Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Specificaly after the bonus action rule section that only lists spells that take either an action or bonus action to cast. Specifically says you can cast the spell when the description says you can. Specifically.
Again, 2 camps and you’ll never get one to budge for the other. One reads into things the other just uses RAW. Use whichever ya like that makes sense to you.
I see. So, for example, using your interpretation of the language you've quoted, let's look at Feather Fall:
Level
1st
Casting Time
1 Reaction *
Range/Area
60 ft
Components
V, M **
Duration
1 Minute
School
Transmutation
Attack/Save
None
Damage/Effect
Exploration (...)
Choose up to five falling creatures within range. A falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. If the creature lands before the spell ends, it takes no falling damage and can land on its feet, and the spell ends for that creature.
* - which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls** - (a small feather or piece of down)
Do I need to know Feather Fall in order to cast it? It doesn't say I do, so no, I can just cast it whenever someone falls? Do I need an un-spent spell slot in order to cast it? It doesn't say I do, so no?What if I've already used my reaction, surely that means I can't cast it? It doesn't say so, so no....
Etc. etc. The fact that spells describe the triggers that allow you to use a reaction to cast them, but that that trigger doesn't restate general rules about action economy or spells, does not mean that each spell then operates as a specific exception excusing you for throwing out all of the Spellcasting rules that have been laid out in Chapter 10. If Feather Fall (or any other Reaction spell) could be cast in a turn regardless of whether a Bonus Action spell had also been cast that turn, it would say so, and in saying so, would indeed create a specific exception. Whether we're talking Feather Fall, Shield, Counterspell.... any of 'em, none of them invite you to disregard the rules provided in Chapter 10.
"You may cast this spell as a reaction, even if you cast another spell as a Bonus Action on this turn." That is what would be needed to create a specific exception to the Bonus Action Spells rule (either in a specific spell, or in the Reactions spells section in Chapter 10). We don't have that language. There is no exception.
Wasting your breath here, this has been discussed at length. Just agreeing with the OP that it’s dumb and there are 2 camps of how to read it. Your way doesn’t state anything SPECIFICALLY about reaction spells, only action and bonus. You can’t point to anything RAW that states your cannot specifically cast a reaction spell on your turn if you cast a bonus action spell. The only thing it specifically limits are action spells to a cantrip. Anything else is reading into it.
Not gonna try to change your mind here nor argue. Your examples are nonsensical and have no weight.
You are of the camp that if you cast a faster than action bonus action spell that it limits you to not being able to cast a reaction spell. Well unless you cast the reaction spell before the bonus action spell or cast the reaction spell immediately after or before your turn but not during. I’m of the camp that says a reaction spell can be cast at any time as long as the trigger is met including on your turn as identified in sage advice by the game designers.
I’m not gonna change your mind and not gonna try. Just saying there are two ways to go and go whichever way ya think makes most sense.
You are of the camp that if you cast a faster than action bonus action spell that it limits you to not being able to cast a reaction spell. Well unless you cast the reaction spell before the bonus action spell or cast the reaction spell immediately after or before your turn but not during. I’m of the camp that says a reaction spell can be cast at any time as long as the trigger is met including on your turn as identified in sage advice by the game designers.
Don't try to cite sage advice, there is no sage advice on this topic, only on the more general topic of reactions.
You are of the camp that if you cast a faster than action bonus action spell that it limits you to not being able to cast a reaction spell. Well unless you cast the reaction spell before the bonus action spell or cast the reaction spell immediately after or before your turn but not during. I’m of the camp that says a reaction spell can be cast at any time as long as the trigger is met including on your turn as identified in sage advice by the game designers.
Don't try to cite sage advice, there is no sage advice on this topic, only on the more general topic of reactions.
Literally states you can cast a reaction spell on your turn. Which breaks the economy of one leveled spell on a turn.
"Can you also cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it.
Literally states you can cast a reaction spell on your turn. Which breaks the economy of one leveled spell on a turn.
No such economy exists. The rule is special for bonus action spells.
