but if it is obviously risky it won't.
Anyway, the point being made was that the DM should keep in mind that the spell text itself implies a very broad interpretation of what "sounds reasonable" means. Even a knight will give away their best friend and boon companion when affected by this spell. Perhaps the beggar needs it more?
Commander should have said:
"Surrender, you are our prisoners. Men, stand down, we are escorting these prisoners back to base."
As for the idea that once Initative has started, they are hostile, that is bullshit. Obviously the wizard wanted to use the spell before hostilities are started, initiative is there to decide who goes first, so how is the DM to decide if the wizard got the spell off before hostiilities? By using INITIATIVE. You win Init, you get to go before hostilities. Anything else is simply saying "Nuh ah, I don't like that spell, can't use it." like a child.
Nothing wrong with the spell suggestion. To use it that way, you need to:
This was basically the players WINNING the fight. They had to win 3 different rolls in a roll to do it. Do not be scared of this happening again.
To stop this kind of thing a good military standing order would work - such as having the second in command be allowed to disobey and order "Open Fire" with the excuse of "Total strangers and I suspected a Charm spell of some kind"
See, there we have a different approach to initiative. For me, initiative is reaction timing in an more or less synchronised time frame, that cannot be simulated with turn by turn approach how D&D does it. So, I would have the situation roleplayed out and when the narrative would allow the Wizard to get the Suggestion out before shit went down, fair play, I would handle that probably as a surprise round, in which only the Wizard can act, because he pulled that one off without even his teammates realizing. I let my players roll initiative typically with an intro like: The verbal exchange with the opposition was futile, the enemy commander shout 'Get them!' and the soldiers engage you, roll initiative.
I would really expect my players to come up with the Suggestion approach before initiative, if they want to try to avoid battle. So, in my group, the win would have been:
1. Roleplay the situation to sneak a Suggestion spell in (maybe rolling a Sleight of Hand/Deception for trying to cast the spell as hidden as possible).'
2. Have the commander fail the save
3. Have his men be persuaded
If something would have failed there, then I would roll for initiative. After that, 'stand down and escort us to the village' would not be reasonable anymore.
If the commander already ordered the attack, as I wrote in my example, I would still disagree. I was only referring to this specific example that is discussed here. There are plenty of possibilities to use suggest in a combat situation. But, the specific example here, would not meet my requirements.
Just browsed a bit, what the devs seem to think are reasonable in combat suggestions. Something like 'a dragon is coming, flee!', 'your sword is cursed, don't touch it any longer/drop it' or if no blows have been traded yet 'we mean no harm, stop fighting'. I would also be totally ok with these. I only have a problem with a suggestion that directly contradicts something, the commander just ordered to do mere seconds before aka order an attack vs. order to stand down and escort the targets.
I would have maybe accepted the suggestion 'order your troops to take us into custody and bring us to the village', requiring the PCs to play along and not fighting back.
PS: the longer I analyse the suggestion, the more I think, the 'and escort them' part breaks the reasobable for me. Just the suggestion to order the troops to stand down again might be ok.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Suggesting a Paladin give a Steed to a beggar. He would clearly do this knowing full well that eventually he COULD recast the spell, summoning his Steed back. It is totally reasonably to do on both parts. He won't do that until the Duration of the spell ends, but he will almost certainly do so after the Suggestion ends.
Would this piss off the beggar? Perhaps. Would that matter to the Paladin after the suggestion ends? No.
Whatever your idea of Initiative is, it doesn't matter. In particular, the game simply does not and COULD not work that way because the wizard has to not just beat the DM to casting Suggestion, they must also beat the other players.
Half the point of initiative is to make sure that the faster CHARACTERS go before the slower characters, regardless of how fast the PLAYERS are. That is, say you are playing a family game: Mom (GM), 10 yr old Son (Wizard), Dad (Cleric), 14 yr old Daughter (Ranger). The Wizard is not punished for being not as mentally quick as the Cleric or Ranger.
This is a Role playing Game, not a free for all where the faster talker wins.
Lots of assumptions there. Never said, you need to be physically fast at the table. Do you roll initiative during 100% non combat narrative moments, where just the players are present or during discussions with NPC? Because, that's how I now have to think you are using initiative.
I can handle my table well enough to not let the talkative players take over every situation and let also the slower players react to situations. I use initiative only for combat like encounters where every bit of fast reaction counts.
Actually, I am not fighting this per se, just the timing. I would even be very clear with that and let the player rephrase the suggestion then, to get a better result.