Um no, states you can’t cast 2 leveled spells on a turn. That’s what this is about. If you cast a bonus action spell, you can’t cast a leveled spell as an action, only a cantrip. I just shortened it for clarity and brevity. Reactions are not part of the normal economy as you always have an action and a bonus action on a turn that you can use if you choose to. Reactions are only during specific triggers so you can’t just say you cast a reaction spell outside that trigger.
Um no, states you can’t cast 2 leveled spells on a turn.
No, it states you cannot cast a (different) leveled spell on the same turn as you cast a bonus action spell. This does not depend on whether the bonus action spell is leveled.
Literally states you can cast a reaction spell on your turn. Which breaks the economy of one leveled spell on a turn.
Pigeon, thank you for clarifying so effectively the source of your misunderstanding. I think that about wraps it up, folks.
I wish it did.
Going back to JC's Sage Advice entry. Why does his example make sense to any of you?
You ATTEMPT to cast Fireball but, you don't get to finish casting it. Why ? Because Counterspell says:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
If you don't want your Fireball interrupted, you make the saving throw. How does it make any sense that you can try to Counterspell the Counterspell while you first uncompleted spell hangs in limbo?
This is just DUMB! Another example of a poor answer at Sage Advice.
Sage Advice in general, and Sage Advice about Reaction spells in the middle of casting Action spells in particular, isn't really relevant to the question/observation that was posed in this thread ("If you cast a Bonus Action spell using a Spell Slot, can you also cast a Reaction spell using a Spell Slot that same turn, or are you really limited to just Cantrips that take an Action?"). Counterspelling a counterspell that tried to counter your fireball has nothing to do with the (controversial) restriction on Bonus Action spells.
Ya can’t cast fireball then quicken a second fireball as it’s not a cantrip. If a spell isn’t a cantrip then it’s a leveled spell.
I’ll break it down one more time:
The rule follows a VERY CLEAR and concise and sound logical syllogism:
1) If you cast a spell as a bonus action you can NOT cast another spell on your Turn.
2) You can disregard Rule #1 if (and only if) you cast a Cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 Action.
This a logical statement that has no ambiguity whatsoever. There’s no mention of “Action Economy”. There’s no confusion about whose turn it applies to. The exception is a “Cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 Action”, not “Actions can only be used to cast Cantrips”.
You can not avoid Rule #1 unless you meet the *specific* conditions of Rule #2. Rule #2 is the only exception to avoid Rule #1.
So when someone says “I want to Misty Step, then Fire Bolt the enemy”, you go through the flow. Rule #1 and Rule #2 applies, with #2 providing the exception to #1. You are therefore allowed to cast Fire Bolt.
Then their Fire Bolt gets Countered, and they say “I’ll Counterspell the Counterspell!”. Rule #1 applies, and because Counterspell does not meet the conditions of Rule #2, they cannot cast it. Rule #1 is absolute in this regard: “You can NOT cast another spell on your turn”.
There are 2 camps - those that read logically and consistently and those that homebrew their own ideas.
"Sage Advice in general, and Sage Advice about Reaction spells in the middle of casting Action spells in particular, isn't really relevant to the question/observation that was posed in this thread ("If you cast a Bonus Action spell using a Spell Slot, can you also cast a Reaction spell using a Spell Slot that same turn, or are you really limited to just Cantrips that take an Action?"). Counterspelling a counterspell that tried to counter your fireball has nothing to do with the (controversial) restriction on Bonus Action spells.
I see what your saying but, even if it doesn't apply 100% specifically, it is another "official" ruing that people are trying to use to leverage a point of view. What the JC entry supports is that Reaction spells ARE outside of the general spell jurisdiction of the Bonus Action Spell rules and the normal limitation of only being able(realistically) to cast one leveled spell on your turn. . Normally, the only thing that allows another leveled spell to be cast on your turn is Action Surge.
Quoted exactly what and who I was responding too, sorry.
I see what your saying but, even if it doesn't apply 100% specifically, it is another "official" ruing that people are trying to use to leverage a point of view. What the JC entry supports is that Reaction spells ARE outside of the general spell jurisdiction of the Bonus Action Spell rules and the normal limitation of only being able(realistically) to cast one leveled spell on your turn. . Normally, the only thing that allows another leveled spell to be cast on your turn is Action Surge.
Here are the assumptions you’re reading into:
-There is no rule about the number of leveled spells you can cast per turn. The only time they mentioned two leveled spells was to just refer BACK to the bonus action rule - but it certainly doesn’t mention anything about “limits of leveled spells per turn”.
- You imply that Reaction spells are “outside” other restrictions but that’s not what Sage Advice says either. This idea that Reactions are not part of your turn or somehow exempt from other rules is just an extrapolation people have made.
These are the reasons people can’t figure out this rule logically. They read into some other quotes and then make some assumptive rules that are not part of the rule set.
Reactions
Some spells can be cast as reactions. These spells take a fraction of a second to bring about and are cast in response to some event. If a spell can be cast as a reaction, the spell description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Specificaly after the bonus action rule section that only lists spells that take either an action or bonus action to cast. Specifically says you can cast the spell when the description says you can. Specifically.
Again, 2 camps and you’ll never get one to budge for the other. One reads into things the other just uses RAW. Use whichever ya like that makes sense to you.
I see. So, for example, using your interpretation of the language you've quoted, let's look at Feather Fall:
Do I need to know Feather Fall in order to cast it? It doesn't say I do, so no, I can just cast it whenever someone falls? Do I need an un-spent spell slot in order to cast it? It doesn't say I do, so no? What if I've already used my reaction, surely that means I can't cast it? It doesn't say so, so no....
Etc. etc. The fact that spells describe the triggers that allow you to use a reaction to cast them, but that that trigger doesn't restate general rules about action economy or spells, does not mean that each spell then operates as a specific exception excusing you for throwing out all of the Spellcasting rules that have been laid out in Chapter 10. If Feather Fall (or any other Reaction spell) could be cast in a turn regardless of whether a Bonus Action spell had also been cast that turn, it would say so, and in saying so, would indeed create a specific exception. Whether we're talking Feather Fall, Shield, Counterspell.... any of 'em, none of them invite you to disregard the rules provided in Chapter 10.
"You may cast this spell as a reaction, even if you cast another spell as a Bonus Action on this turn." That is what would be needed to create a specific exception to the Bonus Action Spells rule (either in a specific spell, or in the Reactions spells section in Chapter 10). We don't have that language. There is no exception.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wasting your breath here, this has been discussed at length. Just agreeing with the OP that it’s dumb and there are 2 camps of how to read it. Your way doesn’t state anything SPECIFICALLY about reaction spells, only action and bonus. You can’t point to anything RAW that states your cannot specifically cast a reaction spell on your turn if you cast a bonus action spell. The only thing it specifically limits are action spells to a cantrip. Anything else is reading into it.
Not gonna try to change your mind here nor argue. Your examples are nonsensical and have no weight.
You are of the camp that if you cast a faster than action bonus action spell that it limits you to not being able to cast a reaction spell. Well unless you cast the reaction spell before the bonus action spell or cast the reaction spell immediately after or before your turn but not during. I’m of the camp that says a reaction spell can be cast at any time as long as the trigger is met including on your turn as identified in sage advice by the game designers.
I’m not gonna change your mind and not gonna try. Just saying there are two ways to go and go whichever way ya think makes most sense.
Don't try to cite sage advice, there is no sage advice on this topic, only on the more general topic of reactions.
Literally states you can cast a reaction spell on your turn. Which breaks the economy of one leveled spell on a turn.
"Can you also cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it.
No such economy exists. The rule is special for bonus action spells.
Aww...you mean I got excited for nothing?
Um no, states you can’t cast 2 leveled spells on a turn. That’s what this is about. If you cast a bonus action spell, you can’t cast a leveled spell as an action, only a cantrip. I just shortened it for clarity and brevity. Reactions are not part of the normal economy as you always have an action and a bonus action on a turn that you can use if you choose to. Reactions are only during specific triggers so you can’t just say you cast a reaction spell outside that trigger.
No, it states you cannot cast a (different) leveled spell on the same turn as you cast a bonus action spell. This does not depend on whether the bonus action spell is leveled.
Nope
Ya can’t cast fireball then quicken a second fireball as it’s not a cantrip. If a spell isn’t a cantrip then it’s a leveled spell.
Pigeon, thank you for clarifying so effectively the source of your misunderstanding. I think that about wraps it up, folks.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I wish it did.
Going back to JC's Sage Advice entry. Why does his example make sense to any of you?
You ATTEMPT to cast Fireball but, you don't get to finish casting it. Why ? Because Counterspell says:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
If you don't want your Fireball interrupted, you make the saving throw. How does it make any sense that you can try to Counterspell the Counterspell while you first uncompleted spell hangs in limbo?
This is just DUMB! Another example of a poor answer at Sage Advice.
Sage Advice in general, and Sage Advice about Reaction spells in the middle of casting Action spells in particular, isn't really relevant to the question/observation that was posed in this thread ("If you cast a Bonus Action spell using a Spell Slot, can you also cast a Reaction spell using a Spell Slot that same turn, or are you really limited to just Cantrips that take an Action?"). Counterspelling a counterspell that tried to counter your fireball has nothing to do with the (controversial) restriction on Bonus Action spells.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You can't cast a quickened firebolt and a fireball in the same turn either.
I’ll break it down one more time:
The rule follows a VERY CLEAR and concise and sound logical syllogism:
1) If you cast a spell as a bonus action you can NOT cast another spell on your Turn.
2) You can disregard Rule #1 if (and only if) you cast a Cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 Action.
This a logical statement that has no ambiguity whatsoever. There’s no mention of “Action Economy”. There’s no confusion about whose turn it applies to. The exception is a “Cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 Action”, not “Actions can only be used to cast Cantrips”.
You can not avoid Rule #1 unless you meet the *specific* conditions of Rule #2. Rule #2 is the only exception to avoid Rule #1.
So when someone says “I want to Misty Step, then Fire Bolt the enemy”, you go through the flow. Rule #1 and Rule #2 applies, with #2 providing the exception to #1. You are therefore allowed to cast Fire Bolt.
Then their Fire Bolt gets Countered, and they say “I’ll Counterspell the Counterspell!”. Rule #1 applies, and because Counterspell does not meet the conditions of Rule #2, they cannot cast it. Rule #1 is absolute in this regard: “You can NOT cast another spell on your turn”.
There are 2 camps - those that read logically and consistently and those that homebrew their own ideas.
This is wrong. See above.
Or that whole thing isn’t correct lol
If you cast a spell with a level as an action or bonus action then you can only cast a cantrip as the other.
Simple. Applies to actions and bonus actions.
"Sage Advice in general, and Sage Advice about Reaction spells in the middle of casting Action spells in particular, isn't really relevant to the question/observation that was posed in this thread ("If you cast a Bonus Action spell using a Spell Slot, can you also cast a Reaction spell using a Spell Slot that same turn, or are you really limited to just Cantrips that take an Action?"). Counterspelling a counterspell that tried to counter your fireball has nothing to do with the (controversial) restriction on Bonus Action spells.
I see what your saying but, even if it doesn't apply 100% specifically, it is another "official" ruing that people are trying to use to leverage a point of view. What the JC entry supports is that Reaction spells ARE outside of the general spell jurisdiction of the Bonus Action Spell rules and the normal limitation of only being able(realistically) to cast one leveled spell on your turn. . Normally, the only thing that allows another leveled spell to be cast on your turn is Action Surge.
Quoted exactly what and who I was responding too, sorry.
Here are the assumptions you’re reading into:
-There is no rule about the number of leveled spells you can cast per turn. The only time they mentioned two leveled spells was to just refer BACK to the bonus action rule - but it certainly doesn’t mention anything about “limits of leveled spells per turn”.
- You imply that Reaction spells are “outside” other restrictions but that’s not what Sage Advice says either. This idea that Reactions are not part of your turn or somehow exempt from other rules is just an extrapolation people have made.
These are the reasons people can’t figure out this rule logically. They read into some other quotes and then make some assumptive rules that are not part of the rule set.
This would be a homebrew rule I’m sure some would play with.